Why do colleges think they are exempt from the law?

[Deleted]

But uni must approve them yes?

[justme]

Nah, as long they're off university property they don't care as much. Especially since so many aren't frat houses just houses that have five guys from the same frat living there.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

Nov 24, 2014 18:56:30 GMT -5 @tiki said:

But uni must approve them yes?

No. They're not on campus property, and the school has no jurisdiction over an off-campus frat house. Near our University here, there's an older district. A lot of the homes in that community are two-story homes plus full basement, built in the '70's. Many have been rented out to Fraternities, or Fraternities have bought them outright as an off-campus living quarters/party house.

[ken a.k.a OMK]

Our fraternities were all off campus. Actually the school didn't have a campus, just a few blocks in Philadelphia. Anyway school could reprimand you and disband the chapter from operating there. Open mixers/parties were dry. At closed parties we had beer but had to keep things in some control (not upset the neighbors, etc) or we'd be in trouble. All the frats were in a couple square blocks sharing houses with student rooming.

[Deleted]

Nov 24, 2014 12:45:29 GMT -5 justme said:

The college I went to had legit police. They had a mini holding cell before you get shipped off to the actual jail, and once the campus police get you, you are arrested and have to go through the justice system. I witnessed this play out. I don't recall seeing any campus security that wasn't police. 911 calls are routed specifically to the campus police for short response time, but they're still 911 calls. (This system helped the school thwart a campus shooting before the guy hurt anyone). The on-campus frats didn't have as crazy of parties (most saved that for off campus hosing) but on the weekends at least one cruiser was parked on frat row. Also, there was at least one cruiser at the apartments associated with the school. I can't recall if it was college or regular police at the non-associated student apartments on the weekend, but they were there.

Now, I'm sure sexual assault happened there even with the police (though all the friends that I know that were during college went to another school) but I never witnessed a culture that covered it up. During orientation they talked about the emergency lights and how fast police response and to use them. They had a service that would escort anyone who called around campus at night. The one frat that had a bad reputation was thrown out my second year for hazing and other violations (never heard what those were). The school also axed a couple more frats while  I was there also for hazing (didn't hear about assault issues with them).

I hope my school is still like there and if my experience was the norm I hope maybe other schools will start operating like that. 

did you go to the same school my DD is at?  their police force is also legit police. 

[justme]

Nov 24, 2014 19:58:09 GMT -5 @singlemominmd said:

Nov 24, 2014 12:45:29 GMT -5 justme said:

The college I went to had legit police. They had a mini holding cell before you get shipped off to the actual jail, and once the campus police get you, you are arrested and have to go through the justice system. I witnessed this play out. I don't recall seeing any campus security that wasn't police. 911 calls are routed specifically to the campus police for short response time, but they're still 911 calls. (This system helped the school thwart a campus shooting before the guy hurt anyone). The on-campus frats didn't have as crazy of parties (most saved that for off campus hosing) but on the weekends at least one cruiser was parked on frat row. Also, there was at least one cruiser at the apartments associated with the school. I can't recall if it was college or regular police at the non-associated student apartments on the weekend, but they were there.

Now, I'm sure sexual assault happened there even with the police (though all the friends that I know that were during college went to another school) but I never witnessed a culture that covered it up. During orientation they talked about the emergency lights and how fast police response and to use them. They had a service that would escort anyone who called around campus at night. The one frat that had a bad reputation was thrown out my second year for hazing and other violations (never heard what those were). The school also axed a couple more frats while  I was there also for hazing (didn't hear about assault issues with them).

I hope my school is still like there and if my experience was the norm I hope maybe other schools will start operating like that. 

did you go to the same school my DD is at?  their police force is also legit police. 

Nope, it's in Florida. Managed to do that as I think the second largest school in the nation, and it's state school. If they can do it...

[Deleted]

Nov 24, 2014 20:20:43 GMT -5 justme said:

Nov 24, 2014 19:58:09 GMT -5 @singlemominmd said:

did you go to the same school my DD is at?  their police force is also legit police. 

Nope, it's in Florida. Managed to do that as I think the second largest school in the nation, and it's state school. If they can do it...

her university is also a state school and has over 30K students (undergrad and grad)

[justme]

Nov 24, 2014 20:36:23 GMT -5 @singlemominmd said:

Nov 24, 2014 20:20:43 GMT -5 justme said:

Nope, it's in Florida. Managed to do that as I think the second largest school in the nation, and it's state school. If they can do it...

her university is also a state school and has over 30K students (undergrad and grad)

Nice. Maybe it's just these crappy legacy schools that have a name to protect that are so bad? I dunno.

[hoops902]

Nov 24, 2014 18:25:35 GMT -5 Opti said:

Hoops, you didn't read the article at all did you? She was assaulted right when

she entered the room and was apparently conscious for all of it. It was a planned

gang rape.

Yes, but the thread is about "why do colleges think they are exempt from the law", including talking about patrolling frat houses, the dangers of underage binge drinking, how colleges handle the reporting of rape, etc.

There's nothing in the article itself to suggest that the college somehow thinks they are above the law.  In fact the article clearly states she was told what her options were, including reporting to the police.  If this thread was more about the article it should have been titled "Why do people have stupid friends?".  Assuming the story is true, what friend tells their other friend not to report a rape because it means they won't get into good parties anymore?

What's there to debate about someone claiming they were raped?  Where's the discussion?  Who's going to take the stance of "yeah, she deserved it because she was a freshman"?

[hoops902]

::No. They're not on campus property, and the school has no jurisdiction over an off-campus frat house.::

Jurisdiction?  No.  Control?  Absolutely.  It's not complicated at all.  If you want to be a fraternity or sorority associated with our university...these are the rules you must follow which include allowing campus police to come in at any time to inspect.  The university can't do anything about a random group of people who live in a house together.  They can certainly exert control over an official campus group with an official group residence.

[Opti]

Point taken Hoops. However I don't think your drunken hookup scenario is a big

source of falsely reported or actual rapes. I think earlier in the thread someone

posted that the problem turns out to be mostly serial rapists. Not sure how to fix

that, but the culture of UVA does seem to protect those type of criminals.

[wvugurl26]

All fraternities and sororities at my alma mater are currently suspended. 2 of the fraternities have been suspended at the national charter level. One had 20 some pledges arrested for brawling in the street in the early morning hours and a few days later a kid was found unconscious on the floor of another fraternity. All Greek life activities were suspended after that. The kid died in the hospital a few days later. Autopsy and toxicology aren't back yet. His parents did donate his organs which went to 3 people.

[hoops902]

Nov 25, 2014 10:42:36 GMT -5 Opti said:

Point taken Hoops. However I don't think your drunken hookup scenario is a big

source of falsely reported or actual rapes. I think earlier in the thread someone

posted that the problem turns out to be mostly serial rapists. Not sure how to fix

that, but the culture of UVA does seem to protect those type of criminals.

Actually there was an article/thread a while back that indicated the drunken binge-drinking blackout "hookup" was the primary source of rape on college campuses.  Not that they're necessarily blacked out, but that they were either blacked out or unconscious...the unconscious piece being the impetus of it being "rape".  Too drunk or too unconscious to consent.  It happens FAR more often than the kind of fully aware rape in the article (far more often, but with sticking points as to whether it's truly rape if someone is too drunk to give a consent...but what happens when both are too drunk?)

ETA: I  do remember the article dealt with the binge-drinking issue.  I think there was even a law being looked into that required positive consent to engage in sexual activities (as opposed to "no means no", it was "yes means yes").  The issue I had with the law specifically was what happened if neither party said "yes" specifically, did they rape each other?

[gooddecisions]

Nov 25, 2014 10:47:04 GMT -5 wvugurl26 said:

All fraternities and sororities at my alma mater are currently suspended. 2 of the fraternities have been suspended at the national charter level. One had 20 some pledges arrested for brawling in the street in the early morning hours and a few days later a kid was found unconscious on the floor of another fraternity. All Greek life activities were suspended after that. The kid died in the hospital a few days later. Autopsy and toxicology aren't back yet. His parents did donate his organs which went to 3 people.

WVU? I don't know about all these suspending Greek activities consequences. It just seems like a slap on the wrist to suspend some activities during an investigation.

I remember when the Ohio State Women's Rugby team traveled to D.C. to play American University, circa 1999. For many, it was their first trip to D.C. and they wanted to make it memorable. For the men's team, it was tradition to take their shirts off and pose in front of a monument. So, since it's not illegal to be topless in D.C., the women stood together in front of the Lincoln memorial for a group photo, pulled off their shirts and covered their breasts with their hands. There was a reporter across the street for a wiccan event, who happened to snap a discreet photo of their backs. It made it into the sports section of the Post, not article- just a small photo with a short caption.

OSU administration was horrified and suspended games for the remainder of the season and the 12 in the photo were permentantly suspended from playing. They had to do community service, issue a letter of apology and stay far away from the media (everyone from David Letterman to Inside Edition wanted to talk to them) in order for this story to go away as fast as possible. Meanwhile, the public just thought it was an amusing photo, not the outrageous embarrassment OSU admin considered it to be. Was it the most appropriate thing to do, no, was it illegal, not in D.C., did it hurt anyone, no.

It's just interesting to see how Universities are perfectly capable of handing out punishment if they think their reputation will suffer even a little.

[wvugurl26]

Yes, at WVU. I don't know that suspending them is an appropriate punishment. They probably suspended them to try and stop what they deemed to be a downward spiral. I'm not naive enough to think they haven't just been pushed off campus to another location.

I'm not sure if the students living in those houses had to find alternative housing or not. That would be difficult given the housing crunch in town. Several new apartment complexes were built over the summer and fully leased before they anywhere near completion. I can't imagine leasing an apartment that isn't even built yet.

They might be technically off campus but at least at WVU they are surrounded by 3 dorms. I'm not saying the cops never go up there but back up on that hill is kind of no man's land. There's only one reason to go up that street. If they are partying in other places off campus, there's likely to be more regular police patrols. The city cops would have to drive through campus to get there.

[hoops902]

::Saying it's not rape if someone is unconscious is a slippery slope.::

Actually, my point was that it's clearly rape (or should be) if someone is unconscious.  Here's my other point though, if you have no memory of what happened, how do you prove you were unconscious vs blackout drunk?  (or ignore prove since that's more legal than anything, how do you even know yourself if you were unconscious or blacked out...other than the presumption many people have that if they can't remember they were unconscious and a victim).

A roofie might be different in that I presume some of that stays in your system so you can be tested, you might clearly remember having 1 drink and then feeling "weird".  The action is very complicated when the presumed "victim" doesn't even know if they were a victim or not.