EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Jan 23, 2015 7:24:24 GMT -5
www.foxnews.com/us/2015/01/23/colorado-baker-faces-complaint-for-refusing-anti-gay-message-on-cake/
Didn't see this one coming
Marjorie Silva, owner of Denver's Azucar Bakery, is facing a complaint from a customer alleging she discriminated against his religious beliefs.
According to Silva, the man who visited last year wanted a Bible-shaped cake, which she agreed to make. Just as they were getting ready to complete the order, Silva said the man showed her a piece of paper with hateful words about gays that he wanted written on the cake. He also wanted the cake to have two men holding hands and an X on top of them, Silva said.
She said she would make the cake, but declined to write his suggested messages on the cake, telling him she would give him icing and a pastry bag so he could write the words himself. Silva said the customer didn't want that.
In a statement to the television station, Jack said he believes he "was discriminated against by the bakery based on my creed." "As a result, I filed a complaint with the Colorado Civil Rights Division
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jan 23, 2015 8:12:59 GMT -5
It'll be interesting to see if the door swings both ways.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jan 23, 2015 9:45:05 GMT -5
It'll be interesting to see if the door swings both ways. It won't. Unlike the other case, this baker did offer to make the cake (in the shape of the bible). What she would not do is put whatever hateful writing (according to the baker it was hateful) on the cake but did offer the customer the icing and the icing bag to write his message on it himself. In the other case, when the baker found out what the cake was for, the baker refused to make the cake, let alone ice a message on it. In both cases, a cake is a cake. One offered to make the cake but declined to ice a message on it. The other baker simply refused to make the cake, period. Nor did that baker offer to let the gay couple put their own message on it.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jan 23, 2015 9:56:35 GMT -5
It'll be interesting to see if the door swings both ways. It won't. Unlike the other case, this baker did offer to make the cake (in the shape of the bible). What she would not do is put whatever hateful writing (according to the baker it was hateful) on the cake but did offer the customer the icing and the icing bag to write his message on it himself. In the other case, when the baker found out what the cake was for, the baker refused to make the cake, let alone ice a message on it. In both cases, a cake is a cake. One offered to make the cake but declined to ice a message on it. The other baker simply refused to make the cake, period. Nor did that baker offer to let the gay couple put their own message on it. No stone left unturned, no hair left unsplit...
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jan 23, 2015 10:08:01 GMT -5
I don't think it would hold up because it's not against the law to refuse this guy's business.
It was against the law for the Washington bakery to refuse to make the cake for the lesbian couple.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jan 23, 2015 10:14:48 GMT -5
I don't think it would hold up because it's not against the law to refuse this guy's business. It was against the law for the Washington bakery to refuse to make the cake for the lesbian couple. . The baker offered to make the bible-shaped cake. The baker would not ice the message. The baker did offer the customer the icing and pastry bag to write the message himself. The other baker offered the gay couple nothing, including not offering to make a cake. The two cases are completely dissimilar.
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fairlycrazy23
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Post by fairlycrazy23 on Jan 23, 2015 11:40:55 GMT -5
I wonder if this is just a trick to be able to say 'see we aren't treated the same' or something.
I agree with Tennesseer, this shouldn't hold up.
My opinion is of course that a business can refuse anybody for any reason, so to me both cases are fundamentally the same.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jan 23, 2015 11:45:57 GMT -5
To me, they are different. It's fairly simple in my simple mind. One customer was all about hate (hateful words). The other one was about love. To me, that's a big difference. Being forced to make a cake with hateful words is worlds away from being forced to make a cake celebrating love.
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fairlycrazy23
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Post by fairlycrazy23 on Jan 23, 2015 11:48:29 GMT -5
However, I don't agree with this type of law at all, this singles out a single group of people to specifically treat them differently Lawmaker Wants to Allow Businesses to Deny Service to Gays & Ignore Same-Sex Marriage RulingHB 1597 disagree with this because it singles out a group of people HB 1598 disagree with the because I think it is nuts, but slightly conflicted because parents should be generally be able to do as they please HB 1599 disagree with this because again it singles out one group of people
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fairlycrazy23
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Post by fairlycrazy23 on Jan 23, 2015 11:50:51 GMT -5
To me, they are different. It's fairly simple in my simple mind. One customer was all about hate (hateful words). The other one was about love. To me, that's a big difference. Being forced to make a cake with hateful words is worlds away from being forced to make a cake celebrating love. To each cake maker they are the same, being forced to so something they don't want to do.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jan 23, 2015 11:54:23 GMT -5
To each cake maker they are the same, being forced to so something they don't want to do.
I agree.
But unless the Washington baker was living under a rock, she knew she was breaking the law. If I remember right they considered the couple "friends" so they were counting on them not running to the media. It backfired on them.
In this case there is no law breaking. So while anyone can sue I can't see how it would stand up in court.
If this guy was a protected class and it's against the law to refuse to write his message on a cake, then yes the cases should be treated the same.
I'm not against businesses being able to refuse service, you should just be aware of the potential consequences when you do so.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jan 23, 2015 11:56:10 GMT -5
I highly doubt the courts would have ruled that the baker had to make a cake for a same-sex wedding, had that cake included a message of hate like, "I hate straight people and hope they all die a horrible death." There is a difference in my mind. We all have to do things we don't want to do at some point in our lives. Being a business owner doesn't exclude you from that and, in fact, gives you a whole new set of rules to live by.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jan 23, 2015 12:01:24 GMT -5
Personally, I think its all kind of a waste of time - either case. If I went in to a bakery that, say, didn't like women and ordered a cake that they refused to make because I was female, I'd just hike my girlie ass down the street to somebody who would. End of story.
BUT....I have never been descriminated against and that's easy for me to say. If that became a regular practice, it would probably piss me off a little more each time until I did decide to make a big deal out of it.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jan 23, 2015 12:03:49 GMT -5
I highly doubt the courts would have ruled that the baker had to make a cake for a same-sex wedding, had that cake included a message of hate like, "I hate straight people and hope they all die a horrible death." Oh I agree. It's just that this being Current Events I can predict the direction this thread is going to go. The distinct difference between the two cases is one was in a state that considered the customer a protected class, this one isn't.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jan 23, 2015 12:08:47 GMT -5
I agree, Drama. I wasn't even looking that far into it, but you are right. I was looking at the simplicity of it all (in my mind) which is the best I can do on a Friday.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 23, 2015 12:10:34 GMT -5
I have no problem with them being basically the same and there be a different rule for each. But then, I don't pray to the God "Consistency".
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jan 23, 2015 12:13:58 GMT -5
The guy who wanted the cake and having the bakery write his hate message on it played the wrong hand.
If he wanted a case equal or near equal to the Denver baker who refused to bake a cake for the gay couple because they told the baker it was for a gay wedding, then he should have told the baker to leave the top of the cake blank and also tell the cake was for a 'God Hates Gays' church function he was organizing.
Now we will never know if this baker would have or would not have baked the cake for him. And by taking his case to the public, he has tipped off all the bakers in states with such non-discrimination laws pertain to commerce on how to handle such a situation as the guy presented.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jan 23, 2015 15:07:02 GMT -5
boskone stop preaching common sense, that's not how it works in America.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Jan 23, 2015 16:18:49 GMT -5
The guy who wanted the cake and having the bakery write his hate message on it played the wrong hand. If he wanted a case equal or near equal to the Denver baker who refused to bake a cake for the gay couple because they told the baker it was for a gay wedding, then he should have told the baker to leave the top of the cake blank and also tell the cake was for a 'God Hates Gays' church function he was organizing. Now we will never know if this baker would have or would not have baked the cake for him. And by taking his case to the public, he has tipped off all the bakers in states with such non-discrimination laws pertain to commerce on how to handle such a situation as the guy presented. Yep.
A cake is just a cake- until you put messages on it. Funny thing about religion- there is a group that fits any belief under the sun so that is a pretty lame reason to refuse to sell a product. However refusing to write offensive speech is valid- or refusing to bake a penis cake- whatever. Not splitting hairs, it is splitting a tree trunk.
I wonder how it would fare if he requested a Koran cake? I see some opinions shifting on that one-but you can't. Religious discrimination is a double edged sword. Eventually the case pops up where it is a stalemate- so who gets the win on that one- the discriminated or the discriminator when both are relying on religious protections? Cake fight?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2015 16:40:06 GMT -5
It won't. Unlike the other case, this baker did offer to make the cake (in the shape of the bible). What she would not do is put whatever hateful writing (according to the baker it was hateful) on the cake but did offer the customer the icing and the icing bag to write his message on it himself. In the other case, when the baker found out what the cake was for, the baker refused to make the cake, let alone ice a message on it. In both cases, a cake is a cake. One offered to make the cake but declined to ice a message on it. The other baker simply refused to make the cake, period. Nor did that baker offer to let the gay couple put their own message on it. No stone left unturned, no hair left unsplit... No cherry picked stories left un-posted.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jan 23, 2015 18:10:17 GMT -5
To me, they are different. It's fairly simple in my simple mind. One customer was all about hate (hateful words). The other one was about love. To me, that's a big difference. Being forced to make a cake with hateful words is worlds away from being forced to make a cake celebrating love. You're honestly arguing that a business owner should be forced to do something (s)he doesn't want to do if and only if it's "about love"? That's even worse than Tenn's splitting hairs on baking the cake versus frosting the cake. You people go to such unnatural lengths to maintain your asinine double standards, I swear sometimes it's not even worth the keystrokes to reason with you.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 23, 2015 18:16:45 GMT -5
To me, they are different. It's fairly simple in my simple mind. One customer was all about hate (hateful words). The other one was about love. To me, that's a big difference. Being forced to make a cake with hateful words is worlds away from being forced to make a cake celebrating love. You're honestly arguing that a business owner should be forced to do something (s)he doesn't want to do if and only if it's "about love"? That's even worse than Tenn's splitting hairs on baking the cake versus frosting the cake. You people go to such unnatural lengths to maintain your asinine double standards, I swear sometimes it's not even worth the keystrokes to reason with you. What is asinine about the double standard created here?
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jan 23, 2015 18:17:53 GMT -5
Excuse me, Virgil. The only person who is being asinine is you. I didn't say anything one way or the other except that it was two different situations in my mind. Unlike you, I don't think my opinion is the law. I don't care if you like or don't like what I have to say. Save your precious keystrokes for those who kiss your ass. I'm not one of them. But you can sure as hell kiss mine.
This was a civil conversation until you entered it with your sanctimonious bullshit and insults. I find it quite common for a thread to go quickly downhill after you start participating.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jan 23, 2015 18:34:10 GMT -5
Oh Snap!
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Jan 23, 2015 18:39:53 GMT -5
It'll be interesting to see if the door swings both ways. It won't. Unlike the other case, this baker did offer to make the cake (in the shape of the bible). What she would not do is put whatever hateful writing (according to the baker it was hateful) on the cake but did offer the customer the icing and the icing bag to write his message on it himself. In the other case, when the baker found out what the cake was for, the baker refused to make the cake, let alone ice a message on it. In both cases, a cake is a cake. One offered to make the cake but declined to ice a message on it. The other baker simply refused to make the cake, period. Nor did that baker offer to let the gay couple put their own message on it. SO the other baker could have given the gay couple ingredients for a cake and said, "bake the damn cake yourself?"
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jan 23, 2015 18:41:49 GMT -5
I'm not surprised by the OP. When researching something else for P&M or current events I happened on a couple strong right leaning web-sites. There's been a push to hit up bakeries to find something they would reject so they could claim discrimination. To me there is a big difference between refusing to sell a product you have to someone based on their sexual orientation versus demanding a product be customized using hate speech. They weren't refused the cake. The bakery just refused to write what they wanted but allowed them ways to do it themselves. But that wasn't acceptable because the goal was a news story and uproar.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2015 18:44:37 GMT -5
Exactly. If they provided hate cakes to everyone else, but not you, maybe you could claim discrimination... But they don't have to sell hate cakes if it's nots etching they offer...
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jan 23, 2015 18:45:16 GMT -5
Call me names all you want. You contrived an irrational basis to justify a double standard. You posted it for all to see in a "hate cake" thread where any reasonable person would expect criticism. I gave it to you.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2015 18:45:34 GMT -5
I don't believe you can force a business to be involved in hate speech.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jan 23, 2015 18:48:56 GMT -5
I don't believe you can force a business to be involved in hate speech. And therein lies the rub (as the Brits would say). The person who wanted the cake does not believe it is "hate speech." It is "a sincerely held religious belief."
Or he's just an a-hole, take your pick.
I agree this whole thing should have been a non-issue.
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