pay disparity between men & women

[michelyn8]

I've seen this brought up several times the last few years and I even remember a thread discussing it on the old YM. Either I'm missing it or they aren't saying, but just how do they get to this conclusion? If they are looking at "lifetime" salaries for the same job, then it makes sense to me that we may make less since we are more likely to have family obligations that can affect how many years we work compared to a man who may not choose to take advantage of the paternity benefits companies are now allowing.

I've felt underpaid for the job I was doing (admin work) but that is a traditionally low paying, mostly female category. And I've done what was necessary to fix that at the time. But I've never felt underpaid soley because I was a female.

[achelois]

One place I applied tried to hire me at20% less than the other employees in the dept--who happened to be all men--for the same job and responsibilities. This was in 1996.


Since it was more than my then-current employer paid I would not have known about the discrepancy, If one of the guys had not pulled me aside and given me a heads-up.

Of couse, I then held out and got the higher pay.

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

Unless there are very special circumstances surrounding bringing someone on board to a company's staff, a new hire will usually be brought in at the low end of a job categories pay scale.

For example, if a pay range for a particular position is $45,000 to $65,000, new hires will be brought in on the low end of that range. Existing employees will be making much more, many in the high $50Ks to $60K.

[Small Biz Owner]

None here. Pay rate difference does depend on experience and expertise, regardless of gender.

[emma1420]

Mar 2, 2011 5:59:56 GMT -5 Lady Gaga Gaga Snerd said:

I think women have to take some responsibility for being underpaid. Often times women are underpaid simply because they do not ask for more in the first place. Men seem to be more on the ball as far as negotiating more for themselves versus women who just accept what is offered and don't realize they can negotiate. NOT ALL BUT SOME, so spare me the flames, just making a point.
As for me, I don't make as much as I could be making. I choose to downsize my career to raise my 3 kids. That was my choice and I am happy with it.

In general, I think it's more difficult for women to negotiate for salary increases. They are perceived as a agressive and difficult to get along with, while the exact same behavior from a man would be considered assertative and evidence of being a go-getter. There have been several studies that point to this kind of perception, and I know that I've experienced it myself. I am sure that there are woman who short change themselves because they don't negotiate. But, at the same time there are many women who try to negotiate who are less successful in the work place due to the perceptions that many employers have about male and a female workers.

There is also the perception, at least in some places, that men are still the breadwinners. I've worked for more than one organization where a man's starting salary will be higher than a woman's despite having fewer qualifications and experience. The rationale behind those decisions I don't understand, but I know even now in 2011 that it still happens. And I have friends who have been passed over for promotions and advancement activities because they are mothers. And their bosses were trying to keep their stress level down and be "nice".

Yes, women tend to work in industries that pay less, but wage disparity between men and women still exists even for the same position and job.

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

In general, I think it's more difficult for women to negotiate for salary increases. They are perceived as a agressive and difficult to get along with, while the exact same behavior from a man would be considered asserative and evidence of being a go-getter.

I've never read a more sexist post on this site or the old YM message forum.

[emma1420]

Mar 2, 2011 9:43:50 GMT -5 Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ said:

In general, I think it's more difficult for women to negotiate for salary increases. They are perceived as a agressive and difficult to get along with, while the exact same behavior from a man would be considered asserative and evidence of being a go-getter.

I've never read a more sexist post on this site or the old YM message forum.

Interesting. I base that comment both on personal experience and research. For example, guwli.georgetown.edu/Negotiation%20Assertiveness.pdf

Perhaps it is a sexist comment, but sadly in my own experience and clearly in other women's lives it's reality.

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

Interesting. I base that comment both on personal experience and research. For example, guwli.georgetown.edu/Negotiation%20Assertiveness.pdf
Perhaps it is a sexist comment, but sadly in my own experience and clearly in other women's lives it's reality.

Thusly, if women are incapable of being good negotiators in the work place, perhaps they should not be hired for certain high paying jobs because they will be unable to successfully negotiate a contract with a prospective client.

I completely reject that study.

On a side note, women seem perfectly capable of negotiating highly unbalanced divorced settlements. But I digress.

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

Yup, Georgetown University has credibility.

In 2000, several GU Law students engaged in an illegal pump and financial market price manipulation. The school refused to expell the three students.

www.ricedelman.com/cs/pressroom/pressroom_detail?pressrelease.id=81&titleParam=Ric+Edelman+Resigns+from+G.U.+Faculty+in+Protest

(Click link for full story)

Ric Edelman Resigns from G.U. Faculty in Protest
For Immediate Release
February 15, 2001

Washington, D.C., February 15, 2001 Prominent financial planner Ric Edelman, a nine-year faculty member of Georgetown University, has resigned his teaching position at the school to protest the University's failure to disclose whether three G.U. law students have been disciplined or expelled. The three, charged by the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission with participating in an illegal stock price manipulation scheme, signed a consent decree last March, but the university has refused to announce whether the three would be permitted to graduate with law degrees this Spring.

In a letter to the University, Edelman said, "I am concerned about this matter because it pertains to the investment field, which is the subject I teach at the University. My concern is this: if the Law Center is willing to grant a law degree to students who are dishonest, the University might also be willing to have me teach other dishonest students the skills they need to commit other illegal acts. I am not willing to be such a participant."

According to press reports, the students settled the civil charges last March without denying or admitting wrongdoing. In a statement released at the time, the University's Law Center said the students would face "public humiliation and future scrutiny by bar admissions committees" and that the "incident distresses our entire community." However, the Center did not say that the students would face disciplinary action from the school.

[cronewitch]

Some is discrimination but some isn't. Women tend to choose traditional female jobs that have traditionally been low paid. Men in my generation were expected to support a family, women's pay was the second income. Yet now many women are choosing to do traditional men's jobs and the pay scale for the entire profession goes down. Accounting and Law were men's professions when I was a kid now about half are women and the pay seems to have decreased.

Women also tend to aim lower in general becoming the second tier even if it is a pretty high job. Where a man might become a heart specialist doctor the women might choose general practice or the man might become orthodontist when the women might choose dentist. Women are also more likely to look for part time or basic 40 hour jobs than men are since they are more often primary caregivers.

Women are still primary caregivers to children, elderly and spouses since we marry older men and live longer. Young women take maternity leaves then often call in sick for sick children at home more than the fathers. Some of that is choice women choose to take less high pressure jobs, support the husband's career by taking on most child care and house hold duties.

I for example was a CPA but really didn't want that job, so I am a happy bookkeeper in a low stress job that pays less money. I don't ask for raises and just keep on keeping on. I like to get along with people more than compete for promotions. I could be promoted to CFO but I don't want the job, I like my comfy little job.

[HoneyBBQ]

"I've never read a more sexist post on this site or the old YM message forum. "

SF - what about NPR? I just listened to this discussion a few weeks ago. Women who "act" like men are seen as hostile and unfriendly.

www.npr.org/2011/02/14/133599768/ask-for-a-raise-most-women-hesitate

[Tiny]

The thing is "traditional female jobs" weren't always traditionally female - they were jobs filled by men. When women started taking those jobs is when the pay stagnated (I wouldn't say dropped) and the jobs became "female jobs".

Women were also often "pushed" towards traditional female jobs. Back in the late 70s/early 80s when I was in HS/college it was often suggested to me that I should choose to be a teacher, a nurse, or maybe a secretary. Which horrified me... I didn't want to be any of those things. Thankfully computers were becoming a 'big thing' and I was born with a brain wired to be a programmer (I suspect I could have gone the engineering route if only someone would have told me about it!!) FWIW my family is "older" my mom was in her 60s by that time... needless to say my family was "horrified" that I was going to college for something totally NOT traditional. My mom use to tell people I was gonna do "data entry" which sounded more like clerical work - not sure if she just didn't understand or if she was embarrassed that I was going to school with the boys.
That said, having spent alot of my early career years being one of the boys - I can say that only in the last 5 to 10 years have I seen women actively negotiate salary and/or ask for raises. Back in the 80s and early 90s it would have been seen as aggressive and unbecoming. I know this because I lived it.
I live/work in a Big City for an international company so my opinion my be very skewed but I'd say that in recent years the divide between men and women in professional positions has decreased. Most of the teams/projects I work on are integrated with very skilled men and women. The higher ups/bosses/project leaders are no longer all men. I wouldn't say it's 50/50 yet maybe more like 60 men/40 women but it's much better than it use to be. I work with technology so it often seems that being knowledgeable is more important than gender. I suspect that might not be the same in other fields.

[whoisjohngalt]

How tired I am of all those "women are such victims" notions. I wonder if it will ever end.....

Lena

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

SF - what about NPR? I just listened to this discussion a few weeks ago. Women who "act" like men are seen as hostile and unfriendly.

I'd think they would be pretty hot.

I pointed out earlier that women seem very capable of negotiating horrendously one sided divorce settlements.

But I digress.

[zibazinski]

You do and if you want to be sexist, you could say that their MALE lawyers of their female lawyers who act like men negotiated it for them.

[Tiny]

I also think that in the past women weren't taught how to negotiate/ask for a raise. It took alot of listening to my oldest sib (works in a human resource hiring kind of job) to figure out that what's offered to a new employee isn't necessarily the end all and be all. You can ask for a higher salary when offered a job, you can ask for other benefits, you just have to be confident and do it. Of course, right now in the midst of a raging recession this might not be the best advice... but way back when, when I changed jobs I asked for more pay (didn't get it up front but got it in writing that after 6 months if everything was copasetic I'd get a 5K increase in pay), I asked to be enrolled in the 401(k) immediately - back then there was anywhere from a 1 year to 2 year wait... I got it in writing that I'd get enrolled after 6 months. I also needed tuition re-imbursement for 2 more quarters to finish my degree so I asked for that as well. Since my schooling would be done around the 6 month mark - I got that also provided I got the required gradepoint.
When 6 months was up, I got everything I asked for. If I hadn't said or asked for anything I would have been earning 5K less, had to pay 2500 out of pocket for my classes and I wouldn't have been able to contribute to the 401(k) for 1 year.
FWIW: I certainly hope my co-workers are earning more than I am - they have more skills and do more work than I do. I like my job. I'm good at it. I get it done in 40 hours a week (unlike my co-workers who work more hours). I don't have a blackberry or a connection to work at home (unlike my coworkers who are 'on call' 24/7) and I often make my boss look good by keeping him filled in on what's going on in my area(so he's rarely hit with 'surprise' from someone higher up the food chain) and by handling problems quickly and correctly the first time so by the time he hears about something it's already fixed OR theres a plan being worked to fix it.

[8 Bit WWBG]

You can have equal rights in the boardroom when we have equal rights in the bedroom.

[Tiny]

I pointed out earlier that women seem very capable of negotiating horrendously one sided divorce settlements
But is her lawyer a man or a woman?? Maybe I misunderstand what you are saying...

[shanendoah]

SF: Yes, its sexist. Doesn't stop it from being true. The world, whether we like it or not, is still sexist. Not to the extent it used to be, but if we start denying that there are any problems, it will not get better. It will get worse.
Yes, it is a problem that women don't negotiate. And yes, that falls partly on the women. There are entire books about this, including "Women Don't Ask". But I can not place all the blame on women because there are societal pressures that we are often succumbing to. We are taught that good girls take what they are given and don't ask for more, where as boys are expected to always ask for more.
When women do ask, they are often seen as agressive bitches whose hostile attitudes will not work well in a team environment. A man who does the same thing is seen as a leader and go getter who will make the entire team better.
There is a famous (at least among MBA students) Harvard case study about a case study. Harvard MBA students were all given the same case study, except that for half the students, it was about a consultant named Sam, and for half the students, it was about Samantha. Other than first name/pronouns, everything else in the study was identicle. After reading and discussing the case study in groups, the people who read about Sam thought he was a fabulous employee, an asset to the team who should be hired by the company full time. The students who read about Samantha agreed that she got the job done, but saw her as too agressive, someone who would alienate other team members if she were hired by the company, and recommended that she not be considered for a full time position. This result was the same among both male and female students who read the case study. Same actions, same results, completely different perceptions of the work done, based solely on gender. (If I remember correctly, the study is from the early 90s. Unfortunately, its not something that is generally available on the web, so I can not link to it directly.)

michelyn: These reports do take into account lifetime earnings, but not in the sense that you are thinking. They are based on initial salaries offered to people of similar educational background and experience who are hired at similar companies (or even the same companies) in comparable jobs. In general, women are hired in at a lower salary. Some of the discrepency is certainly negotiation, but some of it is also hiring managers offering women less (and this may not be sexist as much as practicle - if you know a woman is likely to settle for less, or not negotiate, then why not offer less and keep some extra room in your budget). However, once people start at different salaries, even if they get the same percentage bonus year after year, and no one takes time off for family reasons, men make more, and the gap goes up year after year. For example:
Starting salary: $50,000
3% raise: $51,500
3% raise: $53,045

Starting Salary: $55,000
3% raise: $56,650
3% raise: $58,349.50

So what started out as a $5k discrepency is up to a $5.3k discrepency after only 2 years. Project that out over 40+ years of working and it becomes a major salary gap.

It is certainly getting better. And many young women just no graduating, really do expect to do as well as their male peers. I certainly hope they do.
I am one of the lucky ones. I work in a female dominated field (health care) that still pays really well. Even so, among the upper levels of management, we have very few women.

And the sexism works both ways. FMLA gives men the right to take time off to care for a new born just as it does women. It even allows men to take their time off after their wife's time off ends, so that you could always have one person working. However, men are much more highly penalized in perception at the office if they take that time, or if they take time off to care for family members.
The gentleman who had my assistant's job before her, working for the manager before me, faced this issue with the manager all the time. He and his wife had twins. Both of them worked full time, so they took turns taking a day off when the kids were sick. The previous manager, even though she was a woman, would get mad at him for taking sick days for his kids. She made it very clear that she felt his wife should always be the one to do that.

[Deleted]

Mar 2, 2011 11:01:06 GMT -5 Tiny said:

My mom use to tell people I was gonna do "data entry" which sounded more like clerical work - not sure if she just didn't understand or if she was embarrassed that I was going to school with the boys.

I can just picture you hammering away at IBM cards on a keypunch machine! One actuary I know went to Renssalaer and her Mom was really clueless about why she chose that- then Mom visited the campus and saw what a massive % of the student body was male and felt better- all those prospective husbands. Maybe it was a good choice after all!

The reasons women make less are varied and complex. Some have been listed above: choosing traditional female fields, which tend to be lower-paying, slowing down or dropping out for a few years due to motherhood, the company perception that she should slow down due to motherhood, cultural programming that makes women less likely to make demands, negotiate, etc. and also the cultural programming that makes people perceive those actions negatively... and sometimes just plan prejudice. But how do you sort them all out? I'm almost certain I'm being paid less than I could be because I always took offers as accepted. But, at 58, all I can do is look forward and not backwards.

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

You can have equal rights in the boardroom when we have equal rights in the bedroom.

This probably nails the entire equality thing right on the head. Women are the epitomy of intellectual dishonesty. They want and demand equality only when it suits them.

When a company asks a prospective new hire what type of salary they are looking for, it does not take much intelligence to say what salary you are looking for.

[shanendoah]

Lena: It will end when we (as a society) stop having different standards of behavior for men and women. It starts with us teaching our daughters that they have every right to stick up for themselves, ask for what they need, etc, just like we do our sons. I really do think that as long as we keep on the path we are on, we are only a couple generations away for actual pay parity. But we have to keep on the path, we can't say "good enough" before it really is.

SF: Actually, all those studies that say women are bad at negotiating for themselves also show that women are just as good (or better) negotiators than men when negotiating for someone else. If we think we're doing it for our children, you'll get taken to the cleaners. Its also why it doesn't matter if the divorce lawyer is a man or women, because they aren't negotiating for themselves, they're negotiating for someone else. Again, its a mind set. Women have traditionally been taught to put other people first, so they're great at taking care of others. Not so great at taking care of themselves.

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

I can just picture you hammering away at IBM cards on a keypunch machine

You've just dated yourself....LOL

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

Actually, all those studies that say women are bad at negotiating for themselves also show that women are just as good (or better) negotiators than men when negotiating for someone else. If we think we're doing it for our children, you'll get taken to the cleaners. Its also why it doesn't matter if the divorce lawyer is a man or women, because they aren't negotiating for themselves, they're negotiating for someone else. Again, its a mind set. Women have traditionally been taught to put other people first, so they're great at taking care of others. Not so great at taking care of themselves.

So you've confirmed my point. Women can and will negotiate.

[shanendoah]

WWBG & SF: Please explain to me how men don't have equal rights in the bedroom? Men have just as much right to say "no" as women do. Just because you choose not to exercise that right. And, based on this current study www.slate.com/id/2286240/, young men currently have the upper hand in the bedroom, too.

[shanendoah]

SF: Yes, they can and will when its not for themselves. Women are expected to fight for their children and their husbands, and any other family members. Those are good women, loving wives/mothers/daughters, etc. Women who fight for themselves traditionally are seen as bitches. There is no difference other than perception, but the way other people perceive us is hugely important when it comes to pay in the work place.

[whoisjohngalt]

And for the record, when I was working, ALL my headhunters were men. So, it was men, not a little ol' me negotiating my salary. I did tell them what I wanted, but it was them doing all the dirty work. So, whatever compensation I got, it was all bc of men, men, men

Shanendoah,

We will never have different standards for a very simple reason that women are all over the place. They want to be treated fairly, but then want special considerations bc of A,B and C. I said it awhile back on old YM and got all kinds of stones thrown at me that many women don't know what to do with themselves at a workplace. They want to dress a certain way, but then claim that it's men's fault for looking at them. They want equal pay and responsibilites, but then want to be gone for 3-4 months at a time to have a baby or leave at 4pm to make it to Junior's oh so important soccer game. You can't have it both ways.

Women who are confident and assertive without having a chip on their shoulder do very well and I've met a few and tried to learn as much as I possibly could from them. Unfortunately, many run around having too much to prove and forget what it should be all about.

Lena

[swamp]

Mar 2, 2011 11:11:34 GMT -5 8 Bit WWBG said:

You can have equal rights in the boardroom when we have equal rights in the bedroom.

Most men do, but you just happened to have aligned yourself with the Intimacy Dictator.

[Deleted]

whoisjohngalt said:

They want equal pay and responsibilities, but then want to be gone for 3-4 months at a time to have a baby or leave at 4pm to make it to Junior's oh so important soccer game. You can't have it both ways.

While I agree with you, I had a revealing conversation with the wife of a colleague when I worked for a GE sub. She was a SAHM, having given up her career at GE because he was in a leadership-track position where they moved every 6 months or so as he was exposed to different aspects of the business. I told her how great it was that some of my male colleagues were trying to structure their work around their kids' activities. "Yes," she sighed. "But I'll feel even better when women who do that are given the same approval". So, when the guys leave at 4 for a soccer game, they're being a good father and keeping a good work/life balance. When the woman leaves for the same reason, she's on the Mommy Track. It doesn't matter that both of them are probably back on the computer for work after the kids are in bed.

But I do agree that if you insist that business travel be minimized and you won't work weekends and you must leave promptly every day to get the kid at daycare, etc., your career will suffer, and it's not discrimination.

[whoisjohngalt]

Athena,
I can see that happening. Could it be that men don't do it as often?

Lena