Oil Shale

[domeasingold]

The oil yo-yo is starting again. Whereas Libya's problems are affecting the worlds supply line of oil. As we have seen, there is no quick fix to wean us off our oil addiction. However, when the topic of four dollar a gallon or more gas at the pump becomes todays main issue conversations turn to the alternatives.
We could all discuss the pros and cons of electric vehicles and we have made some headway into that market. But what happened to the oil shale reserves under North and South Dakota purported to contain somewhere upto 160 billion barrels of oil?
This reporting has been going on for more than two years or whenever the last price gouge occured.
Has there been truly any progress in extracting this reserve or so far is it just speculation?
What companies are involved in this and should we be looking at those companies for investment opportunities?

What say you?

[Virgil Showlion]

Has there been truly any progress in extracting this reserve or so far is it just speculation?

I have a friend who works as a corrosion specialist for SAGD sites all over the world. He might know something about it.

I'm meeting with him next week and so I'll ask him what he knows about shale oil in North Dakota.

As for electric vehicles, they don't eliminate the need for coal, oil, and natural gas. They just move the production and distribution centers from one place to another.

[neohguy]

Hard to get investment for expensive to extract oil when you have prices fluctuating between $35-145/bbl

[domeasingold]

Thanks for your reply Virgil. Some where on this board someone mentioned this topic but I also remember reading about it not to long ago. Seems like alot of hype if it is in fact real?

What I meant mentioning Electric vehicles was that was the one "cornerstone" of the Obama Administrations so called energy policy to shift to alternate technologies to lessen oil consumption in this country. From my recent research I have learned we are a long way to replacing internal combustion as a propulsion source.
I have been working on drive systems for buses and short haul trucks. Even these vehicles do not come close to replacing entire fleets in the next five years.

[Virgil Showlion]

Energy wise, the process is a net minus (i.e. takes more energy to produce a given quantity than the amount of energy you get out).

If this is true, then there's 0% chance of shale oil extraction. People may be greedy and panic-driven at times, but I refuse to believe we'll collectively be that stupid.

Incidentally, I realize that ethanol does meet this description. But expect ethanol production to go out the window if/when an energy shortage switches from boondoggle to genuine crisis.

[domeasingold]

Out the window: do you mean like not viable anymore?

[Virgil Showlion]

What I meant mentioning Electric vehicles was that was the one "cornerstone" of the Obama Administrations so called energy policy to shift to alternate technologies to lessen oil consumption in this country. From my recent research I have learned we are a long way to replacing internal combustion as a propulsion source.

I always raise a few points in debates about electric vehicle debates. sun beat me to the REE and distribution problems. Additionally:

• Electric cars are demonstrably more efficient. But efficiency improvements simply limits the need for oil (sometimes as marginally as 7-15%). A lot of people seem to think that the electricity comes from giant pinwheels. Now, introduce nuclear into the equation along with electric vehicles, and you have some genuine net reduction in oil consumption.
  
• Crude oil is used for a ridiculous number of things other than fuel. Fuel turns out to be about 11% of the total use, and a good chunk of that is for industrial vehicles and equipment that can't be easily converted to electrical.

ETA:

Out the window: do you mean like not viable anymore?

Precisely. As in, when people start losing their livelihoods, they'll be less likely to turn a blind eye to the fact that a simple analysis proves ethanol puts out less energy than it takes in.

[domeasingold]

Virg, I agree on all points.
FYI, In addition to buses we are working on a AWD tractor w/electric power. I still don't know how the hell they are going to run a six mile extention cord out to the cornfield.

[wyouser]

only 6 miles?? Have you been to a wheat field in North Dakota?

[domeasingold]

OK. 12 miles.

[tyfighter3]

ostseis.anl.gov/guide/oilshale/index.cfm

Here is some good reading on Shale Oil. They say it takes around $60 a barrel to produce.

[wyouser]

Good article ty

[tyfighter3]

Yes, but you MINE it, then take it to a facility to process where you have water and the means to keep the surrounding area clean. Probably not much different than the Coal Mines that are running already in the WEST. I don't know much about the Super Heated way to get it out of the ground in liquid form. Still has a way to go yet.

[bimetalaupt]

Mar 4, 2011 18:36:17 GMT -5 tyfighter3 said:

Yes, but you MINE it, then take it to a facility to process where you have water and the means to keep the surrounding area clean. Probably not much different than the Coal Mines that are running already in the WEST. I don't know much about the Super Heated way to get it out of the ground in liquid form. Still has a way to go yet.

sounds like we will see a huge water system from the Great Lakes to Mojave sooner then later.. btw..with enough nuclear power this would be un-needed for energy but great for food production. Nice to have pure food for the world of starving minds.

Just look at what water has done for New York.. All of it come from the Crooten Reserve.. Same could be said for Great West !!!! ;D ;D

Just a thought,
Bruce

I hear super heated N2 from the core of very hot Nuclear core works just a well.. It is those little ceramic elements that made the N2 glow!!!! at 10,000 F!!!

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[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Not a good thing in my opinion.

If you only look at half the story maybye it isn't a good option. Here is the rest of the story..

www.oilsands.alberta.ca/reclamation.html

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Go to the site and look at the video. It's big business as well.

[kman]

Very true sun...it is a violent past...some were here already....some were here as property of others..and yet all believe in finding ...or fighting for common ground...and for what? ...A more perfect union would be the correct answer.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

I'm sure they do. However, a lot of them believe that smoking the tobacco from the cigarette companies is the same as smoking sacred tobacco. I'm not saying that it has always been clean. I'm saying it's start. We need to push more. There are developments. I believe that the land is tested and certified properly because the govt of Canada loves to hand out fines. The silver lining is as the shale is "developed" in ND you will be able to take advantage of years of development in ways to get it out of the ground with less of an impact.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Another process the have is apparently taking water from salt water sources deep under the ground that isn't drinkable. They also have found a way to harden all the elements in the tailings ponds and leave the water to use it over again. The oil companies love that. Keep charging the same and use 2/3 less water per barrel. Plus they have apparently found something they can do with the hardened material that produces another element that can be used.

[dumdeedoe]

Bah... fill old mines with water,plant some pine trees around them, Stock trout and bass..... people would love them........

[bimetalaupt]

Mar 4, 2011 17:29:14 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

What I meant mentioning Electric vehicles was that was the one "cornerstone" of the Obama Administrations so called energy policy to shift to alternate technologies to lessen oil consumption in this country. From my recent research I have learned we are a long way to replacing internal combustion as a propulsion source.

I always raise a few points in debates about electric vehicle debates. sun beat me to the REE and distribution problems. Additionally:

• Electric cars are demonstrably more efficient. But efficiency improvements simply limits the need for oil (sometimes as marginally as 7-15%). A lot of people seem to think that the electricity comes from giant pinwheels. Now, introduce nuclear into the equation along with electric vehicles, and you have some genuine net reduction in oil consumption.
  
• Crude oil is used for a ridiculous number of things other than fuel. Fuel turns out to be about 11% of the total use, and a good chunk of that is for industrial vehicles and equipment that can't be easily converted to electrical.

ETA:

Out the window: do you mean like not viable anymore?

Precisely. As in, when people start losing their livelihoods, they'll be less likely to turn a blind eye to the fact that a simple analysis proves ethanol puts out less energy than it takes in.

You must be talking about Dented corn.. It takes a lot of Methane to make the NH3 used to make make starch. B.Braunii also can make a lot of things we now use oil for. Problem is how to make this work with limited waters.. :oSome Bacteria also produce CHO like Spirolina.

I think the next generation bacterial development will produce a lot of Butanol from ;D ;D ;)bio-mass like the left over algae or stalks from corn. It is interesting to see the amount of oil butanol will bring with it as a frack agent. Now we will be short of CO2 for algae development. We could see a lot more CO2 in the very near future from Iceland.

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[vl]

The answer lies more in restructuring how and why we need to get from here to there and getting rid of waste like single-occupant vehicles altogether.
At the onset of alternatives prospects- we had suggested a multi-format transit mode. The train runs on bio-diesel down semi-elevated tracks with Geo-thermal rods embedded in the design to keep them clear in in-climate weather, with brackets reaching up that incorporate wind and solar collectors. The idea is-- whatever we do in design from now on, it has to either maintain, generate or surplus power as a component of its purpose and function.
My youngest daughter expects to go into Environmental Architecture- she values that future housing and buildings generate power as fixed structures that are components of collective grids. Your house should be readily capable of recharging your swappable batteries from energy collected while you're at work.

[The Virginian]

sounds like we will see a huge water system from the Great Lakes to Mojave sooner then later.

Now that would be an impressive project! Desrt property would suddenly become waterfront property.

[The Virginian]

that proposed water pipeline

Pipeline? I was thinking in terms of a waterway spilling into a giant lake in the middle of the desert. A vacation resort that would make Lake Tahoe look like a pond! Maybe a few Hydro Electric dams along the way!

Oh wait - I forgot it might endanger some recluse Cactus that is on the verge of extinction.!