Looting and Destruction

[Phoenix84]

Hopefully this thread doesn't go too far into the political spectrum...

There's been a lot in the news lately over the looting and destruction in Ferguson, MO.

The one thing that perplexes me is the looting and property destruction. I can understand getting angry and upset over injustices, real or perceived, but I can't understand how you'd go from "I'm mad as hell" to "let's go burn down buildings and knock over a convenience store."

I've been livid about things, both in my personal life and about things in politics, but I've never channeled that energy into destructive purposes.

So why do people do this? Is this really how people should vent their frustrations?  What's the psychology behind this behavior?

[ArchietheDragon]

Mob mentality.

[Wisconsin Beth]

I don't get it either Phoenix. 

from jsonline.com  www.jsonline.com/news/crime/protesters-march-through-downtown-to-condemn-police-killings-b99398006z1-283916021.html

Milwaukee Community activist Tory Lowe said he was there to support all victims of violence.

"We have to encourage the fight, but in a peaceful way," Lowe said. Though he doesn't condone it, he understands the violence in Ferguson. "Frustration causes people to do desperate things, and they are desperate for justice."

[Waffle]

I've always suspected that looting and destruction is just criminals taking advantage of situations - whether it be natural disasters or political unrest.  In other words the looters and arsonists are hiding behind the cover of the large gathering of people who are there for an entirely different reason.

I, of course, have no proof of this.

[Wisconsin Beth]

You might be able to see a hint of that in the link I posted Happy.  Some of the protestors wanted to take the protest up a notch and were told firmly NO.  I am here to support the Brown Family (from a mom who lost her son in a police shooting here in April.)  It was also cold last night.  Protesters in winter in the Northern states are either nuts or VERY determined in their cause, I think. 

The case here isn't good either but it's not been managed as badly as Ferguson was. 

[garion2003]

I don't condone violence like this for any reason. But I have seen some interesting comparisons between what is going in on Ferguson and what has happened, say, after a sports game. Or in this case that's making the rounds of the interwebs, a pumpkin festival:

Violence erupted over the weekend in the small college town of Keene, New Hampshire, as the town's annual Pumpkin Festival turned into a full-scale riot. Fires were set, buildings vandalized, a car overturned, both police and bystanders assaulted; by the night's end, dozens of rioters were under arrest and several other people hospitalized. Twitter users were quick to relate the Pumpkin Festival rioting to this summer's protests in Ferguson, Missouri following the killing of unarmed teenager Michael Brown, as well as the media response to the two situations.

www.twcc.com/articles/2014/10/21/k/keene-vs-ferguson-when-is-a-riot-not-a-riot

[Phoenix84]

Yes, I have heard of rioting after a sports game, which seems even more senseless.

I also suspected that criminals were using the protests in an attempt to mask their criminal activity, kind of like what happened with the Occupy Wall Street movement. I would think protesters who wanted to protest peacefully would be most outraged by the violence, since it derails their message.

[Shooby]

The soccer fans overseas seem to be the Worst.

[Tennesseer]

There are probably a number of studies written about this subject. Rioting, destroying property and looting are not limited to events such as what is taking place in Ferguson.

It can be counted on each year there will be riots and destruction by anarchists in the cities and countries where the nations of the G-8 and G-20 and I think the IMF meet.

Likewise, there is rioting in cities when a sport's team wins or loses a championship. The riots in Vancouver, Canada several years ago when the city's hockey team lost the final game of Stanley Cup tournament immediately comes to mind.

Just last month, the students at Keene New Hampshire State College rioted and destroyed property for some bizarre reason during the town's annual pumpkin festival.

The only thing I can see in all these examples are the over stimulated emotions of the protesters. There is probably far more to it than just emotions though.

As for looters? Criminal opportunists. And they are everywhere in the world.

[zibazinski]

One of the ways that Ferguson might have been avoided was to not let into town outsiders. But of course that would be a POLICE state and we can't have that. So innocent people and property were harmed. Sorry but unless you are peacefully protesting which is your right, you start looting and hurting others, retribution should be swift. 

[milee]

I also wonder if insurance will cover the business' destroyed property.

Our business property insurance has so many exclusions (acts of God, terrorism, etc) that I wonder sometimes what actually would be covered.  It will be interesting to see if this looting, vandalism and fire damage is covered or somehow excluded.  Or if there is debate over which came first and is therefore excluded.  Similar to the issues after a hurricane where the house is entirely gone but the flood insurance won't cover the loss because the flood insurer claims that wind destroyed the house... yet the insurer that covers wind loss won't cover the loss because that insurer claims that the flood destroyed the house.

[zibazinski]

Then watch their already high insurance rates sky rocket. If they aren't dropped period.

[Tiny]

I think you also need to add in "impairment" to the mob mentality and the feelings of injustice or anger. I'm talking alcohol and other drugs. And I'm NOT saying every one involved was 'feeling good' - that's were the mob mentality comes in - you've got a handful (or one person) who gets started and the others just follow along.

I've witnessed plenty of people (usually family) using poor/bad judgement and being ruled by their 'overwhelming' feelings while being under the influence. Even a slight buzz can help someone down the road to outright anger/ugliness - especially if 'having a few' is a habit.

[8 Bit WWBG]

I wonder whether the rioters plan to pay to rebuild their own town, or whether they will just expect to move to someone else's non-looted town?

I too wondered about the insurance and whether or not the losses would be covered.  I would be livid if I paid all those years for insurance only to have it creatively twist an exclusion to get out of paying when I really needed it.  The bad PR like during Katrina or Sandy might get them to pay, but who knows whether those business owners would be able to carry their expenses for the duration of the BS red tape.

I have to wonder whether or not any less-than-honest business owners who were on the edge might use the riots as a chance to burn their own businesses and get out?

[Tiny]

This may be the 'death knell' for Ferguson...if history does indeed repeat.

I suspect there are LOTS of examples but here's an old timey example of how the future goes for an area/town with rioting that came to my mind:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1964_Philadelphia_race_riot

[Deleted]

How does one log sales of items gained from "looting" into their checking register? It's income right?

[milee]

Nov 26, 2014 13:54:23 GMT -5 8 Bit WWBG said:

I too wondered about the insurance and whether or not the losses would be covered.  I would be livid if I paid all those years for insurance only to have it creatively twist an exclusion to get out of paying when I really needed it.  The bad PR like during Katrina or Sandy might get them to pay, but who knows whether those business owners would be able to carry their expenses for the duration of the BS red tape.

Yeah, but ongoing business expenses are covered under yet another type of insurance, which very, very few businesses own.  It's incredibly complicated, but here's a stab at the coverages you'd need and the likelihood that most of these businesses have that coverage:

Property Insurance on the Building - covers fire and certain types of theft. Again, not sure if acts of looting, vandalism or "rioting" will be covered. Covers the building only, not any of the property inside the building unless it's a specific type of policy that's less common in business. Many businesses will have this mainly because it's required if they have a mortgage on the building.

Property Insurance on the Contents, such as inventory for sale, furniture, fixtures, computer equipment, etc - covers fire and certain types of theft.  Not sure if acts of looting, vandalism or "rioting" will be covered.  Just covers specifically what is listed and up to the dollar amount of the policy.  Fewer businesses will have this type of coverage.  It's trickier to get written and not required unless you have a loan on the inventory or equipment.  Plus, if you've had a fire that destroyed the building, it's really tough to prove exactly what inventory you had at the time since your records are now gone.

Business Interruption Insurance - covers the businesses ongoing expenses and losses from not being able to operate.  Very uncommon because it's often expensive for small amounts of coverage.  Not even obtainable in certain disaster prone areas (Florida hurricane zone for example.)  My guess is that very, very few of the businesses have this and that would be what they'd need if they were to have their expenses covered during the duration of anything.  Property insurance will pay to replace the specific property the policy covers, but doesn't pay your ongoing expenses; you need this special business interruption insurance for that.  And, again, not sure if it will be applicable in the case of riots...

[Bonny]

I thought "riot" was a specific exclusion? I know it is on my homeowner's insurance.

Here in the SF Bay Area we had another night of rioting and property damage. SF's protests last night were peaceful.

I don't blame small business owners if they pack up and go. Having your store ransacked and all of your inventory gone a month before Christmas could bankrupt a business. These folks have doomed the community for at least 10 years and maybe a lot longer. Who wants to do business in a community that is so out of control?

[Virgil Showlion]

For what it's worth, many of the rioters interviewed by news crews claim that the rioting is the only way to draw attention to the putative injustice. In the words of one rioter to one reporter, "You all would dry up and ship out of here tonight if this was a peaceful demonstration."

I'd say the overall motivation is probably 10% of the above, 10% wanting to punish the Ferguson authorities, and 80% opportunism: the opportunity to go wild, cause havoc, rebel against authority, loot goods, and express visceral rage, all with minimal repercussions and a sense that one is serving a greater cause.

[Phoenix84]

So, does your homeowner's insurance cover damage in the case of rioting? Wouldn't people setting fires be covered under arson?

[Phoenix84]

Nov 26, 2014 16:09:58 GMT -5 Bonny said:

I thought "riot" was a specific exclusion? I know it is on my homeowner's insurance.

Here in the SF Bay Area we had another night of rioting and property damage. SF's protests last night were peaceful.

I don't blame small business owners if they pack up and go. Having your store ransacked and all of your inventory gone a month before Christmas could bankrupt a business. These folks have doomed the community for at least 10 years and maybe a lot longer. Who wants to do business in a community that is so out of control?

Yeah, I wonder what long term economic impact this is going to have on Ferguson, probably not good. I bet in a few months, there's going to be a distinct lack of jobs.

[busymom]

Rioting has always reminded me of a child's temper tantrum. It draws attention, but not the positive kind.

[Bonny]

Nov 26, 2014 16:20:08 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

Nov 26, 2014 16:09:58 GMT -5 Bonny said:

I thought "riot" was a specific exclusion? I know it is on my homeowner's insurance.

Here in the SF Bay Area we had another night of rioting and property damage. SF's protests last night were peaceful.

I don't blame small business owners if they pack up and go. Having your store ransacked and all of your inventory gone a month before Christmas could bankrupt a business. These folks have doomed the community for at least 10 years and maybe a lot longer. Who wants to do business in a community that is so out of control?

Yeah, I wonder what long term economic impact this is going to have on Ferguson, probably not good. I bet in a few months, there's going to be a distinct lack of jobs.

Have you seen the Ferguson thread over in Current Events? Ombud reported that a grocery store that finally opened in downtown Oakland was burned in the last two days of riots.

I remember that Downtown Oakland was without a grocery store for around 10 years. What's the incentive for staying? What idiocy to ruin the neighborhood.

[thyme4change]

I figure it is pretty standard teenaged activity.  If you are young, bored and maybe haven't had much to hold onto in your life - senseless destruction and violence is fun.  It is why we TP'd houses, or liked to throw stuff in a camp fire just to see it burn.  I watched one friend take a golf club and hit the corner of a building - why?  I don't know.  But he was laughing after he did it.  The angst and energy of young people is real, and can be harvested.  

I know there were a lot of protesters that were not young and stupid.  But I bet a large percentage of the people that were vandalizing and setting fires were young.  

I'm sure there were 'older' people who went along with it and joined in because they have extreme frustration in their lives and probably anger issues.  Even if they create their own circumstances - they can still feel a great amount of frustration that they think may be relieved with brute physical force against an inanimate object.  

[giramomma]

Nov 26, 2014 16:23:27 GMT -5 busymom said:

Rioting has always reminded me of a child's temper tantrum. It draws attention, but not the positive kind.

I totally agree. However, we are also in a time where talking and working out differences in compromise is not valued. We are very polarized as a society.

We are also in a time where money talks. If you have money, people listen to you. No money, well, your voice will not be heard.

So, I'm not sure what you do, to be honest.

ETA: Had I had time off, I would have gone to the protest in our city. The ME didn't take pictures of the scene because the camera battery was dead. Another investigator didn't do any measurements or anything like they are supposed to.

I just don't understand how that sort of incompetence is acceptable in a situation that you KNOW is going to likely highlight racial issues in a given community.

[milee]

Nov 26, 2014 16:18:16 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

So, does your homeowner's insurance cover damage in the case of rioting? Wouldn't people setting fires be covered under arson?

But that's the exact type of loophole I was referencing in the flood/wind example.

If your policy specifically excludes "riot" damage, you'll be SOL even if your place burns as a result of an arson from 3 blocks away... the insurer will claim that the fire was caused by an excluded event - the riot.

[Bonny]

Nov 26, 2014 17:08:03 GMT -5 milee said:

Nov 26, 2014 16:18:16 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

So, does your homeowner's insurance cover damage in the case of rioting? Wouldn't people setting fires be covered under arson?

But that's the exact type of loophole I was referencing in the flood/wind example.

If your policy specifically excludes "riot" damage, you'll be SOL even if your place burns as a result of an arson from 3 blocks away... the insurer will claim that the fire was caused by an excluded event - the riot.

I think you would have to check with your insurance agent. Maybe mollyanna58 can advise. I know that I'm not covered in the event of an earthquake but if my house burns down as a result of a subsequent fire I am.

[Deleted]

Mostly the looters and such were not from Ferguson they went to there only to give them trouble. I follow few protest leaders on twitter and they do not approve looting and fires and throwing objects at the police.

[Ombud]

@tiki I don't doubt that you follow protest leaders. I do doubt that they all disaprove of the rioting. However, that isn't my point and it wasn't my point on the other thread.

activities like this do hurt that target population more than help them. No one knows if the 10 businesses in Oakland will reopen. Not all of the looted businesses after the last riot did! And it really hurts more than just the rioters when there isn't a grocery store close by especially in a poor area, not to mention the lost jobs

in Ferguson, there are many people who are not getting a paycheck right now because of the riots. Are they able to weather the storm until they a be able to ride this out? What about someone small like Sum Dum Gai -- would they be able to ride this out? That's what I wonder

[souldoubt]

What happy said. People like those rioting in Ferguson are just looking for a reason. If they go out and do it during calm times they end up in jail. Right now they stand a better chance of getting away with it because of all the chaos.