tractor
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Post by tractor on Oct 14, 2014 8:10:09 GMT -5
Can suck sometimes. I struggle with being a dad who wants to maintain open communication with my sons (no daughters), but I also need to be a hard ass to kick them in the butt once and awhile to get them moving. My dad was a very strict, quick to strike asshole when I was growing up, we learned to fear him and never had a relationship with him when we were younger. Now that he's older, he depends on us, but that's another topic.
I don't want my kids to fear me, and in general I've done a good job with that, but last night I needed to get my oldest off the couch to get some things done to meet college application deadlines. I don't think it went well. I know I'm not his friend, and I've told him that he has to have the application done by Wednesday to meet the admission requirements, and after asking him to do it twice over the course of an hour last night, I had to get really upset in order to get a response. UGH, why are teenagers so apathetic and short sighted? I'm trying to help him get things in place for his future, but he is only worried about the here and now.
Not much of a question, but for some reason this is weighing heavily on me this morning. Is it better to let your kids fail even if you are the one who ends up paying for it? How do you make them see that even the slightest bit of effort will go a long way towards their future?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2014 8:17:12 GMT -5
I don't know the answer, but I was thinking about that myself last night. My son needs to be cattle-prodded into everything and frankly, I'm tired. I have enough on my plate as it is without having to make sure his homework is done and I wonder if I'm hurting him more than helping by going through it every night. Once he's off on his own will he just be a total slug without external forcing?
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Oct 14, 2014 8:19:14 GMT -5
I'm the mother of a girl so our experiences are 100% different. That being said, I REALLY hate the cinderella syndrome a lot of women seem to have and am working very hard to raise a girl/woman who never expects to be dependent on anyone but herself. In my marriage I'm the hardass and DH is the softie (not really but those are the roles we have, for the most part we are in agreement in parenting style). We let DD fail and let her accept the consequences of those actions. The college application thing is a toughie. There's nothing wrong with guiding the kids and even kicking them in the ass sometimes. They don't always truly appreciate (yet) that shit has to get done on time. DD is currently carrying two B's because she forgot to turn in (completed) homework on time. This is a recurring theme with her. She's lost her smart phone privilidges until she gets back to straight A's (of which she is easily capable). Sucks to be her but that's the breaks kid. She knows it's on her, and knows that she now has to work harder (and do more chores for phone access for an hour here and there) because she didn't get it together a few times earlier. So far we're not getting much attitude (she's almost 12) and I REALLY hope it stays that way .
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tractor
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Post by tractor on Oct 14, 2014 8:31:35 GMT -5
I don't know the answer, but I was thinking about that myself last night. My son needs to be cattle-prodded into everything and frankly, I'm tired. I have enough on my plate as it is without having to make sure his homework is done and I wonder if I'm hurting him more than helping by going through it every night. Once he's off on his own will he just be a total slug without external forcing? I know my son is not unique, but it gets real old having to do things over and over doesn't it? He will need money to buy homecoming tickets this week. I really want to tell him he should of thought of that when I wanted something from him, but I know I will be handing him the cash.
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Regis
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Post by Regis on Oct 14, 2014 8:36:31 GMT -5
So far we're not getting much attitude (she's almost 12) and I REALLY hope it stays that way . We need to pin this and re-visit in about two years! Junior high is rough - for both boys and girls. With two boys and a girl, my experience is that the girls can just get plain nasty. But don't worry. My daughter just came home from college for the first time (fall break). Now that she's had to do a lot more for herself without DW and me around, she's a much more pleasant young lady. And to answer the OP, yeah, sometimes you have to give them just enough rope to almost hang themselves.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Oct 14, 2014 8:42:34 GMT -5
So far we're not getting much attitude (she's almost 12) and I REALLY hope it stays that way . We need to pin this and re-visit in about two years! Junior high is rough - for both boys and girls. With two boys and a girl, my experience is that the girls can just get plain nasty. But don't worry. My daughter just came home from college for the first time (fall break). Now that she's had to do a lot more for herself without DW and me around, she's a much more pleasant young lady. And to answer the OP, yeah, sometimes you have to give them just enough rope to almost hang themselves. Yea, umm nasty doesn't fly in my house. We have ways of making her "adjust" her attitude. 1. Scrub the floors with your toothbrush 2. Wash every blade of grass 3. Watch a PBS garden show marathon with mom 4. Paint the garage then watch it dry 5. Dust the books. Like all 800 of them. Take each one off the shelf, flip the pages and vac in between. She gets a choice from the above, we are reasonable and want her to develop a sense of independence after all . Or she can change her attitude. My books still need a good dusting...
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on Oct 14, 2014 8:46:29 GMT -5
My brother was like this. My parents would force him to do the homework and he wouldn't turn it in. In the fall of his senior year, my dad and stepmom separated and divorced. My dad was tired of the endless battles and he didn't have time for them anymore. He laid out his expectations of my brother: graduate, don't get in trouble with the law, don't get anyone pregnant and get a plan for after graduation because no job or no college wasn't going to fly.
My brother was very close to turning 18 at that time. He graduated some classes by the skin of his teeth. He started a good career type job that August after graduation and August 2015 will be his 10 year anniversary. He currently holds an electrician's license as well. He'll be eligible for full retirement with a defined benefit pension at 45. His job is starting a new quality assurance department for the type of work he does now and he was hand picked to apply. He'll be great at that.
I get your frustration, I've been there. The thing is he's smarter than me, I'm just more organized, better at English and writing and I'll play the games to get the grade (ie keep a notebook, show work, do the homework). Math and sciene he's amazing at. He does my car maintenance and can build stuff. He does train maintenance at work and he can tell you how they work and why this broken part is a problem. Our brains just work differently. He's borderline ADHD and if he isn't interested in then you can forget it. For my parents there was a light at the end of the tunnel though. It can be hard though when you are in it.
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Oct 14, 2014 8:49:39 GMT -5
There ARE times when kids DO need a "boot in the buns". The college application process is a perfect example. You really don't want them living in your basement when they're 30. You want them to get out in the world where their "real" learning begins.
I agree with deminmaine, as I've always told my kids that "I'm your parent first, & your friend second". And tractor, does your son have his first part-time job yet? If not, it's time he started to cover some of his own expenses.
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on Oct 14, 2014 8:52:14 GMT -5
My aunt tells her girls that when she gave birth to them she signed up to be their mother and that she'll be their friend when they are 30. Yeah that switch will happen before 30 but you get the idea.
She's a surrogate mom/friend to me. My mom's a sucky parent and my aunt has the type of career/life I want for myself.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2014 8:57:54 GMT -5
My brother was like this. My parents would force him to do the homework and he wouldn't turn it in. Ha! This is what got me thinking about tractor's question about when is helping hurting. I had went to parent teacher conferences and found out he was missing a bunch of work, work I KNEW he had done because I had stood over him and made sure he did it. But it just ended up crumpled up in the bottom of his backpack somewhere. Man, was I pissed off. On the plus side, this is the first year he's getting actual grades and when he heard he was getting a C in English I could just see the per-adolescent silliness slide off his face. For years his conferences have always been about how smart and fun he is. For the first time he had a teacher that doesn't seem to care about his potential, just what he does and that was a shock for him. He really is very disorganized which is half his problem and I don't know how to help him with that.
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on Oct 14, 2014 9:03:39 GMT -5
My brother was like this. My parents would force him to do the homework and he wouldn't turn it in. Ha! This is what got me thinking about tractor's question about when is helping hurting. I had went to parent teacher conferences and found out he was missing a bunch of work, work I KNEW he had done because I had stood over him and made sure he did it. But it just ended up crumpled up in the bottom of his backpack somewhere. Man, was I pissed off. On the plus side, this is the first year he's getting actual grades and when he heard he was getting a C in English I could just see the per-adolescent silliness slide off his face. For years his conferences have always been about how smart and fun he is. For the first time he had a teacher that doesn't seem to care about his potential, just what he does and that was a shock for him. He really is very disorganized which is half his problem and I don't know how to help him with that. I wish I had an answer for you on that. My brother's vehicles and his room are an epic disaster. Trying to find something is an adventure. I think my brother's teachers were so annoyed with him because they knew how smart he was. He was barely passing math one year. Standardized testing came around and he decided to apply himself. He scored 100% on both math tests and his teacher wanted to strangle him. I don't know if maybe you could find a system that works for him? I know when I deviate from my organizational system, I forget crap I'm supposed to do.
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tractor
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Post by tractor on Oct 14, 2014 9:11:22 GMT -5
Boy doesn't have a job, one of my failings. He does very well in school, and I consider that his job. He has had very few wants, and I've paid for those along with all of his needs. He has plenty of cash saved up from Christmas and Birthdays and one small job he did for the neighbor.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 14, 2014 9:12:42 GMT -5
Ugh. The lack of organizational system is such a toughie. Until they get some sort of system they can live with, it's an uphill battle of encouragement, structure, modeling and sometimes just letting them fail. (Not sure I'd be able to do that last one on the college app process, though.)
Is it wrong that I'm a little bit relieved that I'm not the only one who has knuckleheaded kids who complete their homework but don't always manage to turn it in?
WTH is up with that? I could understand it if they didn't do the homework, but to put in the effort and then not bother to just hand it in? Does not compute, does not compute... feel like my head is smoking and building up pressure to explode when I discover that one.
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Oct 14, 2014 9:12:52 GMT -5
We use a set of hard plastic folders in DS's backpack. One for each class. Any paperwork put inside them doesn't get wrecked, & it's an easy way for me to check & see if he's got homework.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 14, 2014 9:19:51 GMT -5
Well, I not only would not be handing over cash for homecoming, he wouldn't be going to homecoming. Consequences of not doing what's right need to suck. But if he is this unmotivated, maybe college isn't for him? Pissing away good money is not YM! Time to talk turkey. What are HIS plans? Graduation is sooner than you both think.
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Ryan
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Post by Ryan on Oct 14, 2014 9:24:58 GMT -5
My kids are younger, but I struggle with that as well. I’m a pretty patient person so they know when I’m ramping up the pressure and act accordingly.
Some kids are flighty-er than others and need their parents to stay on top of them a little more than other kids. My oldest is in Kindergarten and knows what he has each day of the week and prepares accordingly. When he is in gym, he remembers he needs to wear gym shoes and running pants. When he has library, he puts his library book in his bag the night before. But overall, he needs a lot of prodding in other areas like getting dressed, getting ready for bed, and eating. As long as I can slowly move him along the way and let him fail on a small scale, then hopefully it will accumulate as he gets older.
I was kind of a lolly-gagger growing up, but turned out fine. I would’ve benefited a lot more if my parents stayed on top of me.
I guess the trick is knowing when you’re enabling them and when you’re moving them towards responsibility. Personally, I think letting them fail big time does not end well.
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Oct 14, 2014 9:32:19 GMT -5
Ugh. The lack of organizational system is such a toughie. Until they get some sort of system they can live with, it's an uphill battle of encouragement, structure, modeling and sometimes just letting them fail. (Not sure I'd be able to do that last one on the college app process, though.)
Is it wrong that I'm a little bit relieved that I'm not the only one who has knuckleheaded kids who complete their homework but don't always manage to turn it in?
WTH is up with that? I could understand it if they didn't do the homework, but to put in the effort and then not bother to just hand it in? Does not compute, does not compute... feel like my head is smoking and building up pressure to explode when I discover that one.
I have to say I'm also a little bit relieved that I'm not the only one. My kids are younger (8 & 9) so the specifics are different, but most days I'm completely exasperated by the amount of encouragement, structure, and modeling I have to provide. Hugs to you OP.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Oct 14, 2014 9:41:09 GMT -5
Ugh. The lack of organizational system is such a toughie. Until they get some sort of system they can live with, it's an uphill battle of encouragement, structure, modeling and sometimes just letting them fail. (Not sure I'd be able to do that last one on the college app process, though.)
Is it wrong that I'm a little bit relieved that I'm not the only one who has knuckleheaded kids who complete their homework but don't always manage to turn it in?
WTH is up with that? I could understand it if they didn't do the homework, but to put in the effort and then not bother to just hand it in? Does not compute, does not compute... feel like my head is smoking and building up pressure to explode when I discover that one.
Right there with you!!! DD would be carrying a high A average if she didn't get half off for late turn in.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 14, 2014 9:50:45 GMT -5
Not sure if I'd tie this issue to Homecoming or not. But if I did, it wouldn't be my first discussion on the subject. Like Ryan described, I tend to ramp up. (Unlike Ryan, I'm not a very patient person, so have to really work on it...) But here's an example of how this whole college app situation would evolve in our house:
3 weeks prior to due date: "AwesomeSlugTeenSon, when exactly are those college apps due? You say in 3 weeks? OK, so what's your plan for getting them done? Let's talk for a few minutes about why they're important and what happens if you don't do them or get them in late. We can also take a look together at some examples or tips on the internet." (BTW, he probably won't want to sit with me and look through examples or tips, but usually it's enough to mention and offer so that he'll be prompted to do that on his own.)
2 weeks prior to dd: "ASTS, I'm just checking on how those college apps are coming. Do you have a draft I could take a look at yet? No? When do you think that will be ready? OK, I'll look for that by Friday."
Friday, 1.5 weeks prior to dd: "ASTS, it's Friday. Do you have those college apps?.... No? And did you just give me the stink eye, really? Dude, I'm old. If you get these apps in late I'll probably have a heart attack and die of grief at the thought of you living in my basement forever. Do you really want the guilt of knowing that while I lay dying the last thing I saw of you was you giving me the stink eye? .... Let's try to prevent my imminent heart failure and have those apps ready by Wednesday. I'll look for them on Wednesday."
Wednesday, 1 week prior to dd: "ASTS, I can't wait to see those college apps - lay them on me. .... Did you just grunt at me? Hm, I can't tell if that's better or worse than when you gave me the stink eye last week, but I'm going to interpret that grunt as "I love you more than life, mom, so I have no idea why I haven't completed those college apps." .... Is there a problem with the apps that you want to talk about? .... No? Ok, I've been pretty patient here, so it's time to give you fair warning. Getting your college apps in on time is one of those little things that if you don't do them on time can really screw up your entire life, so it's not something I can let you fail at. Let me be really clear here that if you choose not to get these apps done on time, that is showing me that you are not mature enough to make good choices on important issues that impact your life for the long term. So I'm going to have to assume that you're not capable of making mature, good choices in regards to __________ (insert favorite activity here - for my son it will be driving, for OP's it may be taking a girl to Homecoming.) If I don't have those apps to review by Tuesday, you will not be _______________. "
Monday, 2 days prior to dd: "I know you're going to make the right choice and get those apps done and to me by tomorrow, so I'm not even going to ask you about them. But let me know if you need help with anything on there. Man, this reminds me of __________ "(insert funny college memory here to let him know that even though I'm totally serious about his punishment should he make the wrong choice, I love him as a person and am trying to keep the lines of talk open.)
Tuesday, 1 day prior to dd: "Hey, these apps look great. I can't wait to see what these colleges say." or "OK, so the apps aren't ready on time. Looks like you won't be ________. And you'll be staying up all night to work on them until they're done. Get going now."
So maybe he wouldn't be going to Homecoming, but that would be a last resort punishment to be deployed after a long process of modeling, discussing and ever increasing pressure.
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teen persuasion
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Post by teen persuasion on Oct 14, 2014 9:52:10 GMT -5
We've been struggling with this problem with DS4, lately, too. Just got five week reports, and he's got a 30 in history! Turned in something too late, and it was majority of the period's grade. Last semester, it was problems with chem labs. He can manage the XC training and meets and invitationals, but school stuff falls by the wayside. Missed the bus this morning because he was emailing a file to print in school, some thing he had a long weekend to take care of AND we reminded him several times. We've tried hands off, we've tried mentioning things daily to keep on top, not sure what the answer is.
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tractor
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Post by tractor on Oct 14, 2014 10:03:27 GMT -5
Can suck sometimes. I struggle with being a dad who wants to maintain open communication with my sons (no daughters), but I also need to be a hard ass to kick them in the butt once and awhile to get them moving. My dad was a very strict, quick to strike asshole when I was growing up, we learned to fear him and never had a relationship with him when we were younger. Now that he's older, he depends on us, but that's another topic. I don't want my kids to fear me, and in general I've done a good job with that, but last night I needed to get my oldest off the couch to get some things done to meet college application deadlines. I don't think it went well. I know I'm not his friend, and I've told him that he has to have the application done by Wednesday to meet the admission requirements, and after asking him to do it twice over the course of an hour last night, I had to get really upset in order to get a response. UGH, why are teenagers so apathetic and short sighted? I'm trying to help him get things in place for his future, but he is only worried about the here and now. Not much of a question, but for some reason this is weighing heavily on me this morning. Is it better to let your kids fail even if you are the one who ends up paying for it? How do you make them see that even the slightest bit of effort will go a long way towards their future? does he want to go to college? Was it he decision to do so? Yes, he wants to go to college. He had a 3.9 GPA and got a 31 on his ACTs. He is applying to five different schools. The first one is due this Friday, but he needs to get the on-line stuff done by Wednesday so his High School can attach his transcripts and send it in. It's not like the old days, everything is done on-line now. What he's not factoring in is enough lead time for the High School to do their thing. He still believes everyone waits until the last minute and will drop everything to help him. He will get accepted wherever he applies, he knows that which is why he's in no hurry. I'm in a hurry because it's first come first served for financial aid, and I don't want him to miss out on any potential $.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 14, 2014 10:07:36 GMT -5
Well, if he misses out on financial aid, it's on him.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 14, 2014 10:10:00 GMT -5
DS was a dawdler, too. I enlisted his teachers help. Consequences coming from her were more effective than the ones coming from me.
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Abby Normal
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Post by Abby Normal on Oct 14, 2014 10:14:20 GMT -5
Ironic that you should post this. I came unglued last night because we couldn't find something of DS's that he needs for tonight. After giving up and going to bed, I was greeted this morning to the fact that he didn't know where his house keys were. "Well obviously nowhere we looked last night or we would have seen them".
His level of disorganization, laziness, and apathy around the house are killing me. I know alot of it is hormones. He's keeping his grades up but at home he's a sloth.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 14, 2014 10:22:25 GMT -5
Does the boy have chores assigned at home, tractor? I know you said he didn't have a job and I can understand that. School was the job for my kids, too, but they also had chores at home for which they were responsible and through which they earned money for extras - like homecoming expenses.
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sesfw
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Post by sesfw on Oct 14, 2014 10:24:48 GMT -5
UGH, why are teenagers so apathetic and short sighted?
Because it's their job right now to be button pushers, and they are very good at it.
It would be too bad if he missed out on the college he wants because of this but ultimately it's his decision. Maybe him spending a year or two at the local community college and working part time to pay for it will wake him up.
Deadline is approaching ......... his decision.
Something I heard many years ago. On the 13th birthday you seal them in a barrel, 16th birthday you poke a hole in the barrel to get food to them. Let teens out on their 21st birthday.
Problem solved.
Good luck. Just keep remembering who the parent is.
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Ryan
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Post by Ryan on Oct 14, 2014 10:25:16 GMT -5
does he want to go to college? Was it he decision to do so? Yes, he wants to go to college. He had a 3.9 GPA and got a 31 on his ACTs. He is applying to five different schools. The first one is due this Friday, but he needs to get the on-line stuff done by Wednesday so his High School can attach his transcripts and send it in. It's not like the old days, everything is done on-line now. What he's not factoring in is enough lead time for the High School to do their thing. He still believes everyone waits until the last minute and will drop everything to help him. He will get accepted wherever he applies, he knows that which is why he's in no hurry. I'm in a hurry because it's first come first served for financial aid, and I don't want him to miss out on any potential $. I think you are doing the right thing and staying on top of him. I'd try the soft approach of explaining that it's so important that you want to make sure it's finished in time. And if he still doesn't respond, then start really hassling him. If he gets grades like that and an ACT score like that, then he's already responsible. He probably just doesn't see the urgency in doing what you're asking him. This is not something where I would just let him fail and learn his lesson.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2014 10:25:44 GMT -5
It's all about figuring out what is important to them and convincing them they could lose that. With GW it is the chance to go away to university. When she starts slacking I tell her how much I will enjoy having her home with me next year too. I wasn't really ready to let her go anyway. After giving me a dirty look she does what she needs to do. With NGW it is material things she hopes to get from me. I tell her I would be stupid to give stuff to someone that lies to me, uses me and isn't doing what she needs to do to help herself. And no, it's not the fun part of parenting.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Oct 14, 2014 10:31:05 GMT -5
Maybe things are different now, but when I was in high school/junior high, I remember the teacher prompting the class to turn in homework. Usually at the beginning, they'd do something like "hand in your homework, pass it to the person in front of you."
If you had it with you, you'd remember to turn it in. if it was in your locker or left at home, that might be another story.
How does it happen at your kids' school? Does the teacher just not mention to turn in your homework and just expect the students to leave it in a tray on their desk or something?
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 14, 2014 10:36:43 GMT -5
It's all about figuring out what is important to them and convincing them they could lose that. With GW it is the chance to go away to university. When she starts slacking I tell her how much I will enjoy having her home with me next year too. I do that, too. It's awful, but if he's slacking on certain things, I don't say anything other than, "You need to start practicing the phrase, 'Do you want fries with that?' "
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