weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jan 28, 2015 18:34:25 GMT -5
I don't subscribe to HBO but I hope the History channel will eventually pick it up. I really would like to see it.
As an early boomer growing up in Europe WWII was always close by. We played in old concrete German bunkers, (mostly just) boys would scrounge around for ammunition along the railroad --- left overs from a blown up ammunition train --- to build their own home-made rockets. It's a miracle no one got killed that way. There were families we were not allowed to associate with (collaboraters with the Germans), and then there were some very scary "strange" people that we were told to be always nice and polite to, never mind how terrifying they were. As I grew up I slowly came to the realization that (a) the "strange" people were camp survivors but no one talked about that, and (b) everyone that was more than 6 years older than I was had been in that war including all my teachers. After college I worked as a chemist and at least 2 of my coworkers were Nacht und Nebel camp survivors. There was a third one that might have been in a camp for different reasons Jew/gypsy/homosexual? I wouldn't know, and no one talked.
It took a very long time before talking about this became acceptable and I think a lot of that had to do with the wish of my parents generation to protect their children from fear. They knew first hand how fast a childhood could be over and how harsh things could become. So for us there was not only no discussions about first hand experiences, we also did not dive under our desks to prepare for an eventual nuclear attack Life for a short while was - at least for us - made innocent/carefree again. I knew a man, a Belo Russian who collaborated with the Germans. He was told that if he didn't cooperate, they would torture and kill his wife and two children. He drank himself to death because of the guilt. What do you do in a situation like that? What do you DO?
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jan 28, 2015 20:06:34 GMT -5
I have a friend who was there today, and she was posting and tweeting as the speeches were happening. She said she was most moved by the elderly woman (camp survivor) who got up and said: "We need an Eleventh Commandment: Thou Shalt Not Be A Bystander." Was it Eva Kor..I know she does a lot of speaking about the Holocaust and Auschwitz in particular. I don't know who the speaker was . My (American) friend is a college professor, and she was there at the ceremonies with a group of her students. She was just posting (FB) and tweeting (Twitter) to let us all back home know what was happening.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Jan 30, 2015 1:41:49 GMT -5
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Jaguar
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Post by Jaguar on Jan 30, 2015 2:09:37 GMT -5
Auschwitz - My sister-in-law was born here, yes during the war. God only knows what her Polish mother had to do to keep her alive.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Jan 30, 2015 5:58:42 GMT -5
Along this same topic , this thread...Most of us know who Oscar Schindler was..For those who don't, Oscar was a German businessman during WW2 who ended up saving many Jews from the extermination camp, movie and book were done about him.. Anyone know who Chiune Sugihara Is? I didn't, not a clue, but while on a search on something entirely different I came across this fellow..a Japanese diplomat , low level, in Lithuania during WW2 who it's estimated gave out between three to four thousand Visas to Jews , mostly Polish , and is credited with saving as many as 10,000 { families traveled on one family visa} . He acted against his superiors orders which could have dire consequences for himself and family, even fatal...It's been estimated there are 40,000 decendents today from those given the visas and who survived the war. .Point is, some people say that at that time and even today during real bad times there is little a individual can do to fight certain bad things because the bad guy is to strong..yet it seems there are some who have the guts and courage to do the right thing..and it doesn't hold that we will ever know who they are...Well now I know of at least one and his name is Chiune Sugihara. A rightiouse man in my book....a very7 special person. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiune_Sugihara
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jan 30, 2015 9:52:41 GMT -5
Along this same topic , this thread...Most of us know who Oscar Schindler was..For those who don't, Oscar was a German businessman during WW2 who ended up saving many Jews from the extermination camp, movie and book were done about him.. Anyone know who Chiune Sugihara Is? I didn't, not a clue, but while on a search on something entirely different I came across this fellow..a Japanese diplomat , low level, in Lithuania during WW2 who it's estimated gave out between three to four thousand Visas to Jews , mostly Polish , and is credited with saving as many as 10,000 { families traveled on one family visa} . He acted against his superiors orders which could have dire consequences for himself and family, even fatal...It's been estimated there are 40,000 decendents today from those given the visas and who survived the war. .Point is, some people say that at that time and even today during real bad times there is little a individual can do to fight certain bad things because the bad guy is to strong..yet it seems there are some who have the guts and courage to do the right thing..and it doesn't hold that we will ever know who they are...Well now I know of at least one and his name is Chiune Sugihara. A rightiouse man in my book....a very7 special person. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiune_SugiharaI know who Sugihara was. The are a number of unexpected folks honored by Israel as Righteous Among the Nations. List of Righteous Among the Nations by country
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jan 30, 2015 21:26:54 GMT -5
The author's Jewish credentials notwithstanding, my point stands: anti-semitism is on the rise; and it is on the rise precisely because of mass muslim immigration to the West, not to escape islamist shitholes and assimilate, but to colonize the West and spread the shit around.
And before anyone says anything- yes, I'm aware this man has some unflattering things to say about my own faith- and I'm OK with that because I can accept criticism without losing my mind and committing mass murder.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Jan 30, 2015 22:03:43 GMT -5
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Jan 30, 2015 22:22:46 GMT -5
The author's Jewish credentials notwithstanding, my point stands: anti-semitism is on the rise; and it is on the rise precisely because of mass muslim immigration to the West, not to escape islamist shitholes and assimilate, but to colonize the West and spread the shit around. And before anyone says anything- yes, I'm aware this man has some unflattering things to say about my own faith- and I'm OK with that because I can accept criticism without losing my mind and committing mass murder. WOW......Have to say it Paul...powerful and he hit the nail on the head..who is he anyway...? I also have to add...while he says the Anti Semitism has disappeared from Europe for the most part since the end of WW2...has it really? Oh the out in the open kind, yes..except for the minority skin heads and the like..but for the rest of the folks, while not all, still way too many who have a skepticism toward the tribe...whether they tribe members are active in the tribe or not...and to step forward to confront out loud these folks who look to make trouble..say" STOP, enough..we don't want that here...not really happening , definitely not comfortable in doing that France , who I believe has the biggest Jewish foot print in Europe today, over 500,000 and surprising to me in a way...considering the active round up for deportation East by Vichy police of the French Jews BEFORE Adolf and friends asked for them...also the antagonism toward the State of Israel under DeGaul..almost a state of War...Hey, one can go back to Alfred Drefus {http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreyfus_affair in the late 1800's..the antisemitism at government level..high up as well held by the general public..as far as the argument of what can one do when under such a totarian powerful foot , see below.. {consider little Denmark , over 95% of their Jews spirited to Sweden in a night and a few days..when there is a will there can be a way...not that all Danes were in love with these people , but they were considered by the Danes Danes..and they couldn't understand why these Danish citizens had to be treated differently..so away they were sent and to Adolf and friends..a finger { possible by some, the whole arm..}and a take that you piece of %$&#}.. 7000 French Jews plus left for Israel this last year as immigrants and it is expected to double that this year and these are some very capable and smart people who are leaving...some already making their mark in Israel . France can not really afford to lose these type of people.. especially with the economic problems they { and it seems the rest of Europe } is going through right now.. As much as I personally have questions and disagreements with the present government of Israel over many of their policies internally and regarding the territories..when I see what is happening in France, Europe , the UK, in general, actually throughout the world..I understand a bit more how important the State of Israel is to the Jew who is not a citizen of the State..a safe strong haven for he , she and family..and my criticism of the State and it's leadership grows more muted and silent..and tends to lean toward the feeling, thank the good lord it is there , Israel, as a Jewish State..
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2015 23:39:58 GMT -5
Auschwitz - My sister-in-law was born here, yes during the war. God only knows what her Polish mother had to do to keep her alive.
Sophie's Choice in a million variations?
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Jan 31, 2015 0:24:56 GMT -5
The author's Jewish credentials notwithstanding, my point stands: anti-semitism is on the rise; and it is on the rise precisely because of mass muslim immigration to the West, not to escape islamist shitholes and assimilate, but to colonize the West and spread the shit around. And before anyone says anything- yes, I'm aware this man has some unflattering things to say about my own faith- and I'm OK with that because I can accept criticism without losing my mind and committing mass murder. Ok giving it a shot. Within 15 seconds if you do not agree you are prejudiced, stupid, or ignorant.
Islamophobia next minute.
Jews are either stupid or ignorant.
You are a racist.
Muslims hate Jews.
If you disagree you are probably a jew hater and member of Hamas
You are stupid and you hate
Suicidal stupidity and Jews are used and abused and placate Muslims
Jew flight
Islam hates Jews
As opposed to general Jew hating
It's the Muslims not the far right
It is coming for you
Muslims hate Jews so much the claim the holocaust is a lie
Jews are the new Jews
Filthy, poisonous Muslim hatred
Quite a nice guy you align with- this is really what you believe? What the hell is wrong with you?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jan 31, 2015 9:26:58 GMT -5
Pot, meet kettle.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2015 20:26:54 GMT -5
The Never Again meme sounds so nice unfortunately I sometimes don't believe it. I know it wouldn't happen again in the same way. It would be quicker. Instantaneous almost with one Iranian Nuke most likely. Then we can all console ourselves and say that we just really didn't believe them when they said they wanted to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jan 31, 2015 20:43:48 GMT -5
The Never Again meme sounds so nice unfortunately I sometimes don't believe it. I know it wouldn't happen again in the same way. It would be quicker. Instantaneous almost with one Iranian Nuke most likely. Then we can all console ourselves and say that we just really didn't believe them when they said they wanted to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. And Iran would have maybe one second (if that) to pat themselves on the back.
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Jaguar
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Post by Jaguar on Jan 31, 2015 20:46:31 GMT -5
The Never Again meme sounds so nice unfortunately I sometimes don't believe it. I know it wouldn't happen again in the same way. It would be quicker. Instantaneous almost with one Iranian Nuke most likely. Then we can all console ourselves and say that we just really didn't believe them when they said they wanted to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. And Iran would have maybe one second (if that) to pat themselves on the back. A single nanosecond.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2015 20:47:14 GMT -5
I don't know Tenn. I just see things playing out a lot differently in some ways and in others pretty much the same.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2015 20:51:58 GMT -5
The Never Again meme sounds so nice unfortunately I sometimes don't believe it. I know it wouldn't happen again in the same way. It would be quicker. Instantaneous almost with one Iranian Nuke most likely. Then we can all console ourselves and say that we just really didn't believe them when they said they wanted to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. And Iran would have maybe one second (if that) to pat themselves on the back. Who would take them out? And which Iranian sponsored countries taken out with them? How much of the ME would get vaporized? It would take a lot more to do that than little tiny Israel.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jan 31, 2015 20:54:00 GMT -5
And Iran would have maybe one second (if that) to pat themselves on the back. A single nanosecond. twenty nukes launched by Israel alone would be landing on Iran before Iran's one or two nukes land on Israel. Iran is not stupid. .
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jan 31, 2015 20:55:37 GMT -5
And Iran would have maybe one second (if that) to pat themselves on the back. Who would take them out? And which Iranian sponsored countries taken out with them? How much of the ME would get vaporized? It would take a lot more to do that than little tiny Israel.
Seriously?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2015 20:57:36 GMT -5
Yes. Seriously. It could be all over for Israel PDQ.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jan 31, 2015 21:01:15 GMT -5
Yes. Seriously. It could be all over for Israel PDQ. And maybe it would be all over for Israel. But it would also be all over for Iran too. Do you not think other countries have nukes programmed to hit Iran too?
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jan 31, 2015 21:04:55 GMT -5
Whatever they launch is going to have to be something that can penetrate the Iron Dome, David's Sling, Arrow II (and Arrow III coming up), and the proposed Iron Beam defense systems. It's not quite like shooting ducks in a barrel.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2015 21:06:24 GMT -5
Yes. Seriously. It could be all over for Israel PDQ. And maybe it would be all over for Israel. But it would also be all over for Iran too. Do you not think other countries have nukes programmed to hit Iran too? I guess I can just x my fingers then and hope Iran is as smart as you think they are.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jan 31, 2015 21:11:05 GMT -5
And maybe it would be all over for Israel. But it would also be all over for Iran too. Do you not think other countries have nukes programmed to hit Iran too? I guess I can just x my fingers then and hope Iran is as smart as you think they are. A person or country cannot appreciate their victory if they are dead and destroyed too. That's called a Pyrrhic victory. No one wins.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2015 21:19:59 GMT -5
Whatever they launch is going to have to be something that can penetrate the Iron Dome, David's Sling, Arrow II (and Arrow III coming up), and the proposed Iron Beam defense systems. It's not quite like shooting ducks in a barrel. Nukes. No need to shoot ducks in barrel. They will most likely have them before too long. Maybe Israel will stop them 1st. We can only hope like Tenn said they are smart enough not to use them against Israel. Israel's defense system would not save Israel.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jan 31, 2015 21:22:10 GMT -5
Whatever they launch is going to have to be something that can penetrate the Iron Dome, David's Sling, Arrow II (and Arrow III coming up), and the proposed Iron Beam defense systems. It's not quite like shooting ducks in a barrel. Nukes. No need to shoot ducks in barrel. They will most likely have them before too long. Maybe Israel will stop them 1st. We can only hope like Tenn said they are smart enough not to use them against Israel. Israel's defense system would not save Israel.
Israel has a slam-bang defense system. I don't know what makes you so sure it won't work. Israel tends not to do things that don't work.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2015 21:22:50 GMT -5
Nukes. No need to shoot ducks in barrel. They will most likely have them before too long. Maybe Israel will stop them 1st. We can only hope like Tenn said they are smart enough not to use them against Israel. Israel's defense system would not save Israel.
Israel has a slam-bang defense system. I don't know what makes you so sure it won't work. Israel tends not to do things that don't work. mmhmm
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Jaguar
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Post by Jaguar on Jan 31, 2015 21:27:15 GMT -5
Yup I have no doubt that any nation going up against Israel, would seriously find itself on the losing end.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 1, 2015 2:37:55 GMT -5
The Never Again meme sounds so nice unfortunately I sometimes don't believe it. I know it wouldn't happen again in the same way. It would be quicker. Instantaneous almost with one Iranian Nuke most likely. Then we can all console ourselves and say that we just really didn't believe them when they said they wanted to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. It's been said that two of those weapons would basically do in that country...also including Palestinians on West bank...many Jordanians too I would expect...especially when you figure fallout... Back in Eisenhower day when it was suspected Israel was working to acquire such weapons...it was said of all the countries' at that time who would probably actually use the weapon if felt really under the gun.., Israel was the first one that came to mind.....It's been suggested that they have as many as 250 of these things..the newer submarines that they have acquired recently from Germany and many Israeli designs have been put into these boats ..they do the same with aircraft purchased from US , own designs...the torpedo tubes are of a extra large size and the only reason for such a design is to accomadate cruise missles that they have designed that will carry these type weapons...and naturally they have their own air force. In two of their wars..one being the Yom Kipper war. They did assemble and had on aircraft a few of these weapons ..just in case..If any one can remember..Yom Kipper war was a touchy thing for a while..very much so, with the Egyptians over the canal and Syrian tanks , a few thousand , ready to enter the lower Israeli country side before they were stopped.. The point being...they most likely have many of these weapons....they would/ will use them if country is threatened..remember, no land to fall back on and regroup....and I believe use them in quantity..Iran would become a country of glass most likely, the Persians gone forever for all intent and purpose..
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