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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2014 10:02:58 GMT -5
Wait a minute let's rethink this, If we were to stop women from driving that would mean 50% fewer cars on the road, no traffic jams, woo hoo. What's the downside to this?? ( just don't tell my wife I wrote this) Lol! Young male children (like 9 to 11 years old) who can't really see over the steering wheel driving their female relatives around. DH reports that the driving can be pretty crazy in Saudi. He was really glad the company he was working for hired a driver for him instead of him having him drive, he sort of white knuckled it just riding. His company's regional expert who gave him the run down of "dos and don'ts" said he's seen a Hummer up in a tree in Saudi. As far as happiness, I don't really aspire to every person being happy, mostly I aim for safety and flexibility. The Saudi system does make me somewhat uneasy. From what I gather, I would only go with either my husband or my dad, people I absolutely trust to listen and care about me. My understanding is that while the system can work peaceably, it is really inflexible when things go wrong or the situation starts out extremely unsafe. Workplace imbalance of official powers caused deep concern for DH personally. It's just officially very lopsided. Could be fine and people care and take things into account, but when things aren't fine, there's not much recourse from what I understand. It's just in general kind of the opposite culture of what I strive for, flexibility for unique circumstances, more balanced powers and a sense that people are people, no need to mark such heavy lines of what can and can't be done because of how someone is born.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Nov 8, 2014 10:03:01 GMT -5
When I had to drive DF, it sure controlled Bother of our lives.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Nov 8, 2014 10:04:46 GMT -5
*chuckle* Okay, I'll tell you a little bit that I know about the "oppression" of not driving. Saudi woman announces she must go shopping for the household (she runs that house with an iron glove, just in case you weren't aware). Any male not smart enough to be out wasting time where he can't be found is enlisted into service (unless there's a driver employed). He will drive her where she wishes to go (even if she wishes to go 15 places many miles apart), wait while she shops, schlep the bags, packages, and other paraphernalia out of the store and into the car at each stop, while escorting her to and from the store and seeing she's safely in the car before the next foray begins. When all's done, he gets to take her home. Then, and only then can he do what he should have done in the first place and get the F lost! PS - He was also graciously allowed to pay for it all. Sweet! "Home, James." No kidding! Those Saudi women I've known who weren't interested in driving simply had a good laugh at the Western idea of their pitiful lives. Driving was discussed often among them, even 20 years ago. Some really wanted to be able to drive, even then. Others weren't at all interested. I have little doubt it's still the same. I know it is among those I know and with whom I still maintain communication. Not all of these are wealthy; although, none are from the primitive, outlying areas so none are dirt-poor, either. My favorites were always the Bedouin women (or those from Bedouin background). They're a raucous group and do pretty much what they wish.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Nov 8, 2014 10:07:41 GMT -5
I know. I read this to DF. He didn't seem nearly as excited about the idea as I was. Go figure. I used to tease my late DH about being my mahram (male guardian). He was required to sign a promise to do just that. If I got into trouble, it was he who would be hauled off and held accountable. That's quite a rope to have around someone's neck should you (the wife) decide he (the husband) isn't behaving in a way acceptable to your high standards.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Nov 8, 2014 10:11:37 GMT -5
Uh oh..DF says no way would he be signing up for that program.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Nov 8, 2014 10:15:44 GMT -5
Uh oh..DF says no way would he be signing up for that program. Speaking of DF, how is his health coming along?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Nov 8, 2014 11:00:48 GMT -5
Thank you for asking. His heart is fine, no rejection. The weird stuff are the side effects. Like the anti rejection meds mess with your sugar so now he is insulin dependent and we have to count carbs. We'll get through it but wow.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2014 23:12:53 GMT -5
I understand that they don't care about what I think, and my happiness for them isn't a "they should do it how I want them to" thing. It's a "they should be able to choose for themselves" thing. If subservience and being "less than a man" is working for them, and they are happy with it... AWESOME! I understand that it's their culture. But can you, with your experience of having actually been there, say that 100% of the women that live in that culture are happy? If not, then my point has merit. Oh, c'mon, Richard! For Pete's sake! Let's not get ludicrous! We can't say 100% of the women that live in ANY culture are happy. Furthermore, I didn't say anything like that and you know it. What I said (in a nutshell) was: You have no business deciding what's right and fair and wunnerful for Saudi women! You ain't one! Your point has no merit and you're only making it worse. True... but in those other cultures (including this one, in the USA) are the rights basically equal... or is one gender (women) subservient to the other (men)? Where did I claim to be a Saudi woman? Please point that out for me... thanks. Inequality exists, and it's wrong. That point has merit.
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Nov 8, 2014 23:44:33 GMT -5
When my DH was an expatriate in Saudi (oil drilling and drill-bit manufacturing company he worked for based out of Houston), I was there with him for 2 yrs. I'm pleased to see that some of the oppression these women have been living under is getting more "relaxed". Yes, it's their culture and country, religion and way of life - but for a long time, women couldn't even go to school. Now many are able to attend university and become doctors, etc.
Not being able to drive is ridiculous. We had drivers a lot when we were there - and I even had to be more "modest" in my dress when in public - including covering my head and most skin - in oppressive heat.
We lived in a US owned closed condo community, so when at home everyone in our little closed community were able to be themselves. The men, when doing business, etc - could go about their business the same as here. We wives, or daughters had to pretty much "live by the land".
And I'm not surprised about the comments on the bad drivers. It's crazy over there.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Nov 8, 2014 23:54:53 GMT -5
Oh, c'mon, Richard! For Pete's sake! Let's not get ludicrous! We can't say 100% of the women that live in ANY culture are happy. Furthermore, I didn't say anything like that and you know it. What I said (in a nutshell) was: You have no business deciding what's right and fair and wunnerful for Saudi women! You ain't one! Your point has no merit and you're only making it worse. True... but in those other cultures (including this one, in the USA) are the rights basically equal... or is one gender (women) subservient to the other (men)? Where did I claim to be a Saudi woman? Please point that out for me... thanks. Inequality exists, and it's wrong. That point has merit. When you insist on opining on how things SHOULD be for Saudi women, you're overstepping your bounds, Richard. That decision isn't yours to make. It's theirs. They'll make it as individuals, not as a herd. Because you (and we in the West, in general) believe what we see as "inequality" to be wrong doesn't mean everyone has to believe the same. Some cultures don't see that as wrong. Your point has merit in Western society which is what you understand. It doesn't necessarily have merit in other cultures where things are different than they are here. Many, many Saudi women DO NOT WANT equal rights, Richard. It's not for us in the West to make that wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2014 1:46:39 GMT -5
True... but in those other cultures (including this one, in the USA) are the rights basically equal... or is one gender (women) subservient to the other (men)? Where did I claim to be a Saudi woman? Please point that out for me... thanks. Inequality exists, and it's wrong. That point has merit. When you insist on opining on how things SHOULD be for Saudi women, you're overstepping your bounds, Richard. That decision isn't yours to make. It's theirs. They'll make it as individuals, not as a herd. Because you (and we in the West, in general) believe what we see as "inequality" to be wrong doesn't mean everyone has to believe the same. Some cultures don't see that as wrong. Your point has merit in Western society which is what you understand. It doesn't necessarily have merit in other cultures where things are different than they are here. Many, many Saudi women DO NOT WANT equal rights, Richard. It's not for us in the West to make that wrong. That's just it though... isn't it? They don't GET to make that decision. That's my whole point. If they got to make the decision and then made it because they want to... GREAT! Awesome, even. I'd be willing to bet there's more than a few that "DO NOT WANT equal rights" only because their men/government/religion tells them that they don't... and that they have to accept that they don't... because the men/government/religion say so.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Nov 9, 2014 2:15:39 GMT -5
When you insist on opining on how things SHOULD be for Saudi women, you're overstepping your bounds, Richard. That decision isn't yours to make. It's theirs. They'll make it as individuals, not as a herd. Because you (and we in the West, in general) believe what we see as "inequality" to be wrong doesn't mean everyone has to believe the same. Some cultures don't see that as wrong. Your point has merit in Western society which is what you understand. It doesn't necessarily have merit in other cultures where things are different than they are here. Many, many Saudi women DO NOT WANT equal rights, Richard. It's not for us in the West to make that wrong. That's just it though... isn't it? They don't GET to make that decision. That's my whole point. If they got to make the decision and then made it because they want to... GREAT! Awesome, even. I'd be willing to bet there's more than a few that "DO NOT WANT equal rights" only because their men/government/religion tells them that they don't... and that they have to accept that they don't... because the men/government/religion say so. When you've lived among them, in their culture, Richard, your bet might hold some power. As it is, you have no knowledge with which to bet. You're just throwing defecation against the wall to see if it sticks. Just as in this country, or any country, culture has great impact on the decisions people make. That does not mean those people do not have the freedom to make their own decisions. They do. They make their decisions based on what THEY believe to be right - not on what YOU believe to be right. Some Saudi women want to drive. Some don't. It's come to the point where there are enough who do that the Kingdom may move in that direction, dragging the culture along with it. That's how it works, Richard. You don't wave your Western Magic Vorpal Wand of Doom and "fix" it for people of other cultures. Cultural changes are slow and often painstaking (and pain-making). Most importantly, they're to be made by the people of the country in which the culture exists. They're not to be made by he who believes he has a "better way". Better for whom must be considered, I'm afraid - unless you've been elected emperor of the world and nobody told me.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2014 2:32:15 GMT -5
It was a secret ballot... women were not allowed.
ETA: you are missing my point anyway.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Nov 9, 2014 8:46:03 GMT -5
Laws like women not being allowed to drive is why Religion and Government should never mix. If the ban actually does get lifted, I shall be happier for the women that live there than I am now... but I still won't be "completely happy" until they are seen as equals to men... in everything. Frankly, Richard, the "women that live there" don't give a flip whether you're happy, or not. Furthermore, many of them don't wish to be "seen as equals to men". They're happy with the lives they live. It's not your culture. It's theirs. You don't understand it? Big deal. Many Saudi women want to drive. I'm glad the strictures are loosening, but I've been expecting this. This is only the first, baby step. It'll take awhile. There are still many, many Saudi women who don't wish to drive. The Bedouin women have been driving their water trucks right along. We in the West need to mind our own damned business in things like this. We do not understand them. Interesting. Sounds like one of the arguments for slavery. Wow.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Nov 9, 2014 8:47:44 GMT -5
The Real War on women . But nary a peep. They LIKE being oppressed and honor killed. How silly of us.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Nov 9, 2014 9:01:33 GMT -5
It was a secret ballot... women were not allowed. ETA: you are missing my point anyway. It was also the Shura Council that took that secret ballot. They don't make laws. They make recommendations. When they decide to discuss something this "big", you can bet they'll do it secretly. Not only were women not allowed to participate in the ballot; neither was anyone else not on the Shura Council. This is a huge step forward for the more progressive in the Kingdom, but no recommendation by the Council is going to suddenly change years of cultural morés. This is going to take time. I'm quite surprised they've made the recommendation so soon. I didn't expect it until after women's right to vote is implemented next year. I don't think I'm missing your point, Richard. I think you believe your Western views should apply everywhere in the world. If they don't, that part of the world is doing it wrong. I couldn't disagree more. It's that simple.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Nov 9, 2014 9:02:36 GMT -5
The Real War on women . But nary a peep. They LIKE being oppressed and honor killed. How silly of us. Nobody's talking about honor killings. We're talking about driving, and you don't know one damned thing about what "they" like.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2014 9:28:04 GMT -5
The Real War on women . But nary a peep. They LIKE being oppressed and honor killed. How silly of us. Honour killing is rare. How many women are killed at USA by ex husband and bf. They are less dead because you did not use honour word? Better to fix your own culture before you judge the other.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Nov 9, 2014 9:54:04 GMT -5
Hey, I'm the size of a lot of 11 year olds and I drive!
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Nov 9, 2014 10:09:59 GMT -5
The Real War on women . But nary a peep. They LIKE being oppressed and honor killed. How silly of us. Nobody's talking about honor killings. We're talking about driving, and you don't know one damned thing about what "they" like. Nor do you.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Nov 9, 2014 10:11:06 GMT -5
But , but , but they like being second class citizens!
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Nov 9, 2014 10:11:44 GMT -5
The Real War on women . But nary a peep. They LIKE being oppressed and honor killed. How silly of us. Honour killing is rare. How many women are killed at USA by ex husband and bf. They are less dead because you did not use honour word? Better to fix your own culture before you judge the other. Honor killing is also rare in Saudi Arabia and virtually nonexistent except in rural, primitive areas. Are all who do such a dreadful thing caught and punished? No. As you point out, tiki, we have domestic violence and murder here in the USA. Are all perpetrators caught and punished? No. If the perpetrator of such a deed is caught, does that perpetrator always get the punishment we, the public, believe is deserved? No. Do they sometimes get away with it even though caught? Yes. You're correct, IMO. It's the same thing. It's murder.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Nov 9, 2014 10:13:03 GMT -5
But , but , but they like being second class citizens! You don't have a clue what "they" like, as I said. When you get a clue, let us know. I'd hazard a guess you don't know one soul who is a Saudi citizen living in Saudi Arabia. Not one. You've never been there and know absolutely nothing about the people, or the culture.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2014 10:20:07 GMT -5
But , but , but they like being second class citizens! Women that went to America with European invaders had equal rights? Probably no. All they were unhappy? Probably no. Now American women are totally equal? All they have equal pay and equal chance? No. All they are unhappy?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2014 19:34:32 GMT -5
It was a secret ballot... women were not allowed. ETA: you are missing my point anyway. It was also the Shura Council that took that secret ballot. They don't make laws. They make recommendations. When they decide to discuss something this "big", you can bet they'll do it secretly. Not only were women not allowed to participate in the ballot; neither was anyone else not on the Shura Council. This is a huge step forward for the more progressive in the Kingdom, but no recommendation by the Council is going to suddenly change years of cultural morés. This is going to take time. I'm quite surprised they've made the recommendation so soon. I didn't expect it until after women's right to vote is implemented next year. I don't think I'm missing your point, Richard. I think you believe your Western views should apply everywhere in the world. If they don't, that part of the world is doing it wrong. I couldn't disagree more. It's that simple. Since that wasn't my point, you just verified that you missed it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2014 19:39:17 GMT -5
But , but , but they like being second class citizens! Women that went to America with European invaders had equal rights? Probably no. All they were unhappy? Probably no. Now American women are totally equal? All they have equal pay and equal chance? No. All they are unhappy? Actually, yes. They do. IF they want and ask for it (just like men).
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2014 19:57:18 GMT -5
Women that went to America with European invaders had equal rights? Probably no. All they were unhappy? Probably no. Now American women are totally equal? All they have equal pay and equal chance? No. All they are unhappy? Actually, yes. They do. IF they want and ask for it (just like men).
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2014 19:58:49 GMT -5
Wage gap narrows slightly but statistically unchangedAlthough the gender wage gap narrowed slightly in 2013, it still remains statistically unchanged. Women's earnings were 78.3 percent of men's in 2013, compared to 76.5 percent in 2012, according to Census statistics released September 18, 2014 based on the median earnings of all full-time, year-round workers. In 2013, men's earnings were $50,033 and women's were $39,157, a difference of $10,876. National committee on pay equity
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2014 20:08:07 GMT -5
Wage gap narrows slightly but statistically unchangedAlthough the gender wage gap narrowed slightly in 2013, it still remains statistically unchanged. Women's earnings were 78.3 percent of men's in 2013, compared to 76.5 percent in 2012, according to Census statistics released September 18, 2014 based on the median earnings of all full-time, year-round workers. In 2013, men's earnings were $50,033 and women's were $39,157, a difference of $10,876. National committee on pay equity I didn't say there wasn't one. I said it exists by choice (of the women). There have been many studies done that suggest that if women would ASK for more, they would GET more. That's why there is the pay gap that there is. Men DO ask for more. If you don't believe me...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2014 20:10:09 GMT -5
Wage gap narrows slightly but statistically unchangedAlthough the gender wage gap narrowed slightly in 2013, it still remains statistically unchanged. Women's earnings were 78.3 percent of men's in 2013, compared to 76.5 percent in 2012, according to Census statistics released September 18, 2014 based on the median earnings of all full-time, year-round workers. In 2013, men's earnings were $50,033 and women's were $39,157, a difference of $10,876. National committee on pay equity I didn't say there wasn't one. I said it exists by choice (of the women). There have been many studies done that suggest that if women would ASK for more, they would GET more. That's why there is the pay gap that there is. Men DO ask for more. If you don't believe me... You are victims blamer big time.
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