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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2014 11:37:41 GMT -5
Would depend on circumstances- had this discussion before with the restaurant scenario.
Good chance taking action vs. being prepared to take action is the wrong choice. Good chance acting could escalate an armed robbery and get other people killed.
Not going to shed a tear for a dead armed robber- but it could have turned out a lot worse. I am of the opinion you let them have the cash and be a good witness. It could escalate into an armed robbery? It already was an armed robbery.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 26, 2014 12:04:01 GMT -5
... could escalate an armed robbery ... ... could escalate into an armed robbery? ... Fwiw
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 26, 2014 12:10:39 GMT -5
i don't care if Tolkien is a DOGCATCHER. a quote is a quote, and can be weighed and measured on it's own merits. in this case, it weighs like a battleship, imo. IYO indeed. LOL! oh, i am quite confident i am not alone. it is considered one of the greatest quotes of the 20th century according to a few sources.
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 26, 2014 12:12:41 GMT -5
It's a great quote, and if one of the most influential fantasy fiction authors of the last 100 years isn't quotable enough, the character who says it is a near demigod that's thousands of years old. Gandalf is definitely quotable and kick ass enough to listen to. Fantasy fiction author? Demi-god character from a fiction book? I don't base my self defense strategy along those parameters. all of this is totally irrelevant. holy scripture contains quotes from gods and demi-gods, and people wander around reciting them and living their lives by them. the power is in the quote itself, not in whether you believe in the deity. that is what gives scripture, fiction, poetry, and prose it's own immortal glory and life.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 26, 2014 12:15:36 GMT -5
I know, right? You'd think DJ might want to prevent the deaths of everyone he knows and loves, and more than 200 other people besides, but... no... I guess he can't bring himself to do it. There is a sheep ranch I pass on the way to Branson, Missouri. They are bleating all the time. Doesn't seem to affect me as I pass by well armed and willing to defend myself and family. Other people drive by and "like" those sheep. This also has no effect on my decision to keep being able to defend myself. If the world only contained sheep, they would be fine as they are. we all must choose our battles, bro. and we all must live with those choices, too.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 26, 2014 12:25:00 GMT -5
I know, right? You'd think DJ might want to prevent the deaths of everyone he knows and loves, and more than 200 other people besides, but... no... I guess he can't bring himself to do it. There is a sheep ranch I pass on the way to Branson, Missouri. They are bleating all the time. Doesn't seem to affect me as I pass by well armed and willing to defend myself and family. Other people drive by and "like" those sheep. This also has no effect on my decision to keep being able to defend myself. If the world only contained sheep, they would be fine as they are. You leave the sheep out of this.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 26, 2014 12:44:22 GMT -5
There is a sheep ranch I pass on the way to Branson, Missouri. They are bleating all the time. Doesn't seem to affect me as I pass by well armed and willing to defend myself and family. Other people drive by and "like" those sheep. This also has no effect on my decision to keep being able to defend myself. If the world only contained sheep, they would be fine as they are. You leave the sheep out of this. yeah, that's a sheep chot.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2014 14:03:52 GMT -5
Fair enough, but just so you know I'd describe Jesus as a demigod character from a fiction book as well, and I'm surrounded by people that base their lives on his quotes. The only difference is the age of the source material. I've been describing Jesus as a fictional character, to me, for a long time now. That doesn't mean I hold anyones else's belief in him as wrong. I live in one of the most devout Christian area's in this country, and glad I'm here.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2014 14:10:54 GMT -5
Fantasy fiction author? Demi-god character from a fiction book? I don't base my self defense strategy along those parameters. all of this is totally irrelevant. holy scripture contains quotes from gods and demi-gods, and people wander around reciting them and living their lives by them. the power is in the quote itself, not in whether you believe in the deity. that is what gives scripture, fiction, poetry, and prose it's own immortal glory and life. I don't consider a fiction book writer a deity either. Tolkein's quote from his book makes for great story telling.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2014 14:17:36 GMT -5
There is a sheep ranch I pass on the way to Branson, Missouri. They are bleating all the time. Doesn't seem to affect me as I pass by well armed and willing to defend myself and family. Other people drive by and "like" those sheep. This also has no effect on my decision to keep being able to defend myself. If the world only contained sheep, they would be fine as they are. You leave the sheep out of this. I like sheep. The more sheep, the bigger the food supp...I mean the more peaceful it is.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2014 14:19:49 GMT -5
You leave the sheep out of this. yeah, that's a sheep chot. Accurate metaphors often seem that way.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 26, 2014 20:32:21 GMT -5
all of this is totally irrelevant. holy scripture contains quotes from gods and demi-gods, and people wander around reciting them and living their lives by them. the power is in the quote itself, not in whether you believe in the deity. that is what gives scripture, fiction, poetry, and prose it's own immortal glory and life. I don't consider a fiction book writer a deity either. Tolkein's quote from his book makes for great story telling. i wasn't talking about the author. i was talking about the character (following your lead). but if you insist on moving the goalposts, how much do you know about JRR Tolkein?
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 26, 2014 20:33:25 GMT -5
Fair enough, but just so you know I'd describe Jesus as a demigod character from a fiction book as well, and I'm surrounded by people that base their lives on his quotes. The only difference is the age of the source material. I've been describing Jesus as a fictional character, to me, for a long time now. That doesn't mean I hold anyones else's belief in him as wrong. I live in one of the most devout Christian area's in this country, and glad I'm here. doesn't lessen the power of his parables, either.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2014 20:40:14 GMT -5
Just want to mention, "I before E" works on J.R.R. Tolkien too...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2014 14:58:07 GMT -5
I don't consider a fiction book writer a deity either. Tolkein's quote from his book makes for great story telling. i wasn't talking about the author. i was talking about the character (following your lead). but if you insist on moving the goalposts, how much do you know about JRR Tolkein? I was following sum dum gai's lead on the character idea. Since I don't believe in any deity's, where the goal posts are moved in regards to that subject, would be a waste of discussion between us. I have read "The Hobbit" and the "Ring Trilogy" and found the writing excellent. I still regard it as fictional entertainment and don't believe in following any possible philosophy's from it's story (s) or characters.
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 28, 2014 14:59:48 GMT -5
Just want to mention, "I before E" works on J.R.R. Tolkien too... thanks. i routinely spell names wrong, as b2r will tell you with a twinkle in his eye.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2014 15:02:37 GMT -5
I've been describing Jesus as a fictional character, to me, for a long time now. That doesn't mean I hold anyones else's belief in him as wrong. I live in one of the most devout Christian area's in this country, and glad I'm here. doesn't lessen the power of his parables, either. If you follow that stuff. Lots of people do. I won't belittle any one their beliefs. I just don't.
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 28, 2014 15:04:39 GMT -5
i wasn't talking about the author. i was talking about the character (following your lead). but if you insist on moving the goalposts, how much do you know about JRR Tolkein? I was following sum dum gai's lead on the character idea. Since I don't believe in any deity's, where the goal posts are moved in regards to that subject, would be a waste of discussion between us. I have read "The Hobbit" and the "Ring Trilogy" and found the writing excellent. I still regard it as fictional entertainment and don't believe in following any possible philosophy's from it's story (s) or characters. i don't think the characters are any more real than you do. however, i don't think of those words as being from Gandalf. i think of them being from TolkIEn: from a man observing the cruelty of WW2, and trying to find hope in all of that suffering- a way forward, as a moral agent, an ordinary man, a European, and a Christian in a time that could only be thought of as Godless. TolkIEn wanted to create a new, more hopeful mythology that could inspire people to do good in a world full of chaos. i think his articulation of those ideas is every bit as good as those of Locke, Kant, and Thoreau- and being that he is more modern than any of them, perhaps more relevant. but in addition, i treat art as having it's own life apart from man. and i regard his work and words as great art.
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 28, 2014 15:09:42 GMT -5
doesn't lessen the power of his parables, either. If you follow that stuff. Lots of people do. I won't belittle any one their beliefs. I just don't. of course i follow "that stuff". i am nowhere as great a thinker as Kant and many others. i carefully read and consider their writings, and if it makes sense to me, and fits in with my moral framework, i use their carefully thought out ideas as reference material and guidance. if you don't use the guidance of elders, then you are way more self sufficient than me. congratulations, i guess.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2014 15:39:23 GMT -5
I was following sum dum gai's lead on the character idea. Since I don't believe in any deity's, where the goal posts are moved in regards to that subject, would be a waste of discussion between us. I have read "The Hobbit" and the "Ring Trilogy" and found the writing excellent. I still regard it as fictional entertainment and don't believe in following any possible philosophy's from it's story (s) or characters. i don't think the characters are any more real than you do. however, i don't think of those words as being from Gandalf. i think of them being from TolkIEn: from a man observing the cruelty of WW2, and trying to find hope in all of that suffering- a way forward, as a moral agent, an ordinary man, a European, and a Christian in a time that could only be thought of as Godless. TolkIEn wanted to create a new, more hopeful mythology that could inspire people to do good in a world full of chaos. i think his articulation of those ideas is every bit as good as those of Locke, Kant, and Thoreau- and being that he is more modern than any of them, perhaps more relevant. but in addition, i treat art as having it's own life apart from man. and i regard his work and words as great art. Appreciation of art is subjective, regardless of the format. I won't be using his art, as a philosophy to follow, when deciding on an action, in a possible self defense situation.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2014 15:53:51 GMT -5
If you follow that stuff. Lots of people do. I won't belittle any one their beliefs. I just don't. of course i follow "that stuff". i am nowhere as great a thinker as Kant and many others. i carefully read and consider their writings, and if it makes sense to me, and fits in with my moral framework, i use their carefully thought out ideas as reference material and guidance. if you don't use the guidance of elders, then you are way more self sufficient than me. congratulations, i guess. I used the guidance of elders when I was younger and in my formative years. Now that I'm in my elder years, I've decided which parts of that guidance worked best for me and use them as I see fit. Leaving the fate of me and my family in the hands of others, safety wise, is something I will not do.
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 2, 2014 20:30:36 GMT -5
of course i follow "that stuff". i am nowhere as great a thinker as Kant and many others. i carefully read and consider their writings, and if it makes sense to me, and fits in with my moral framework, i use their carefully thought out ideas as reference material and guidance. if you don't use the guidance of elders, then you are way more self sufficient than me. congratulations, i guess. I used the guidance of elders when I was younger and in my formative years. Now that I'm in my elder years, I've decided which parts of that guidance worked best for me and use them as I see fit. Leaving the fate of me and my family in the hands of others, safety wise, is something I will not do. huh. yeah, we are quite different. i learn stuff from people half my age all the time. and i have found it quite profitable.
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 4, 2014 16:28:00 GMT -5
not too keen on vigilantism. Not to keen on vocab, either, I see. Stopping an armed robbery in progress is hardly "vigilantism". Someone has a gun on another person, we call that defending life.
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 4, 2014 16:30:38 GMT -5
Would depend on circumstances- had this discussion before with the restaurant scenario.
Good chance taking action vs. being prepared to take action is the wrong choice. Good chance acting could escalate an armed robbery and get other people killed.
Not going to shed a tear for a dead armed robber- but it could have turned out a lot worse. I am of the opinion you let them have the cash and be a good witness. Whatever you think of hypothetical situations, this isn't hypothetical. It happened- someone made a deadly threat, and as a result, they're dead. That's the story that needs to get out there because the real objective isn't to prepare to use your weapon in this scenario, the objective is to spread the word about this incident in order that it might deter future incidents. An armed society is a polite society.
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 4, 2014 16:33:45 GMT -5
You may defend life in every state, lawfully, without being considered a vigilante. There may be a question of use of a firearm as those regulations do vary.
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 4, 2014 16:35:37 GMT -5
you want to know why i really have a problem with this? let's say i am in a room with (7) people with CWP's. i am minding my own business, pushing my infant niece around in a stroller. suddenly, a guy pulls a gun on a clerk and tells him to put the money in a bag. in the next instant, all seven of the folks with guns are firing on him. bullets are flying everywhere, and my niece is caught in the crossfire and killed. i dislike cops. anyone who knows my posting knows it. i have a thing about authority. but i will be damned if i want half a dozen people with conflicting motivations coming to my rescue or the rescue of anyone else. if i am under threat, i can handle myself, and anyone else who is under threat can handle themselves. when someone ELSE is under threat, it is not my job to handle them. that is how i define a vigiliante: someone who can't mind his own go--amn business and is all up in mine WITHOUT LEGAL AUTHORITY TO SO. might i thank such a person later for "saving my life"? sure. if i was under threat. and i might want him drawn and quartered for it too, if he accidentally shot an innocent bystander because he was inadequately trained, and in way over his head. Here's the problem with your scenario..... In my gun classes, one of the first rules of thumb before shooting is to know your area and what's beyond it. This happened at the shooting at the Oregon mall, where there was someone there with a CWP. He got his family to a safe area and got himself into position to attempt to shoot. However, he saw someone in the background and knew that he could have potentially hit her if he missed, so he backed down. My instructor was in a similar position, other than it was with a dog that was attacking both her and her dog. She was down on the ground with the dog on top of her, biting her and she drew her weapon. Even then, she was cognizant of there being too many people around to shoot, so didn't. So at least 2 instances that I know of of people who have been carrying, have been in a position to shoot and did not because they were well trained. I think that you are making some assumptions that the store would turn into a shoot out at OK Corral. If 7 are carrying, then most have probably had adequate training. Oh, and BTW......the shooter who was caught in downtown NYC after he shot up his place of employment was surrounded by several law enforcement officers. There were 9 people injured, and all were injured by the cops shooting this guy. 3 directly shot, 6 with bullet fragments. www.cnn.com/2012/08/25/justice/new-york-empire-state-shooting/But the real problem with your scenario is that you've brought a hypothetical to a reality thread. Your scenario didn't happen. What happened happened, so in a way-- real life has contradicted your hypothetical.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 4, 2014 21:24:33 GMT -5
Here's the problem with your scenario..... In my gun classes, one of the first rules of thumb before shooting is to know your area and what's beyond it. This happened at the shooting at the Oregon mall, where there was someone there with a CWP. He got his family to a safe area and got himself into position to attempt to shoot. However, he saw someone in the background and knew that he could have potentially hit her if he missed, so he backed down. My instructor was in a similar position, other than it was with a dog that was attacking both her and her dog. She was down on the ground with the dog on top of her, biting her and she drew her weapon. Even then, she was cognizant of there being too many people around to shoot, so didn't. So at least 2 instances that I know of of people who have been carrying, have been in a position to shoot and did not because they were well trained. I think that you are making some assumptions that the store would turn into a shoot out at OK Corral. If 7 are carrying, then most have probably had adequate training. Oh, and BTW......the shooter who was caught in downtown NYC after he shot up his place of employment was surrounded by several law enforcement officers. There were 9 people injured, and all were injured by the cops shooting this guy. 3 directly shot, 6 with bullet fragments. www.cnn.com/2012/08/25/justice/new-york-empire-state-shooting/But the real problem with your scenario is that you've brought a hypothetical to a reality thread. Your scenario didn't happen. What happened happened, so in a way-- real life has contradicted your hypothetical. not digging the real, generally speaking. i would be digging it even less when carried to the extreme.
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Post by EVT1 on Dec 4, 2014 23:10:57 GMT -5
Nothing was contradicted- it was a different scenario. Generally armed robbers do not attack stores with customers in them, they wait around until the clerk is alone. And if there were three people in the store- well then the armed robber picked the wrong target.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2014 12:54:24 GMT -5
I used the guidance of elders when I was younger and in my formative years. Now that I'm in my elder years, I've decided which parts of that guidance worked best for me and use them as I see fit. Leaving the fate of me and my family in the hands of others, safety wise, is something I will not do. huh. yeah, we are quite different. i learn stuff from people half my age all the time. and i have found it quite profitable. I learn stuff from people of all ages, all the time. I find as time goes by it affects my personal code of conduct less and less. If you meant profitable as in earning dollars, I've stopped trying to increase my wealth in any significant way. That part of my life was over 14 1/2 years ago, along with it's headaches. Not that the working for success part was all bad times though.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2014 13:17:31 GMT -5
Nothing was contradicted- it was a different scenario. Generally armed robbers do not attack stores with customers in them, they wait around until the clerk is alone. And if there were three people in the store- well then the armed robber picked the wrong target.
Only one was an actual event. The other was only a fiction story made up to fit a persons ideal (DJ's) You probably have a better chance of winning the powerball lottery than having 7 gun carrying permit holders being at, and opening fire at the same robbery. As you stated. The robber would have to be pretty dumb to attempt in that fiction scenario.
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