swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 2, 2011 16:06:24 GMT -5
Actually, the level of crime charge often is dependent on the mental state of the defendant, and the mental state is "proven" based on the actions and words of the defendant.
For example, man shoots man. Murder or Criminally Negligent Homicide? Man points gun at man, says, I'm gonna kill you, and then shoots him. All evidence points to intent. Man is hunting, shoots gun at what he thinks is a deer. He realizes he shot his hunting buddy. No intent to harm, but you don't take a shot at a deer unless you have a clear view of the target. Negligence.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 2, 2011 16:08:11 GMT -5
The definition of a hate crime is as follows: "A hate crime, also known as a bias crime, is a criminal offense committed against a person, property, or society that is motivated, in whole or in part, by the offender’s bias against a race, religion, disability, sexual orientation, or ethnicity/national origin."Seems to me the deceased soldier was gay. That fits the definition of a hate crime.The WBC's intent was to foist hate and intimidation on the mourning and grieving family. Nothing is more humorous then the left wing mincing words. No crime was committed. They held a legal protest.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Mar 2, 2011 16:10:40 GMT -5
No crime was committed. They held a legal protest.
Likewise, in Tenn's post, no crime was committed either.
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Mar 2, 2011 16:22:33 GMT -5
I'm trying to find the case that you guys are talking about (the flag burning) and can find no instance where people who burned a flag were charged with a criminal offense. Anyone have a link?
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 2, 2011 16:24:01 GMT -5
I'm trying to find the case that you guys are talking about (the flag burning) and can find no instance where people who burned a flag were charged with a criminal offense. Anyone have a link? It could be an arson or criminal mischief charge if they burned someone else's flag...........
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Mar 2, 2011 16:24:02 GMT -5
OH wait.. found it.. and he was arrested for destruction of property or vandalism (some such).. he wasn't burning his OWN gay pride flag, but the one owned by the LGBT community center.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Mar 2, 2011 16:26:45 GMT -5
Actually, the level of crime charge often is dependent on the mental state of the defendant, and the mental state is "proven" based on the actions and words of the defendant. For example, man shoots man. Murder or Criminally Negligent Homicide? Man points gun at man, says, I'm gonna kill you, and then shoots him. All evidence points to intent. Man is hunting, shoots gun at what he thinks is a deer. He realizes he shot his hunting buddy. No intent to harm, but you don't take a shot at a deer unless you have a clear view of the target. Negligence. Then why is it okay for hate crimes to make the same crime with the same intent yet consider one worse because of what the person thought of the other? If I say I hate someone and then kill them why is it any worse if i say I hate someone and they are gay or whatever? They aren't any less dead. The law sure isn't going to make me not hate them. It just is another stupid law on the books to make someone feel better.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 2, 2011 16:30:09 GMT -5
"It just is another stupid law on the books to make someone feel better"
Bingo.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 2, 2011 16:50:04 GMT -5
I believe there was a south park episode about this issue.
The only argument I could see is that the purpose of a hate crime may be to instill fear into an entire group of people, so the crime actually had a deeper purpose than just wanting that person dead. It is more like terrorism in that way.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Mar 2, 2011 17:32:03 GMT -5
It's a bitch when to do the right thing , one has to rule in favor of such scum.... I am so in favor of states passing consttutional accepted laws that can keep such groupe so far away from the proceedings and out of the way, of possible legally allow proper authorities to pick the site to demonstrate, a alley a 1/4 mile away facing nothing of importance, and let them demonstrate away
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 2, 2011 17:40:42 GMT -5
A total media blackout would also be very helpful in not spreading their message of hate.
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fairlycrazy23
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Post by fairlycrazy23 on Mar 2, 2011 18:07:06 GMT -5
A total media blackout would also be very helpful in not spreading their message of hate. Yes we should ignore them, they are media hogs, they just want the attention. And the soldier in question was not gay, there logic is the US supports homosexuality so they protest soldiers who have died fighting for the United States. And I think they flat out said they where going to protest that poor little girl in AZ just for publicity.
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ugonow
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Post by ugonow on Mar 2, 2011 18:07:18 GMT -5
According to what I read,the persons brought the flag to the LBGT. -----<<<<<According to DNAinfo, the center’s surveillance cameras captured an image of the perpetrator, but they await police permission to release it over fear of compromising the investigation, which is being handled by NYPD’s hate-crimes unit. The incident happened at 12:30 A.M.
Center spokesman Jeffrey Klein said the flag “didn’t belong to the center and must have been carried there by the perpetrator. He said the flag was discovered around 8 A.M. Wednesday, taped to a poster announcing upcoming events at the center. Police responded immediately, Klein said,” according to DNAinfo.
In a joint statement Thursday, many of New York City’s out elected officials denounced the flag burning.
“The act of hate demonstrated outside the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Community Center in the Village is unacceptable,” said Council Speaker Christine C. Quinn. “I was angered and deeply disturbed when I heard someone would go to such great lengths to burn a rainbow flag and pin it to the outside of the building. The Center has long been a safe space for LGBT people and will continue to serve New Yorkers who need specific health and social resources. We will continue to combat hate through education to ensure spaces like the Center stay safe. We will continue to speak out against hate and to ensure spaces like the Center stay safe. We will continue to speak out against hate and to ensure spaces like the Center stay safe. Our community will continue to stand up against all acts of hate.”
Anyone with information about the flag burning is urged to contact the NYPD tips line at 800-577-TIPS.>>>>
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pappyjohn99
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Post by pappyjohn99 on Mar 3, 2011 2:15:08 GMT -5
I did see this morning a court ruled in a kids favor that wore a be happy don't be gat t shirt to school on gay tolorance day. IMO,opinions can be expressed.
But California schools send people home for wearing American flag t-shirts on Chino de Mayo
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Mar 3, 2011 2:39:53 GMT -5
I was thinking about this ruling. I understand the amendment for free speech , how important it is. In a persons life , there are extremes of joy and sadness. Joy might be the birth of a child all healthy and well. Sadness is the burial of a loved one, the final time to honor who they were, their life accomplishments , even their failures among family and friends in many cases for the last time. A time to start closure for those who are still here. There is always the situation that arises at these times that might make it a bit harder, usually things that are unavoidable. The weather for one, huge rainy conditions, very cold and blustery that take away from the moment but can't be helped. Passing traffic, building going on. All things that are just part of being . For a family to also be subjected to personal attacks on their loved ones, who are unable any longer to defend themselves against these attacks and insults to their very being their life , what it stood for at such a moment to me is something they shouldn't have to endure. Yes they are gone but their families are a part of them and the same holds true for them too. There is also the potential harm that a family or friend may cause themselves in losing control and taking action against those who are doing these attacks on the memory of th diseased. Similar to crying fire in a building when there is none, as a joke, it would be funny but the chance of injury or worse makes it not a laughing matter, The court could have done a better job on this one , even though it was almost a unanimous decision, to me all it means is that all but one of the justices got it wrong.
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Mar 3, 2011 2:45:47 GMT -5
So they pinned a burning object to a building? That could be the crime we're talking about
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Mar 3, 2011 8:49:31 GMT -5
What law would that be....and wouldn't it be a bit hard to prove?Workplace harrassment laws could be an example of this. That has nothing to do with what I am thinking. I think laws regulating thought would be pretty hard to enforce.
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Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on Mar 3, 2011 9:37:20 GMT -5
Well, since it is free speech, distasteful though it may be, then those who disagree with the Westboro folks should be free to demonstrate at their weekly services!
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Mar 3, 2011 9:53:01 GMT -5
Well, since it is free speech, distasteful though it may be, then those who disagree with the Westboro folks should be free to demonstrate at their weekly services! That was my suggestion a couple years back but I'm sure most would rather bitch and moan about WBC rather than actually get off the couch and beat them at their own game. All of the outrage and attention we give these WBC losers means they're winning.
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Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on Mar 3, 2011 9:54:56 GMT -5
FY, only a matter of time til some groups give it a try.
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Mar 3, 2011 10:07:49 GMT -5
FY, only a matter of time til some groups give it a try. My own sis had a post on her facebook about the "horrible decision" of the SCOTUS (and a dozen replies from her friends saying the same thing) and my reply to her was the same as here. Great to hear the US Constitution is not totally dead. I know she's going to argue with me but I don't really care. Someone needs to stir the pot and people to think logically with their heads and not their (bleeding) hearts. As I said, marginalize these people and they'll fade away into nothing. They're attention hounds and we're giving them more than they could have ever hoped for.
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Mar 3, 2011 10:15:34 GMT -5
Every liberal on my fb has applauded the decision... if they hadn't they woulda gotten an ass whoopin' a la Loopy. They could not show that this was speech regarding a private issue because they don't target individuals (just because they're at an individuals funeral does not make them a target) they target the US and the lgbt community as wholes.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 3, 2011 10:16:37 GMT -5
FY, only a matter of time til some groups give it a try. My own sis had a post on her facebook about the "horrible decision" of the SCOTUS (and a dozen replies from her friends saying the same thing) and my reply to her was the same as here. Great to hear the US Constitution is not totally dead. I know she's going to argue with me but I don't really care. Someone needs to stir the pot and people to think logically with their heads and not their (bleeding) hearts. As I said, marginalize these people and they'll fade away into nothing. They're attention hounds and we're giving them more than they could have ever hoped for.How many people are able to force the United States Supreme Court to take up their cause! Sad that these people are continually given what they want.
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Mar 3, 2011 10:30:17 GMT -5
Every liberal on my fb has applauded the decision... You'd think anybody that still believe in upholding the US Constitution would applaud this decision. I know quite a few older veterans at the VFW and they tend to support the rights of WBC members to be assholes. One of our past commanders had said that doing otherwise would be akin to pissing on the graves of all the brave men that died to secure these rights.
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Mar 3, 2011 10:33:58 GMT -5
Every liberal on my fb has applauded the decision... You'd think anybody that still believe in upholding the US Constitution would applaud this decision. I know quite a few older veterans at the VFW and they tend to support the rights of WBC members to be assholes. One of our past commanders had said that doing otherwise would be akin to pissing on the graves of all the brave men that died to secure these rights. Exactly. Upholding the constitution, believe it or not, is not only the purview of conservatives.
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Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on Mar 3, 2011 11:04:03 GMT -5
We had a military funeral several months ago. So many locals came out to shield the family, that the wackos couldn't get within a mile of the place. Stupid tv station found them on the highway and gave them publicity. The SCOTUS decision was proper . It is the philosophy of the Westies that is wrong.
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Mar 3, 2011 11:06:55 GMT -5
Upholding the constitution, believe it or not, is not only the purview of conservatives. YOU LIE!!
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Post by marjar on Mar 3, 2011 11:08:32 GMT -5
Every liberal on my fb has applauded the decision... I know quite a few older veterans at the VFW and they tend to support the rights of WBC members to be assholes. One of our past commanders had said that doing otherwise would be akin to pissing on the graves of all the brave men that died to secure these rights. Exactly!
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Post by privateinvestor on Mar 3, 2011 11:43:27 GMT -5
High court rules for military funeral protesters
Yea but individuals states are looking into these so called Christian Protesters to pass their own state laws so that families who want to bury their dead soldiers don't have to be subjected to their taunts and outrageousness..
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Mar 3, 2011 11:51:35 GMT -5
"The court could have done a better job on this one , even though it was almost a unanimous decision, to me all it means is that all but one of the justices got it wrong."
I have to disagree. I'm sure most decent people would agree that what these people are doing is deplorable and extremely insensative. However I'm pleased that the justices upheld the constitution and the fundamental right to free speech. The right to free speech is fundamental to our society and it's cases like this that are challenging. We can't just decide to have free speech when it's easy or we like what others have to say.
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