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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2014 14:14:08 GMT -5
Pawn store customer fells armed robber, WISH, Indianapolis, Ind. 11/18/14 A man entered Cash America Pawn in Indianapolis, Ind. pulled a hood over his head, drew a gun, and attempted to rob the store. A customer responded by drawing a gun and shooting the criminal, killing him. Following an investigation, police revealed that the deceased robber was a suspect in other robberies.
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 21, 2014 14:31:19 GMT -5
not too keen on vigilantism.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2014 14:40:19 GMT -5
not too keen on vigilantism. That ideal changes when you recieve your first gunshot wound during the commencement of an armed robbery, if you survive.
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 21, 2014 14:41:57 GMT -5
not too keen on vigilantism. That ideal changes when you recieve your first gunshot wound during the commencement of an armed robbery, if you survive. Of course, how it changes depends on who it is that fired the shot that wounds you.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2014 14:46:26 GMT -5
That ideal changes when you recieve your first gunshot wound during the commencement of an armed robbery, if you survive. Of course, how it changes depends on who it is that fired the shot that wounds you. Using the statistics of that type of fired shot, there's going to be a lot of pro vigilantes out there.
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 21, 2014 15:03:03 GMT -5
not too keen on vigilantism. That ideal changes when you recieve your first gunshot wound during the commencement of an armed robbery, if you survive. nah. i am not that flimsy in my ideals.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2014 15:14:43 GMT -5
That ideal changes when you recieve your first gunshot wound during the commencement of an armed robbery, if you survive. nah. i am not that flimsy in my ideals. It seems odd to me, but you have a lot of company in that ideal. I see nothing wrong with it as 99.9% of the time, it will affect only you. The chances of the .1% inaction affecting me aren't even worth considering. (Fictional numbers to illustrate the point)
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 21, 2014 16:03:43 GMT -5
nah. i am not that flimsy in my ideals. It seems odd to me, but you have a lot of company in that ideal. I see nothing wrong with it as 99.9% of the time, it will affect only you. The chances of the .1% inaction affecting me aren't even worth considering. (Fictional numbers to illustrate the point) i see nothing right about it 99.9% of the time. so, i guess we agree about 0.1% of the time on this issue.
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 21, 2014 16:06:21 GMT -5
Not sure I'd classify this as vigilantism. More like self defense. that is what Paul said the last time this subject came up. but if you look at the statistics on armed robbery, it is extraordinarily rare for anyone to be shot OTHER than the shopkeep. therefore, you are playing long odds if you pull a gun on an armed robber, UNLESS you are the owner of the business.True vigilantism would be allowing the robbery to happen, then tracking the guy down later and shooting him. You start waving a gun around in a crowded place, you're implicitly threatening everyone in the vicinity with death. They're completely justified, in my opinion, in taking you out first. Don't like it, don't brandish a deadly weapon in a public place. I'll be weeping no tears for the moron that got killed here. One less piece of debris in the gene pool. “Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement.” ― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2014 16:21:25 GMT -5
Not sure I'd classify this as vigilantism. More like self defense. that is what Paul said the last time this subject came up. but if you look at the statistics on armed robbery, it is extraordinarily rare for anyone to be shot OTHER than the shopkeep. therefore, you are playing long odds if you pull a gun on an armed robber, UNLESS you are the owner of the business.True vigilantism would be allowing the robbery to happen, then tracking the guy down later and shooting him. You start waving a gun around in a crowded place, you're implicitly threatening everyone in the vicinity with death. They're completely justified, in my opinion, in taking you out first. Don't like it, don't brandish a deadly weapon in a public place. I'll be weeping no tears for the moron that got killed here. One less piece of debris in the gene pool. “Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement.” ― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring I really can't use that statement from a purveyor of fiction books as a philosophy to follow. I'm more of a be prepared for anything and judge the situation as it presents. I wouldn't want to be thinking about that statement too much as it could muddy the assessment of a situation that often doesn't give you much time to react. More than likely I would end the life of someone pointing/waving a gun in a store with little regret. Please don't be mistaken that I would like it.
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 21, 2014 16:31:46 GMT -5
“Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement.” ― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring I really can't use that statement from a purveyor of fiction books as a philosophy to follow. I'm more of a be prepared for anything and judge the situation as it presents. I wouldn't want to be thinking about that statement too much as it could muddy the assessment of a situation that often doesn't give you much time to react. More than likely I would end the life of someone pointing/waving a gun in a store with little regret. Please don't be mistaken that I would like it. i don't care if Tolkien is a DOGCATCHER. a quote is a quote, and can be weighed and measured on it's own merits. in this case, it weighs like a battleship, imo.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2014 18:44:22 GMT -5
not too keen on vigilantism. Me either... fortunately for us (and this discussion) this wasn't vigilantism. Vigilantism (to me, anyway) is "going out and looking for bad guys to punish". Not "being somewhere, minding your own business and a criminal comes and threatens innocent people (including you), so you take steps to protect yourself".
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 21, 2014 19:13:44 GMT -5
Sometimes when I want to clear all of the picnickers out of a park, I'll drop little mounds of sugar on their picnic blankets so that the ants swarm in and drive them off. I've been cited a few times for Virgilantism.
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 21, 2014 20:52:08 GMT -5
not too keen on vigilantism. Me either... fortunately for us (and this discussion) this wasn't vigilantism. Vigilantism (to me, anyway) is "going out and looking for bad guys to punish". Not "being somewhere, minding your own business and a criminal comes and threatens innocent people (including you), so you take steps to protect yourself". your opinion. mine is that it was. not much to discuss there.
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 21, 2014 20:52:46 GMT -5
Sometimes when I want to clear all of the picnickers out of a park, I'll drop little mounds of sugar on their picnic blankets so that the ants swarm in and drive them off. I've been cited a few times for Virgilantism. LOL!
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 21, 2014 20:53:43 GMT -5
There you go then, I am a shopkeep. Armed robbers can suck it. I hope they all contract something horribly painful and fatal. i have no objection to shopkeeps keeping weapons. it is no different than hiring private security, which also makes sense to me.
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 21, 2014 20:54:27 GMT -5
It's a great quote, and if one of the most influential fantasy fiction authors of the last 100 years isn't quotable enough, the character who says it is a near demigod that's thousands of years old. Gandalf is definitely quotable and kick ass enough to listen to. thanks SDG. i think this is a great quote. it can be judged on it's own merits, which i think are ample.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2014 21:17:00 GMT -5
Me either... fortunately for us (and this discussion) this wasn't vigilantism. Vigilantism (to me, anyway) is "going out and looking for bad guys to punish". Not "being somewhere, minding your own business and a criminal comes and threatens innocent people (including you), so you take steps to protect yourself". your opinion. mine is that it was. not much to discuss there. Just looked it up (because I was curious who was closer to the definition... me... or you)... and "self defense, or immediate defense of others" isn't included in vigilantism. Self defense and defense of others in imminent danger is accepted "legal authority".
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 21, 2014 21:18:39 GMT -5
your opinion. mine is that it was. not much to discuss there. Just looked it up (because I was curious who was closer to the definition... me... or you)... and "self defense, or immediate defense of others" isn't included in vigilantism. let's see: this guy undertook law enforcement in their community without legal authority. yep. sounds like vigilantism to me.Self defense and defense of others in imminent danger is accepted "legal authority". so, you looked up the definition, and finding that this situation met the definition precisely, you have now moved the bar from "vigilantism" to "legal authority"? what will it be next? are you going to argue the meaning of "citizens"? i have already stated why i don't believe that this meets the standard for self defense. but i don't see self defense in the definition either.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2014 21:25:56 GMT -5
Just looked it up (because I was curious who was closer to the definition... me... or you)... and "self defense, or immediate defense of others" isn't included in vigilantism. let's see: this guy undertook law enforcement in their community without legal authority. yep. sounds like vigilantism to me.Self defense and defense of others in imminent danger is accepted "legal authority". so, you looked up the definition, and finding that this situation met the definition precisely, you have now moved the bar from "vigilantism" to "legal authority"? what will it be next? are you going to argue the meaning of "citizens"? i have already stated why i don't believe that this is self defense. but i don't see self defense in the definition either. I didn't say this case was self defense... did I? You keep missing the "defense of others in imminent danger" aspect.
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 21, 2014 21:27:24 GMT -5
so, you looked up the definition, and finding that this situation met the definition precisely, you have now moved the bar from "vigilantism" to "legal authority"? what will it be next? are you going to argue the meaning of "citizens"? i have already stated why i don't believe that this is self defense. but i don't see self defense in the definition either. I didn't say this case was self defense... did I? you mentioned self defense, yes. TWICE. forgive me for thinking that it applied to your entire post.You keep missing the "defense of others in imminent danger" aspect. that sounds like he is playing cop, to me. that sounds like taking the law into one's own hands without legal authority to me. what does it sound like to you?
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 21, 2014 21:39:27 GMT -5
you want to know why i really have a problem with this?
let's say i am in a room with (7) people with CWP's. i am minding my own business, pushing my infant niece around in a stroller. suddenly, a guy pulls a gun on a clerk and tells him to put the money in a bag. in the next instant, all seven of the folks with guns are firing on him. bullets are flying everywhere, and my niece is caught in the crossfire and killed.
i dislike cops. anyone who knows my posting knows it. i have a thing about authority. but i will be damned if i want half a dozen people with conflicting motivations coming to my rescue or the rescue of anyone else. if i am under threat, i can handle myself, and anyone else who is under threat can handle themselves. when someone ELSE is under threat, it is not my job to handle them. that is how i define a vigiliante: someone who can't mind his own go--amn business and is all up in mine WITHOUT LEGAL AUTHORITY TO SO.
might i thank such a person later for "saving my life"? sure. if i was under threat. and i might want him drawn and quartered for it too, if he accidentally shot an innocent bystander because he was inadequately trained, and in way over his head.
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 21, 2014 21:45:37 GMT -5
DJ, consider the following hypothetical: You're shopping at the grocery store and a man comes in waving a gun. You're also armed with a gun, but you're worried that if you shoot, you'll miss and wind up killing a bystander or possibly wind up killing the robber, essentially executing him for the crime of armed robbery. In that moment of hesitation, the robber points his gun at you and blows your brains out over the beef jerky stand behind you. He then proceeds to systematically execute all 16 other people in the store. After doing this, he strips the wallet from your corpse, learns your work address, and drives to your workplace where he proceeds to systematically execute your entire workforce, leaving 28 men dead or mortally wounded in his wake. Finally, with the police hot in pursuit, he drives to your residence. Your entire extended family is there for a seasonal visit, and after riddling them (and your pets) with bullets and stacking their corpses into a human barricade, he exchanges fire with police for 6 more hours, killing 9 police officers and two FBI negotiators before finally being taken down in a hail of gunfire. During the final exchange, a spark from a stray bullet ignites a puddle of oil in your neighbour's garage, setting off a conflagration that consumes three city blocks and claims the lives of a dozen firefighters and more than a hundred seniors in an assisted living complex. You're telling us you're not the least bit sorry you hesitated? You're saying you'd prefer this outcome to the one where you simply shoot the man and end his bloody rampage before it even begins? Please. We really can't take you seriously, sir.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2014 21:47:42 GMT -5
DJ, consider the following hypothetical: You're shopping at the grocery store and a man comes in waving a gun. You're also armed with a gun, but you're worried that if you shoot, you'll miss and wind up killing a bystander or possibly wind up killing the robber, essentially executing him for the crime of armed robbery. In that moment of hesitation, the robber points his gun at you and blows your brains out over the beef jerky stand behind you. He then proceeds to systematically execute all 16 other people in the store. After doing this, he strips the wallet from your corpse, learns your work address, and drives to your workplace where he proceeds to systematically execute your entire workforce, leaving 28 men dead or mortally wounded in his wake. Finally, with the police hot in pursuit, he drives to your residence. Your entire extended family is there for a seasonal visit, and after riddling them (and your pets) with bullets and stacking their corpses into a human barricade, he exchanges fire with police for 6 more hours, killing 9 police officers and two FBI negotiators before finally being taken down in a hail of gunfire. During the final exchange, a spark from a stray bullet ignites a puddle of oil in your neighbour's garage, setting off a conflagration that consumes three city blocks and claims the lives of a dozen firefighters and more than a hundred seniors in an assisted living complex. You're telling us you're not the least bit sorry you hesitated? You're saying you'd prefer this outcome to the one where you simply shoot the man and end his bloody rampage before it even begins? Please. We really can't take you seriously, sir. Wow so much drama
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 21, 2014 21:51:20 GMT -5
DJ, consider the following hypothetical: You're shopping at the grocery store and a man comes in waving a gun. You're also armed with a gun, but you're worried that if you shoot, you'll miss and wind up killing a bystander or possibly wind up killing the robber, essentially executing him for the crime of armed robbery. In that moment of hesitation, the robber points his gun at you and blows your brains out over the beef jerky stand behind you. He then proceeds to systematically execute all 16 other people in the store. After doing this, he strips the wallet from your corpse, learns your work address, and drives to your workplace where he proceeds to systematically execute your entire workforce, leaving 28 men dead or mortally wounded in his wake. Finally, with the police hot in pursuit, he drives to your residence. Your entire extended family is there for a seasonal visit, and after riddling them (and your pets) with bullets and stacking their corpses into a human barricade, he exchanges fire with police for 6 more hours, killing 9 police officers and two FBI negotiators before finally being taken down in a hail of gunfire. During the final exchange, a spark from a stray bullet ignites a puddle of oil in your neighbour's garage, setting off a conflagration that consumes three city blocks and claims the lives of a dozen firefighters and more than a hundred seniors in an assisted living complex. You're telling us you're not the least bit sorry you hesitated? You're saying you'd prefer this outcome to the one where you simply shoot the man and end his bloody rampage before it even begins? Please. We really can't take you seriously, sir. i can't really take your example seriously, either. sir. however, i have a little posting prize for you:
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 21, 2014 21:51:38 GMT -5
DJ, consider the following hypothetical: You're shopping at the grocery store and a man comes in waving a gun. You're also armed with a gun, but you're worried that if you shoot, you'll miss and wind up killing a bystander or possibly wind up killing the robber, essentially executing him for the crime of armed robbery. In that moment of hesitation, the robber points his gun at you and blows your brains out over the beef jerky stand behind you. He then proceeds to systematically execute all 16 other people in the store. After doing this, he strips the wallet from your corpse, learns your work address, and drives to your workplace where he proceeds to systematically execute your entire workforce, leaving 28 men dead or mortally wounded in his wake. Finally, with the police hot in pursuit, he drives to your residence. Your entire extended family is there for a seasonal visit, and after riddling them (and your pets) with bullets and stacking their corpses into a human barricade, he exchanges fire with police for 6 more hours, killing 9 police officers and two FBI negotiators before finally being taken down in a hail of gunfire. During the final exchange, a spark from a stray bullet ignites a puddle of oil in your neighbour's garage, setting off a conflagration that consumes three city blocks and claims the lives of a dozen firefighters and more than a hundred seniors in an assisted living complex. You're telling us you're not the least bit sorry you hesitated? You're saying you'd prefer this outcome to the one where you simply shoot the man and end his bloody rampage before it even begins? Please. We really can't take you seriously, sir. Wow so much drama I know, right? You'd think DJ might want to prevent the deaths of everyone he knows and loves, and more than 200 other people besides, but... no... I guess he can't bring himself to do it.
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 21, 2014 21:51:49 GMT -5
DJ, consider the following hypothetical: You're shopping at the grocery store and a man comes in waving a gun. You're also armed with a gun, but you're worried that if you shoot, you'll miss and wind up killing a bystander or possibly wind up killing the robber, essentially executing him for the crime of armed robbery. In that moment of hesitation, the robber points his gun at you and blows your brains out over the beef jerky stand behind you. He then proceeds to systematically execute all 16 other people in the store. After doing this, he strips the wallet from your corpse, learns your work address, and drives to your workplace where he proceeds to systematically execute your entire workforce, leaving 28 men dead or mortally wounded in his wake. Finally, with the police hot in pursuit, he drives to your residence. Your entire extended family is there for a seasonal visit, and after riddling them (and your pets) with bullets and stacking their corpses into a human barricade, he exchanges fire with police for 6 more hours, killing 9 police officers and two FBI negotiators before finally being taken down in a hail of gunfire. During the final exchange, a spark from a stray bullet ignites a puddle of oil in your neighbour's garage, setting off a conflagration that consumes three city blocks and claims the lives of a dozen firefighters and more than a hundred seniors in an assisted living complex. You're telling us you're not the least bit sorry you hesitated? You're saying you'd prefer this outcome to the one where you simply shoot the man and end his bloody rampage before it even begins? Please. We really can't take you seriously, sir. Wow so much drama frealz
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 21, 2014 21:53:34 GMT -5
I know, right? You'd think DJ might want to prevent the deaths of everyone he knows and loves, and more than 200 other people besides, but... no... I guess he can't bring himself to do it. if i wanted to save people for a living, i would be priest or a cop. me? i just want to play music and post, bro.
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 21, 2014 21:54:34 GMT -5
DJ, consider the following hypothetical: You're shopping at the grocery store and a man comes in waving a gun. You're also armed with a gun, but you're worried that if you shoot, you'll miss and wind up killing a bystander or possibly wind up killing the robber, essentially executing him for the crime of armed robbery. In that moment of hesitation, the robber points his gun at you and blows your brains out over the beef jerky stand behind you. He then proceeds to systematically execute all 16 other people in the store. After doing this, he strips the wallet from your corpse, learns your work address, and drives to your workplace where he proceeds to systematically execute your entire workforce, leaving 28 men dead or mortally wounded in his wake. Finally, with the police hot in pursuit, he drives to your residence. Your entire extended family is there for a seasonal visit, and after riddling them (and your pets) with bullets and stacking their corpses into a human barricade, he exchanges fire with police for 6 more hours, killing 9 police officers and two FBI negotiators before finally being taken down in a hail of gunfire. During the final exchange, a spark from a stray bullet ignites a puddle of oil in your neighbour's garage, setting off a conflagration that consumes three city blocks and claims the lives of a dozen firefighters and more than a hundred seniors in an assisted living complex. You're telling us you're not the least bit sorry you hesitated? You're saying you'd prefer this outcome to the one where you simply shoot the man and end his bloody rampage before it even begins? Please. We really can't take you seriously, sir. i can't really take your example seriously, either. sir. however, i have a little posting prize for you: Sure. Dodge the question.
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 21, 2014 21:56:26 GMT -5
i can't really take your example seriously, either. sir. however, i have a little posting prize for you: Sure. Dodge the question. confession time: after the third paragraph my eyes had rolled so far back into my head that i could no longer see.
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