andi9899
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 6, 2011 10:22:29 GMT -5
Posts: 30,426
|
Post by andi9899 on Dec 19, 2014 12:44:40 GMT -5
That poor baby. And their family is going to suffer ths mistake for the rest of their lives. Since when is it protocol to kick a door down and just start throwing grenades around without knowing how many people, if any are in a home? I'm not in law enforcement, so I don't know all their procedures, but surely that's not the way they were trained. Not grenades... flash bang. Yes they are trained to do this. What the hell are they supposed to do while serving a warrant? Knock on the door politely while the crack den arms themselves and starts shooting? Knock Knock... hello Mr. Drug Dealer. Are you home? Yoohoo... No worries you take your time destroying evidence, loading your gun and taking position. We'll just wait out here while until you are ready. What you need some time to prepare your human shields, OK, take your time don't rush on our account. I don't believe I said anything to that effect. But going in and just throwing explosives around? I know they are not hand grenades like in the military, but come on. Why not go in there and just start searching for the guy? They already had the element of surprise on their side.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,142
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Dec 19, 2014 12:52:16 GMT -5
i don't think criminals are the problem at all, actually. every country has criminals. but not all countries beat the shit out of them, attack them with tanks and grenades, or kill them. we need to do better than our criminals. and we need to do it now. time to stop making excuses. So... what's the answer how do you do this? i have already said it twice. community policing. but that was kinda vague, so i would include this, as well: 1) a focus on DE-ESCALATION. what we see in common with all of these events is that they escalate violence. it doesn't have to be that way. in the case of the 12 year old kid waving the gun, would it have hurt to park the car a block away for FIVE SECONDS to see what the kid was doing? would it have hurt to have used a megaphone from behind the car, telling him to lay the gun down? how many hundreds of things could have been done to NOT KILL HIM? 2) DE-MILITARIZATION. communities don't want people patrolling their neighborhood in tanks and riot gear. this is not f(*king Beirut. so, the Obama administration can take their military surplus and do the civilized thing with it: either give it to our allies, or cut it into scrap.
so, those are three really simple things that would help matters a LOT.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,142
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Dec 19, 2014 13:24:06 GMT -5
How many people can be shot in 5 seconds? this kid was shot in LESS THAN TWO SECONDS. that was my point. apparently you missed it. How about people not wave guns around?? At what point do we absolve people from using common sense. i EXPECT the police to be the grown ups in the room. particularly when the gun waiver is 12 fucking years old! JESUS, MAN!Hey if I wave this gun around, I might get shot by police as a threat. Really Is this that much of a stretch now? FFS... do I get to blame the electric company for my electrocution when I decide to take a bath with my toaster? I mean there's natural consequences to actions. Waving a gun around = threat (TO EVERYONE INCLUDING THE GUN WAVER) not exactly a hard concept to get. FFS is right. terminating the life of a 12 year old because he is waiving around a toy is pretty f-ing retarded. if the police can't do better than gunning him down in two seconds, then it is THEM that should have their guns taken, imo.2) DE-MILITARIZATION. communities don't want people patrolling their neighborhood in tanks and riot gear. this is not f(*king Beirut. so, the Obama So, what protection do the police get in the streets? cops don't need tanks, bro. sorry, they just don't. you can't SERIOUSLY be arguing for that. or can you?Do we go back to the whistle? Does that really stop the maltov cocktails? your reducio ad absurdums are getting tiresome. have a nice day.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,142
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Dec 19, 2014 13:25:10 GMT -5
It is two different worlds. i disagree. we live in one world, and i can prove it.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,142
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Dec 19, 2014 13:36:14 GMT -5
I think 12 years old is old enough to understand cause and effect. Are 12 year old stupid at times and don't think things through... yes. Can 12 year olds be active gunman... i see, so 12 year old waiving TOY GUN gets two seconds to live. got it. we will never in a billion years agree on that one, bro.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,142
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Dec 19, 2014 13:38:21 GMT -5
You may think my arguments are absurd, but you still haven't answered my question. Does a police car stop a brick, maltov cocktail, or from being flipped? Now can the military style vehicle protect from all of those? Yes or No, If no, then please tell me why you don't think the police deserve to be protected from those things? for the same reason the 12 year old should never have had that toy gun.
|
|
EVT1
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 16:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 8,596
|
Post by EVT1 on Dec 19, 2014 13:56:10 GMT -5
Mmhmm, I think this is the biggest problem. The obvious answer is for criminals to stop committing crimes and/or to stop being a threat to the public and the police. However, that's never going to happen. The criminals have gotten worse, more brazen, to be a bigger threat etc. And the police have ramped up response accordingly. I think one thing that the general public loses sight of is the day in day out dealings with criminals. The police now have to act based on the lowest common denominator. Is every person out there gunning for them, no. Are enough people gunning for them that everyone needs to be considered a potential threat, yes I think so. Take the comment about the baby stuff in the front yard. In a rational world, Yes that should be strong indicator that a child is inside. But in the criminal world, it's not. How many stories do you see where people shoplift via the baby carriage? How many news reports have you seen where the drugs and guns were hidden in the baby crib? How many stories do we see where baby is used as a human shield? So I ask, what laws should the police enforce? Should they not conduct search warrants because someone might get hurt? Should they not be allowed to use flash bangs? Should we disarm the police? To all of the armchair quarterbacks out there... what is your solution No- they should not be allowed to raid houses over drug offenses like this- it is ridiculous.
In fact no-knock warrants and flash bangs should only be used in extreme circumstances- not run of the mill drug arrests. And they need to make damn sure when they do they have the address and have an idea who else may be inside. Had about enough of these heavy handed tactics that are completely unnecessary.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,142
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Dec 19, 2014 14:08:24 GMT -5
i see, so 12 year old waiving TOY GUN gets two seconds to live. got it. we will never in a billion years agree on that one, bro. What did that toy gun look like? One of the pictures was taken from GIS of Toy gun, the other was taken from GIS Toy gun Cleveland This Or This: what does a dead 12 year old look like? we are done, Sroo. i don't give a crap what the gun looks like, mmkay? i really don't. this kid was NOT a threat. period.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 4, 2024 23:23:35 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2014 14:14:54 GMT -5
What did that toy gun look like? One of the pictures was taken from GIS of Toy gun, the other was taken from GIS Toy gun Cleveland This Or This: what does a dead 12 year old look like? we are done, Sroo. i don't give a crap what the gun looks like, mmkay? i really don't. this kid was NOT a threat. period. Of course he wasn't a threat. But could he just possibly be percieved as one?
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,142
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Dec 19, 2014 14:20:04 GMT -5
what does a dead 12 year old look like? we are done, Sroo. i don't give a crap what the gun looks like, mmkay? i really don't. this kid was NOT a threat. period. Of course he wasn't a threat. But could he just possibly be percieved as one? he is dead. that is all the proof i need that he was PERCEIVED as a threat. here is the problem: he wasn't. so, my whole point in this is that we need to find a way to make the perception match reality. i had a suggestion for how that could have been done. the police could have parked a block away and observed the kid. the police could have pulled up in such a way that the car was a shield and talked to him. ANY of those things would have saved the life of a PRE TEEN BOY. you guys want me to give the cops a break. sorry, i am not going to do that. the cops were responsible for ASSESSING THE SITUATION. they failed. a kid died. they are not getting a pass for that from me.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 4, 2024 23:23:35 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2014 14:48:58 GMT -5
Of course he wasn't a threat. But could he just possibly be percieved as one? he is dead. that is all the proof i need that he was PERCEIVED as a threat. here is the problem: he wasn't. so, my whole point in this is that we need to find a way to make the perception match reality. i had a suggestion for how that could have been done. the police could have parked a block away and observed the kid. the police could have pulled up in such a way that the car was a shield and talked to him. ANY of those things would have saved the life of a PRE TEEN BOY. you guys want me to give the cops a break. sorry, i am not going to do that. the cops were responsible for ASSESSING THE SITUATION. they failed. a kid died. they are not getting a pass for that from me. Of course they shouldn't get a pass on the mistake. But that doesn't mean they committed an indictable crime either. They have to assess situations day after day, weeks, months, years, decades. They're not perfect and mistakes will be made. Humans under real stress, err way more often than we will, verbally discussing it here.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,142
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Dec 19, 2014 15:07:48 GMT -5
Sroo and 23: you guys are both making stuff up. i don't have time for it.
for me there is only what happened. not what you imagine MIGHT have happened.
here is what i IMAGINE might have happened: a 12YO would have a lifetime to learn from that mistake. a family might have their son still alive for Christmas.
i can't help it if your imaginations are scarier than mine.
Merry Christmas. i am done here.
|
|
happyhoix
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Oct 7, 2011 7:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 20,901
|
Post by happyhoix on Dec 19, 2014 15:20:24 GMT -5
Sure they could. --- Actually back to the original raid. I tried to follow up on the story, but not surprisingly the details were a bit thin. From what I understand, an undercover police office bought drugs from the house on the previous day from the suspect.. didn't catch his name, we'll call him Bob. Based on that they asked for a search warrant for the house They were granted a search warrant They served the search warrant Tragic situation occurs Bob was not at the residence at the time They later arrested Bob for possession What I didn't see, was that they had knowledge that there was a baby in the house. I also didn't see where they purposely threw the flash-bang at the baby. I more than agree it was a tragic thing to happen, but I don't understand how police following their procedures (which I might add were put in place for everyone's safety) justify the police bashing. Sroo, I agree with everything above, but as the baby was accidentally injured in the course of a police raid/investigation shouldn't the county/city/state be paying the medical bills? I don't think it was a criminal or negligent act though. I thought the taxpayer always picked up the tab when someone was injured or property was damaged by police. I know I've seen where they pay for damage to doors when they break into the wrong home. I assume their insurance picks up the tab when a police cruiser strikes someone during a car chase. Why isn't the county picking up the medical tab for this baby?
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 4, 2024 23:23:35 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2014 15:21:32 GMT -5
Sroo and 23: you guys are both making stuff up. i don't have time for it. for me there is only what happened. not what you imagine MIGHT have happened. here is what i IMAGINE might have happened: a 12YO would have a lifetime to learn from that mistake. a family might have their son still alive for Christmas. i can't help it if your imaginations are scarier than mine. Merry Christmas. i am done here. Says the guy who created the 7 at once, concealed carry shooting, of his make believe baby niece, in a store robbery, in a different thread. Who's imagination is scarier? See how unpleasant it is to be on the receiving side of a violent hypothetical. Additional edit; <<< Nov 21, 2014 at 8:39pm djpolldancer said: you want to know why i really have a problem with this? let's say i am in a room with (7) people with CWP's. i am minding my own business, pushing my infant niece around in a stroller. suddenly, a guy pulls a gun on a clerk and tells him to put the money in a bag. in the next instant, all seven of the folks with guns are firing on him. bullets are flying everywhere, and my niece is caught in the crossfire and killed. i dislike cops. anyone who knows my posting knows it.>>> This post says there's more to your opinion than the dislike of "our" imaginations. I'm thinking that in about another year I'll have you on community patrol in your neighborhood with a hot loaded .45 ACP looking for that first gun toting felon to bag. (Merry Christmas )
|
|
gooddecisions
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:42:28 GMT -5
Posts: 2,418
|
Post by gooddecisions on Dec 19, 2014 15:48:30 GMT -5
That poor baby. And their family is going to suffer ths mistake for the rest of their lives. Since when is it protocol to kick a door down and just start throwing grenades around without knowing how many people, if any are in a home? I'm not in law enforcement, so I don't know all their procedures, but surely that's not the way they were trained. Not grenades... flash bang. Yes they are trained to do this. What the hell are they supposed to do while serving a warrant? Knock on the door politely while the crack den arms themselves and starts shooting? Knock Knock... hello Mr. Drug Dealer. Are you home? Yoohoo... No worries you take your time destroying evidence, loading your gun and taking position. We'll just wait out here while until you are ready. What you need some time to prepare your human shields, OK, take your time don't rush on our account. What did they do the day before when they purchased drugs from the perp? If a knock on the door couldn't work, why not just wait until he comes out and then arrest him. It seems like there are plenty of options that don't involve explosives and injuring innocent babies. This story breaks my heart. That poor baby.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 4, 2024 23:23:35 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2014 16:01:23 GMT -5
Not grenades... flash bang. Yes they are trained to do this. What the hell are they supposed to do while serving a warrant? Knock on the door politely while the crack den arms themselves and starts shooting? Knock Knock... hello Mr. Drug Dealer. Are you home? Yoohoo... No worries you take your time destroying evidence, loading your gun and taking position. We'll just wait out here while until you are ready. What you need some time to prepare your human shields, OK, take your time don't rush on our account. What did they do the day before when they purchased drugs from the perp? If a knock on the door couldn't work, why not just wait until he comes out and then arrest him. It seems like there are plenty of options that don't involve explosives and injuring innocent babies. This story breaks my heart. That poor baby. They then approached a judge for a warrant after they had proof of a drug sale? Regardless of stance on police operations, I don't think there's anyone here who likes or wants innocents to be hurt.
|
|
gooddecisions
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:42:28 GMT -5
Posts: 2,418
|
Post by gooddecisions on Dec 19, 2014 16:13:08 GMT -5
If an undercover police officer was able to walk right up to him and buy drugs, why couldn't he walk right up to him and arrest him? Once they have him in handcuffs, go in with their warrant and collect the drugs. Why is there a need for a covert military style raid at all in situations like this?
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 4, 2024 23:23:35 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2014 16:39:07 GMT -5
If an undercover police officer was able to walk right up to him and buy drugs, why couldn't he walk right up to him and arrest him? Once they have him in handcuffs, go in with their warrant and collect the drugs. Why is there a need for a covert military style raid at all in situations like this? Because the people selling are usually the bottom rung nobodies and will be replaced the next day or hour. Arresting the doorman, results in getting only that. Getting a warrant to take down a drug house which takes more than a day before sale, gets you product and often multiple arrests with higher ups taken into custody. I don't know the real drug addiction fatalities and lives ruined by drugs as a number, but I bet it's way higher than the occasional police operational error.
|
|
gooddecisions
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:42:28 GMT -5
Posts: 2,418
|
Post by gooddecisions on Dec 19, 2014 16:42:33 GMT -5
If an undercover police officer was able to walk right up to him and buy drugs, why couldn't he walk right up to him and arrest him? Once they have him in handcuffs, go in with their warrant and collect the drugs. Why is there a need for a covert military style raid at all in situations like this? I don't even know how to respond to this line of thinking. Drug operations usually have more than one person involved. Do you think if it were as easy as you suggest here that the police wouldn't already be doing that? Well, in my dense mind they would have been casing the place for weeks and would have known there were children in there.
|
|
EVT1
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 16:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 8,596
|
Post by EVT1 on Dec 19, 2014 16:48:07 GMT -5
Well of course preserving evidence is more important that keeping everyone alive
This is just more of the mentality of shoot first ask questions later- just bust in the house, don't plan too hard or anything, don't do any research, all in the name of stopping some drug sales that will never be stopped no matter how many doors they kick in. Pointless.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 4, 2024 23:23:35 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2014 16:57:12 GMT -5
Well of course preserving evidence is more important that keeping everyone alive
This is just more of the mentality of shoot first ask questions later- just bust in the house, don't plan too hard or anything, don't do any research, all in the name of stopping some drug sales that will never be stopped no matter how many doors they kick in. Pointless. It's got a point, you just don't agree with it. I see it as preventing just one more person getting started down the road to addiction. Drugs are like that 300 round magazine, not needed.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,142
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Dec 19, 2014 18:25:58 GMT -5
Sroo and 23: you guys are both making stuff up. i don't have time for it. for me there is only what happened. not what you imagine MIGHT have happened. here is what i IMAGINE might have happened: a 12YO would have a lifetime to learn from that mistake. a family might have their son still alive for Christmas. i can't help it if your imaginations are scarier than mine. Merry Christmas. i am done here. What am I making up? THIS:
So what do you tell the parents of the people (kids even) who are shot while you are hanging back and assessing the situation?
that didn't happen, nor does it reflect the circumstances of the shooting.ETA.. ok in my 12 year old boy example I said New Mexico instead of Nevada. Is that it? i told you i was done, Sroo. please respect that. tyia. ditto for you, 23. i never said the action was illegal. but it damned well should be, imo. now, seriously, please stop responding to my posts (on this thread). there is nothing to be gained in this discussion, and so i won't be checking for replies AGAIN.
|
|
EVT1
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 16:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 8,596
|
Post by EVT1 on Dec 19, 2014 21:31:10 GMT -5
Well of course preserving evidence is more important that keeping everyone alive
This is just more of the mentality of shoot first ask questions later- just bust in the house, don't plan too hard or anything, don't do any research, all in the name of stopping some drug sales that will never be stopped no matter how many doors they kick in. Pointless. You do realize the police are just enforcing the laws on the books... if you maintain that the law is the problem. Then get it changed. Until then it's their job to make drug arrests. Of course- but there are a lot of ways to enforce the laws- a lot of discretion available. Whether drug laws are the core problem is another thread.
Real simple- a no knock raid should NEVER be used on a search warrant, in fact they should only be used to apprehend dangerous and violent people.
If the current police and detectives cannot make drug cases and arrests without this kind of action then we need to get rid of them and hire some that can.
|
|
OldCoyote
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 10:34:48 GMT -5
Posts: 13,449
|
Post by OldCoyote on Dec 19, 2014 22:25:22 GMT -5
I don't even know how to respond to this line of thinking. Drug operations usually have more than one person involved. Do you think if it were as easy as you suggest here that the police wouldn't already be doing that? Well, in my dense mind they would have been casing the place for weeks and would have known there were children in there. That's because the police are lying, If they had been watching this place like they said, they would have known that fact!
|
|
Shooby
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2013 0:32:36 GMT -5
Posts: 14,782
Mini-Profile Name Color: 1cf04f
|
Post by Shooby on Dec 19, 2014 22:31:36 GMT -5
You must have missed my concession in the other thread. I gave up...we should just disband all the police departments. We don't really need them. They don't do any good. They are just filled with thugs who want to hurt babies and old people. How is expecting high standards a bad thing ?NoNobody says to disband. How ridiculous. We absolutely should hold them to high standards.
|
|
OldCoyote
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 10:34:48 GMT -5
Posts: 13,449
|
Post by OldCoyote on Dec 19, 2014 22:36:33 GMT -5
So Sroo, In your mind is there any possible situation where the police might be wrong, Or if the police are operating under their definition of a law no matter how stretched their definition is,
They could never be wrong, Is that what I understand?
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 4, 2024 23:23:35 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2014 23:06:26 GMT -5
The "standards" that some want remind me of the scene in Robocop 2 (yeah, I know it's a movie... work with me here)... where he's got all these directives that just drive him so crazy he electrocutes himself to delete them all.
|
|
EVT1
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 16:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 8,596
|
Post by EVT1 on Dec 19, 2014 23:34:46 GMT -5
Well it doesn't take genius level police work to figure out who is buying or selling drugs- or to figure out a better way to arrest them.
My opinion- if the wrong house gets raided someone is fired period. So why not here? Because if no one is fired then that means there is no accountability. We can't have that.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 4, 2024 23:23:35 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2014 4:52:57 GMT -5
I can agree with firing for a mistake of this nature. Not jail, because it WAS a mistake... but definitely fired.
|
|
Shooby
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2013 0:32:36 GMT -5
Posts: 14,782
Mini-Profile Name Color: 1cf04f
|
Post by Shooby on Dec 20, 2014 7:06:11 GMT -5
How is expecting high standards a bad thing ?NoNobody says to disband. How ridiculous. We absolutely should hold them to high standards. There are high standards and impossible standards. Its impossible to expect police to do their homework and check facts? Its impossible to ask police to not escalate situations involving petty crimes and minor offenses? If the airline or healthcare industries operated in this fashion we would shut them down until we thoroughly investigated and enacted new procedures and protocol. Not just shrug with a big whoopsie of oh I didnt mean to kill or almost kill your kid. Wow.
|
|