Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Oct 3, 2014 14:03:20 GMT -5
I have School of Choice where I live and I do not like it. Why should I have to pay more to live in a good school district and then some schmo' from a less desirable neighborhood gets to invade my area? Hehe!! My kid is a schmo screwing up your richie rich school.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 3, 2014 14:14:59 GMT -5
So, for me, I would prefer if my kid went to a low performing school since it would be easier to get accepted to a Good University
But it could cost them in aid. Quite a few scholarships that were offered at my school looked at your class rank and class percentage.
While the school itself is not that terrible my graduating class had the highest drop out rate in 15 years (woo hoo!) so people's class rankings and percentages were moving all over the charts.
I had several friends end up disqualified for scholarships when, thanks to people dropping out, their rank/percentage changed and no longer fit the scholarship requirements. One friend challenged on the grounds that nothing about her grades or anything had changed. What had changed is 15 people dropped out that WEEK so everyone's class rankings had to be adjusted. I can't remember if she won or not.
So yeah being a "top performer" in a low performing situation is not automatically advantageous. It could still seriously cost you because of what the low performers are doing around you.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Oct 3, 2014 14:17:24 GMT -5
We have school of choice here & I really like it. It allows any parent who cares enough to send their kid to a good school despite where they live.
I was looking it up because of the thread yesterday, but I live 5 houses down from the 51st ranked elementary school in my city. My son is attending the 2nd ranked school because his education is important to me. I feel I made a good choice & the school is excellent.
I actually know more parents opting into other schools or sending their kids to charter schools than those that just go to neighborhood schools. But, I will admit that is mostly due to the type of people that I associate with, because I think the norm is still to just go to the neighborhood school because it is easier.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Oct 3, 2014 14:19:09 GMT -5
So, for me, I would prefer if my kid went to a low performing school since it would be easier to get accepted to a Good University
But it could cost them in aid. Quite a few scholarships that were offered at my school looked at your class rank and class percentage.
There is also a huge assumption that you are actually getting an equal education. My guess is that you are not. When most kids are underperforming, then classes have to be geared towards them. There aren't going to be as many advanced or AP/IB classes offered because not enough students will be at the level to take them.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2014 14:20:50 GMT -5
We have school of choice here & I really like it. It allows any parent who cares enough to send their kid to a good school despite where they live. I was looking it up because of the thread yesterday, but I live 5 houses down from the 51st ranked elementary school in my city. My son is attending the 2nd ranked school because his education is important to me. I feel I made a good choice & the school is excellent. I actually know more parents opting into other schools or sending their kids to charter schools than those that just go to neighborhood schools. But, I will admit that is mostly due to the type of people that I associate with, because I think the norm is still to just go to the neighborhood school because it is easier. So, why would anyone send to the worst school in the city if they could have their choice of any of them? Proximity?
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 3, 2014 14:25:03 GMT -5
I got stuck in regular senior English class because I wanted to take Spanish for college credit.
OMG I wanted to shoot myself. The teacher gave me the AP syllabus and I operated from that on my own time because she had to spend so much time with the other students. She knew I should have been in AP and didn't want me having to be drug along at the other students' pace.
They were just really launching the AP/college credit courses when I was attending. They now offer many more of both and have a dual program with IWCC where you can take classes there. They also have a partnership with UNMC to offer research opportunities during the summer for kids interesting in STEM degrees.
I went to HS at the wrong time.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Oct 3, 2014 14:25:03 GMT -5
We have school of choice here & I really like it. It allows any parent who cares enough to send their kid to a good school despite where they live. I was looking it up because of the thread yesterday, but I live 5 houses down from the 51st ranked elementary school in my city. My son is attending the 2nd ranked school because his education is important to me. I feel I made a good choice & the school is excellent. I actually know more parents opting into other schools or sending their kids to charter schools than those that just go to neighborhood schools. But, I will admit that is mostly due to the type of people that I associate with, because I think the norm is still to just go to the neighborhood school because it is easier. So, why would anyone send to the worst school in the city if they could have their choice of any of them? Proximity? You have to supply transportation. So, yeah I am going to go with proximity & laziness. I think for a lot of people a school is a school.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2014 14:27:10 GMT -5
We have school of choice here & I really like it. It allows any parent who cares enough to send their kid to a good school despite where they live. I was looking it up because of the thread yesterday, but I live 5 houses down from the 51st ranked elementary school in my city. My son is attending the 2nd ranked school because his education is important to me. I feel I made a good choice & the school is excellent. I actually know more parents opting into other schools or sending their kids to charter schools than those that just go to neighborhood schools. But, I will admit that is mostly due to the type of people that I associate with, because I think the norm is still to just go to the neighborhood school because it is easier. So, why would anyone send to the worst school in the city if they could have their choice of any of them? Proximity? because usually if you go outside your school you have to either provide transportation or they get a bus that's further away than the normal bus stop (centrally located) and not everyone has a flexible enough job to get them to and from that stop. DS1 wanted to go to the high school with the STEM program but most likely the bus would have picked up at the middle school. how was I supposed to be at work at 6:45 am (leaving at 6) and get him to a bus stop at 6 that was 10 miles in the opposite direction? or when I worked the 7 pm to 7 am shift, I wouldn't even be home.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Oct 3, 2014 14:29:44 GMT -5
So, why would anyone send to the worst school in the city if they could have their choice of any of them? Proximity? because usually if you go outside your school you have to either provide transportation or they get a bus that's further away than the normal bus stop (centrally located) and not everyone has a flexible enough job to get them to and from that stop. DS1 wanted to go to the high school with the STEM program but most likely the bus would have picked up at the middle school. how was I supposed to be at work at 6:45 am (leaving at 6) and get him to a bus stop at 6 that was 10 miles in the opposite direction? or when I worked the 7 pm to 7 am shift, I wouldn't even be home. Pay someone to drive him to school would be the easiest solution.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Oct 3, 2014 14:30:14 GMT -5
We have school of choice here & I really like it. It allows any parent who cares enough to send their kid to a good school despite where they live. I was looking it up because of the thread yesterday, but I live 5 houses down from the 51st ranked elementary school in my city. My son is attending the 2nd ranked school because his education is important to me. I feel I made a good choice & the school is excellent. I actually know more parents opting into other schools or sending their kids to charter schools than those that just go to neighborhood schools. But, I will admit that is mostly due to the type of people that I associate with, because I think the norm is still to just go to the neighborhood school because it is easier. So, why would anyone send to the worst school in the city if they could have their choice of any of them? Proximity? Here, I think if you don't do the 3 choice paperwork or are denied all 3 choices; the parent gets a list of schools with open slots to pick from. I was in the waiting room and overheard someone going down the list for high schools - it did not include the college prep schools or the specialty ones for drama, etc. I recognized several of them as ones there the cops visit on a daily basis and where Med units respond to for fights.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2014 14:32:21 GMT -5
I don't think school choice is a good thing for the society, but I do think it is good for the individual child. If I was assigned a crappy school and had the option to send DD to a better school, I totally would schlep her all the way across town. And so would all the other involved parents. In this way the assigned school loses the kids and parents who would have made the school better. The assigned school is left with the kids who couldn't get in anywhere else or whose parents aren't pushing them(generalization of course).
I went to some pretty crappy inner city schools, but it was before the internet. Parents didn't have all the information they have now to know just how crappy the schools were. My mom was uninvolved, but I was often in classes with kids who had parents that were really motivating their kids to do well. It provided a bit of peer pressure to do well. Now those good parents would pull their children out of that school, either for open enrolment, homeschooling, or just moving to the best they can afford. I'm not any different. DD is enrolled at the best school in the area, because we can afford to live in that area. I have no solution, but it seems the difference in education between the middle class and the poor is just expanding.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2014 14:36:19 GMT -5
because usually if you go outside your school you have to either provide transportation or they get a bus that's further away than the normal bus stop (centrally located) and not everyone has a flexible enough job to get them to and from that stop. DS1 wanted to go to the high school with the STEM program but most likely the bus would have picked up at the middle school. how was I supposed to be at work at 6:45 am (leaving at 6) and get him to a bus stop at 6 that was 10 miles in the opposite direction? or when I worked the 7 pm to 7 am shift, I wouldn't even be home. Pay someone to drive him to school would be the easiest solution. well he's graduated at this point....I can't imagine what that would have cost. up to 10 trips a week and I'm sure on my days off I would have still been paying someone because I doubt anyone would want a job that's 4 days this week, 2 days next week and so on. staying in his home school worked out better, but I was replying to MPL's question about why someone wouldn't switch schools. it's not as easy as enrolling them in the school.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Oct 3, 2014 14:43:19 GMT -5
Pay someone to drive him to school would be the easiest solution. well he's graduated at this point....I can't imagine what that would have cost. up to 10 trips a week and I'm sure on my days off I would have still been paying someone because I doubt anyone would want a job that's 4 days this week, 2 days next week and so on. staying in his home school worked out better, but I was replying to MPL's question about why someone wouldn't switch schools. it's not as easy as enrolling them in the school. I know. I was just pointing out there are options beyond a parent driving. I think if it is important enough there are ways to make it work. Although at some point you have to weigh the cost vs benefits to see if it is really worth it.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Oct 3, 2014 14:47:51 GMT -5
I don't think school choice is a good thing for the society, but I do think it is good for the individual child. If I was assigned a crappy school and had the option to send DD to a better school, I totally would schlep her all the way across town. And so would all the other involved parents. In this way the assigned school loses the kids and parents who would have made the school better. The assigned school is left with the kids who couldn't get in anywhere else or whose parents aren't pushing them(generalization of course). I went to some pretty crappy inner city schools, but it was before the internet. Parents didn't have all the information they have now to know just how crappy the schools were. My mom was uninvolved, but I was often in classes with kids who had parents that were really motivating their kids to do well. It provided a bit of peer pressure to do well. Now those good parents would pull their children out of that school, either for open enrolment, homeschooling, or just moving to the best they can afford. I'm not any different. DD is enrolled at the best school in the area, because we can afford to live in that area. I have no solution, but it seems the difference in education between the middle class and the poor is just expanding. I could see worse for the school, but probably better for the neighborhood. Now I don't have to move if I want my kid to go to a better school. So there isn't an exodus of middle class parents simply because the local schools are failing. Also it is going to create less of a price jump in the good school districts so certain neighborhoods aren't going to be extremely overpriced. it seems like it would create more of a gap if you have to buy into a very expensive neighborhood just for the school district.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2014 14:48:03 GMT -5
well he's graduated at this point....I can't imagine what that would have cost. up to 10 trips a week and I'm sure on my days off I would have still been paying someone because I doubt anyone would want a job that's 4 days this week, 2 days next week and so on. staying in his home school worked out better, but I was replying to MPL's question about why someone wouldn't switch schools. it's not as easy as enrolling them in the school. I know. I was just pointing out there are options beyond a parent driving. I think if it is important enough there are ways to make it work. Although at some point you have to weigh the cost vs benefits to see if it is really worth it. and at that time I was making about $60K less than I am now and DD was going to be starting college at the same time....now if the school he was going to was absolutely awful I would have done something...I actually looked at all girls boarding schools for DD in case her high school didn't get approved as the 3rd IB school in the county and she didn't get into the other school in the lottery....luckily they got it. while my kids' high school has its bad parts (my kids are a serious minority) they have a lot of fantastic programs - IB, Army ROTC, Homeland Security signature program and some other signature program. we have 12 high schools in the county and theirs in probably in the middle.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2014 14:51:47 GMT -5
I'm almost grateful to not have all the choices of a big city. That would drive me bonkers...but I hate decisions and am always second guessing myself. I've been hemming and hawing about the TWO choices I have for high school here. One public. One private.
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whoami
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Post by whoami on Oct 3, 2014 15:13:43 GMT -5
well he's graduated at this point....I can't imagine what that would have cost. up to 10 trips a week and I'm sure on my days off I would have still been paying someone because I doubt anyone would want a job that's 4 days this week, 2 days next week and so on. staying in his home school worked out better, but I was replying to MPL's question about why someone wouldn't switch schools. it's not as easy as enrolling them in the school. I know. I was just pointing out there are options beyond a parent driving. I think if it is important enough there are ways to make it work. Although at some point you have to weigh the cost vs benefits to see if it is really worth it. More parent drive kids to school in my district than take the bus.....which parents have to pay for. I live in an excellent district with lots of wealthy involved parents. We have school choice, which is more about sports teams than academics. We are finally opening a technology school, where kids who are not college bound can go to learn trades. Its one of the few school bonds Ive supported. Im sick to death of sports stadium bonds and all that crap that only benefits a very small percentage of the district at astronomical costs.
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tractor
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Post by tractor on Oct 3, 2014 18:29:57 GMT -5
I'm almost grateful to not have all the choices of a big city. That would drive me bonkers...but I hate decisions and am always second guessing myself. I've been hemming and hawing about the TWO choices I have for high school here. One public. One private. I agree, we don't have a private high school option, only public and charter school. As far as I am concerned, they are both the same. Fewer choices do have their advantage.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2014 18:44:24 GMT -5
My kids are generally older than a lot of my neighbors' kids. We live in what used to be considered an EXCELLENT school district. They started what you seem to call "Open Enrollment" in MS about 5 years ago. The kids from other, nearby "less good" schools all applied, and ALL of my close neighbors started sending their kids to private schools.
I don't know which came first, the chicken or the egg. Did the places in the local MS all suddenly open up? I'm guessing not, I think a lot of people heard "open enrollment" and opted to put their kids in private schools instead. That freed up places for the kids from the other catchment areas. I'm guessing that if more neighborhood kids had stayed in the local public school system, they probably would have more or less filled it up, and their parents wouldn't now be bitching about "having" to pay expensive property taxes AND send their kids to private schools.
(Two of my kids went to the local MS, but two didn't, because they went to the International Lycee instead. It's not a private school, it's a public school, although the American (or English, or German, or Spanish, etc) part of their education is "private".)
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Oct 4, 2014 10:34:45 GMT -5
While I agree with Dark's premise, it's actually more advantageous to go to a school with low performers if you want your child to go to a good University. Because while a good University may accept more students from a Type A test killer school, the competition is extremely tough to get into the top 5% of a Type A school. However, it would be a breeze to be a the top 5% of a disadvantaged school. So, for me, I would prefer if my kid went to a low performing school since it would be easier to get accepted to a Good University. HOWEVER, it's the kids at the low performing schools that I don't want my kids to hang with. I prefer my kids to hang with other kids who want to be achievers and good citizens. Ironic. college admissions look at the performance of the high school the applicant is from so they may take all of the applicants from top performing school A, even if one applicant was in the bottom of their class and none from bottom performing school B even if the applicant was in the top 10. Most colleges on the East coast use something called Naviance. It tracks everything the students do and take during HS and transmits it as a more encompassing transcript. But then it goes even farther. They keep a data base at the college to see what students from school A with these exact classes and GPA's and SAT scores ect do at their classes and in what majors ect. They actually have detailed calculations that tell them what GPA and courses ect a student needs from HS A to be successful at their school. It is really neat to use their system, which most of the HS's her do use, because they take every bit of info and put your kids info in HS and put it in a scatterplot along with every other kids that has ever applied to that college from your HS and showing how your kid stacks up against those other students. It also is color coded so you can see which kids who applied got what result. So when DD was hip deep in college search stuff I checked out the naviance college tracker for her on every one. It told me immediately which schools were easy for her to get into and which were never going to happen. it was born out when my DD got accepted to two schools that friends of hers in another town didn't even though their GPA and SAT was significantly higher than hers. ETA I will say though that while it is really neat it is also incredibly creepy!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2014 11:02:08 GMT -5
college admissions look at the performance of the high school the applicant is from so they may take all of the applicants from top performing school A, even if one applicant was in the bottom of their class and none from bottom performing school B even if the applicant was in the top 10. Most colleges on the East coast use something called Naviance. It tracks everything the students do and take during HS and transmits it as a more encompassing transcript. But then it goes even farther. They keep a data base at the college to see what students from school A with these exact classes and GPA's and SAT scores ect do at their classes and in what majors ect. They actually have detailed calculations that tell them what GPA and courses ect a student needs from HS A to be successful at their school. It is really neat to use their system, which most of the HS's her do use, because they take every bit of info and put your kids info in HS and put it in a scatterplot along with every other kids that has ever applied to that college from your HS and showing how your kid stacks up against those other students. It also is color coded so you can see which kids who applied got what result. So when DD was hip deep in college search stuff I checked out the naviance college tracker for her on every one. It told me immediately which schools were easy for her to get into and which were never going to happen. it was born out when my DD got accepted to two schools that friends of hers in another town didn't even though their GPA and SAT was significantly higher than hers. ETA I will say though that while it is really neat it is also incredibly creepy! my kids' high school uses naviance but for DD I didn't look at it at all since I figured as an IB diploma candidate she would get in most everywhere (and she was accepted to all she applied to) and DS1 wasn't going to be applying to 4 year schools.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Oct 4, 2014 11:02:58 GMT -5
We have school of choice here & I really like it. It allows any parent who cares enough to send their kid to a good school despite where they live. I was looking it up because of the thread yesterday, but I live 5 houses down from the 51st ranked elementary school in my city. My son is attending the 2nd ranked school because his education is important to me. I feel I made a good choice & the school is excellent. I actually know more parents opting into other schools or sending their kids to charter schools than those that just go to neighborhood schools. But, I will admit that is mostly due to the type of people that I associate with, because I think the norm is still to just go to the neighborhood school because it is easier. So, why would anyone send to the worst school in the city if they could have their choice of any of them? Proximity? Proximity, apathy, lack of understanding of the process (especially true of recent immigrants). Here, schools are open enrollment and we have charter schools, but we also have an assigned district school. Our district school is required to take and keep our kids - no matter their achievement, behavior or needs. so, in theory, our district school should be full of hoodlums and kids who have significant learning disabilities. But, they actually do a pretty good job with families like us. They have a whole program for those kids who have disabilities and the hoodlums, but are still able to educate my kid is an excellent way. I know there are some people who would like to leave the school, but can't because of behavior or achievement - but those are the parents that also think it is the school's fault that their kid misbehaves. Now - that is our middle school. Our high school is a different ball of wax. The districts for high school are unrelated to the districts of middle school. So, 70% of the district kids at our middle school will go up to a high performing district high school a few miles north, while the other 30% (us included) are in the problem high school a few miles to the south. After going around the district and little by little creating magnets in each of the schools, they are finally getting to our school. Great campus, attractive theory, but in reality - I'm nervous about the whole school. Pregnancy, metal detectors, low test scores. All of the people who could improve the reputation of the school have bailed out. They have a long way to go. And we have been researching options since I was pregnant.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2014 14:53:06 GMT -5
Some of this will change with standardized subject level testing.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Oct 4, 2014 16:27:03 GMT -5
Will it? It seem like everyone says that the next set of standardized tests will be so different from the last set of standardized tests. Long-time teachers around here have the "Same sh$t, different test" attitude.
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teen persuasion
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Post by teen persuasion on Oct 4, 2014 19:02:20 GMT -5
The SAT is long established, so we've come to trust it, more or less. Nationwide assessment tests would be added onto the list of assessment tests the kids are already taking. We are beyond the point of test fatigue with all of the assessment tests they have added in the last few years, and they are cutting into instruction time.
New tests take a while to become reliably standard. Every time they tweak the SAT, it takes a while before the results are comparable. Same thing has happened with NY's Regents tests - they change a math test, and results are terrible for a few years, and they redo the test again, rinse & repeat. Did all of the students really lose all math ability, or is the test flawed, or did the changes to curriculum change the way it was taught, for the worse.
And of course, if you don't expect the new nationwide stuff to persist long, you don't want to throw out all of your state test systems, so both coexist.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2014 19:54:03 GMT -5
But skills based tests should be different.
Right now PA is working on the first round. All that is required for 2017 graduation is Algebra I, Biology and Literature.
So far son has taken two. He passed Biology with proficient and Algebra 1 as Advanced. Those scores will be comparable to ANY kid in the state, no matter the quality of school, no matter if they are homeschooled. Etc.
I'd actually like if we had skill based tests nation wide.
I'm actually not for elementary testing. I'd think general math and reading setc around 5-6th grade. But SKILL based tests at he high school level, administered at end of course, assessing prerequisites for further education, workforce or college... I think that will actually start us on the path towards a more flexible education system in general.
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teen persuasion
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Post by teen persuasion on Oct 4, 2014 22:49:23 GMT -5
But skills based tests should be different. Right now PA is working on the first round. All that is required for 2017 graduation is Algebra I, Biology and Literature. So far son has taken two. He passed Biology with proficient and Algebra 1 as Advanced. Those scores will be comparable to ANY kid in the state, no matter the quality of school, no matter if they are homeschooled. Etc. I'd actually like if we had skill based tests nation wide. I'm actually not for elementary testing. I'd think general math and reading setc around 5-6th grade. But SKILL based tests at he high school level, administered at end of course, assessing prerequisites for further education, workforce or college... I think that will actually start us on the path towards a more flexible education system in general. This is what NY Regents are. At the end of Algebra, you take the Regents for Regents credit. Same for Trig, Geometry, Bio, Chem, Physics, Latin I, II, III, English, Global, etc. Some, like the English and Social Studies ones were only taken once in HS, usually Jr year, while the sciences, math, and language ones were at each level. They've been messing around with the tests for the last ten years or so, and it has been a disaster. For a while they switched to a Math A and Math B test taken 18 months apart, but they didn't really correspond to the math classes, so kids failed them left and right, even though their local test scores were passing. So they temporarily lowered passing to 55! They insisted all students must get a Regents diploma (local was always an option before), which required a minimum number of Regents course credits, and they keep lengthening the list of credits needed, while apparently cutting the number of tests offered due to budget problems. We can't get the Algebra I test together in time for June Regents, so we'll just cancel it this year. And what - make all the freshman take it a year later, after they've moved on? There is also an Advanced Regents diploma, and an AR with Honors. More Regents and higher marks. I know I must have taken at least 11 Regents in HS.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Oct 5, 2014 9:04:38 GMT -5
The SAT is long established, so we've come to trust it, more or less. Nationwide assessment tests would be added onto the list of assessment tests the kids are already taking. We are beyond the point of test fatigue with all of the assessment tests they have added in the last few years, and they are cutting into instruction time. New tests take a while to become reliably standard. Every time they tweak the SAT, it takes a while before the results are comparable. Same thing has happened with NY's Regents tests - they change a math test, and results are terrible for a few years, and they redo the test again, rinse & repeat. Did all of the students really lose all math ability, or is the test flawed, or did the changes to curriculum change the way it was taught, for the worse. And of course, if you don't expect the new nationwide stuff to persist long, you don't want to throw out all of your state test systems, so both coexist. Pssst, the same person is in charge of the SAT and AP classes who designed the Common Core.
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zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,912
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 5, 2014 9:17:09 GMT -5
Really? They have to be older than dirt.
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973beachbum
Senior Associate
Politics Admin
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 16:12:13 GMT -5
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Post by 973beachbum on Oct 5, 2014 9:34:22 GMT -5
He is only 43. I think the key here is the states that "opt out" may be in for bigger long term trouble since the SAT is supposed to move to resembling the common core even more.
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