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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2014 21:52:59 GMT -5
I have to wonder....
If your employer handles your time worked in this way, is it legal?
If I clock out at 5:00 I am paid for 8 hours (just an example).
If I clock out at 5:07 I am paid for 8 hours.
If I clock out at 5:08 I am paid for 8.25 hours.
So, if I clock in 7 minutes early, and have to stay 7 minutes late, they round it so I am not paid for those 14 minutes - and get no overtime for those 7 minutes as well.
Didn't WalMart get sued for this?
I don't really care, because I am smart enough to check the clock before I clock in and out, but is this practice legal? It seems like it wouldn't be.
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msventoux
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Post by msventoux on Sept 24, 2014 22:09:39 GMT -5
Without looking up the specifics, I think federal law allows for rounding to the nearest tenth or quarter of an hour as long as it's done in a consistent and neutral manner that won't result in overall underpayment of employees in the long term. Each state has their own employment laws as well that would come into play.
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Apple
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Post by Apple on Sept 24, 2014 22:10:46 GMT -5
The government does it by 15 minute increments, so 5:07 would not count, but 5:08 would. I haven't seen it used much with OT, but when using leave it works that way. So if you came in at 8:07 in the morning you may get away with it a time or two, but if you came in at 8:08 they could make you put in a leave slip.
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Sept 24, 2014 22:22:21 GMT -5
I can't answer your question.
My (Fortune 500) employer also pays in 15 minute increments but the rounding occurs at 7 minutes and they also track total minutes worked. That is, if you clocked in two minutes early and clocked out five minutes late, you'd get paid for an extra 15 minutes of labor.
I don't know if what you're encountering is legal nor would I particularly trust the person that explained it to me until I received some corroboration that they have described it accurately.
Slightly OT, but if you're working six days, you're not in a good position to remember your punches or test the system. Writing stuff down helps you figure it out.
I don't know if this will help any but 10 years ago I kinda assumed that computerized time clocks had reduced this kind of yaya and uncertainty to negligible levels and I was wrong. I've since heard quite a few stories of time clock systems that record the time of punches well but have really weird, opportunistic, employer-friendly ways of translating that data into paychecks.
I can't tell you whether the law is loosely written or whether nobody complains.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2014 22:57:59 GMT -5
It's interesting.
We also have odd rules about OT. You only get it for over 40 hours in a week, not for your 6th day.
And, any OT you worked, getting to your 40 hour week, does not count.
So, if I work 10 hours in a day and get 2 hours of OT, then I am considered to have worked 8 hours that week so far.
So, even though I work 10 hours on M-TH, I am paid OT for the 8 hours, 2 hours each day over 8 hours, but I have only 32 hours towards the 40 hour-work-week for OT calculations, not the actual 40 I have worked.
I was originally asked to work 6 days, but to come in for only 3 hours on the 6th day. This would have resulted in working 6 days a week but no OT pay at all. Um, no. I have a 60 mile commute...
Anyway, I don't really care, but I find the whole rounding thing interesting on the time clock app.
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teen persuasion
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Post by teen persuasion on Sept 24, 2014 23:05:06 GMT -5
The only job I had where I punched a clock was more than 25 years ago. The owners did not want us to punch in early,and we would not get paid for the extra minutes. They would also not pay for minutes after your shift was over unless a manager signed off on it. They only signed off on it for those staying to close up/count out the drawers at the end of the night. Most cashiers were counted out well before closing time; they would just keep one checkout open to the end. I often got to stay to close up because I could count out a drawer quickly and accurately while managers ran the nightly reports. Ten minutes and we were out of there, and I got a bit more pay. I don't think they rounded, though. They were exact to the minute.
I also remember the owners played games with scheduling on Sundays, when we were open 6 hours. If you worked six hours you had to get a 15 minute break, so half of the staff started 15 minutes after we opened, and the other half left 15 minutes before we closed. That way no one worked 6 hours.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Sept 24, 2014 23:18:23 GMT -5
It's interesting. We also have odd rules about OT. You only get it for over 40 hours in a week, not for your 6th day. And, any OT you worked, getting to your 40 hour week, does not count. So, if I work 10 hours in a day and get 2 hours of OT, then I am considered to have worked 8 hours that week so far. So, even though I work 10 hours on M-TH, I am paid OT for the 8 hours, 2 hours each day over 8 hours, but I have only 32 hours towards the 40 hour-work-week for OT calculations, not the actual 40 I have worked. I was originally asked to work 6 days, but to come in for only 3 hours on the 6th day. This would have resulted in working 6 days a week but no OT pay at all. Um, no. I have a 60 mile commute... That is actually a better deal than anyplace I have worked. You are working 40 hours, but getting 8 hours of it as OT. Here four 10 hour days wouldn't get you any OT. It does make sense they wouldn't count those 8 hours towards your 40 for the week. They are paying you OT on them, so they aren't regular hours. As far as the rounding, I know many companies that do that so I would assume it is legal. One company if we were within about 2 minutes we would just hang out a bit and wait to clock out. Walmart got in trouble for having people clock out and then having them work more.
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resolution
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Post by resolution on Sept 25, 2014 0:33:09 GMT -5
It's interesting. We also have odd rules about OT. You only get it for over 40 hours in a week, not for your 6th day. And, any OT you worked, getting to your 40 hour week, does not count. So, if I work 10 hours in a day and get 2 hours of OT, then I am considered to have worked 8 hours that week so far. So, even though I work 10 hours on M-TH, I am paid OT for the 8 hours, 2 hours each day over 8 hours, but I have only 32 hours towards the 40 hour-work-week for OT calculations, not the actual 40 I have worked. I was originally asked to work 6 days, but to come in for only 3 hours on the 6th day. This would have resulted in working 6 days a week but no OT pay at all. Um, no. I have a 60 mile commute... Anyway, I don't really care, but I find the whole rounding thing interesting on the time clock app. My employer does 6 minute increments, so if I work 8 - 5:06 I would record it as 8.1 hours.
Our OT is calculated after we have worked 40 hours straight time. So if I work 5 - 10 hour days, the first four days would be regular time and the fifth day would be OT. If I called in sick any day that week I would just end up with the regular 40 hours that I worked from four tens.
For such a new job, I would come in for the 3 hours that they requested despite the commute. It would make a better impression of me for future raises as well as extra money from the overtime.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Sept 25, 2014 0:42:33 GMT -5
Shasta,
I would guess yes. My employer started doing this, this January, supposedly in relation to complaints of paychecks being to variable. The change also coincided to a payroll change from checks to direct deposit or debit card.
Our former clocking, which I liked better, did it in 6 minute increments, like lawyers. Working in the highly regulated healthcare field, I would guess it is legal.
You want to avoid healthcare and sub-acutes if you want the very generous OT policies you are used to. There is no OT here until you are over 40 hours in a week. I've definitely worked 6 and even 7 days PT, with no OT pay. Given we are 24x7x365, as a per diem or PT we also do not get holiday pay nor are required to get comp time.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Sept 25, 2014 6:06:14 GMT -5
You could always ask your state department of labor...
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Sept 25, 2014 6:29:28 GMT -5
From www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_overtime.htmIn California, the general overtime provisions are that a nonexempt employee 18 years of age or older, or any minor employee 16 or 17 years of age who is not required by law to attend school and is not otherwise prohibited by law from engaging in the subject work, shall not be employed more than eight hours in any workday or more than 40 hours in any workweek unless he or she receives one and one-half times his or her regular rate of pay for all hours worked over eight hours in any workday and over 40 hours in the workweek. Eight hours of labor constitutes a day's work, and employment beyond eight hours in any workday or more than six days in any workweek is permissible provided the employee is compensated for the overtime at not less than: One and one-half times the employee's regular rate of pay for all hours worked in excess of eight hours up to and including 12 hours in any workday, and for the first eight hours worked on the seventh consecutive day of work in a workweek; and Double the employee's regular rate of pay for all hours worked in excess of 12 hours in any workday and for all hours worked in excess of eight on the seventh consecutive day of work in a workweek. There are, however, a number of exemptions from the overtime law. An "exemption" means that the overtime law does not apply to a particular classification of employees. There are also a number of exceptions to the general overtime law stated above. An "exception" means that overtime is paid to a certain classification of employees on a basis that differs from that stated above.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2014 7:33:13 GMT -5
It's interesting. We also have odd rules about OT. You only get it for over 40 hours in a week, not for your 6th day. And, any OT you worked, getting to your 40 hour week, does not count. So, if I work 10 hours in a day and get 2 hours of OT, then I am considered to have worked 8 hours that week so far. So, even though I work 10 hours on M-TH, I am paid OT for the 8 hours, 2 hours each day over 8 hours, but I have only 32 hours towards the 40 hour-work-week for OT calculations, not the actual 40 I have worked. I was originally asked to work 6 days, but to come in for only 3 hours on the 6th day. This would have resulted in working 6 days a week but no OT pay at all. Um, no. I have a 60 mile commute... That is actually a better deal than anyplace I have worked. You are working 40 hours, but getting 8 hours of it as OT. Here four 10 hour days wouldn't get you any OT. It does make sense they wouldn't count those 8 hours towards your 40 for the week. They are paying you OT on them, so they aren't regular hours. As far as the rounding, I know many companies that do that so I would assume it is legal. One company if we were within about 2 minutes we would just hang out a bit and wait to clock out. Walmart got in trouble for having people clock out and then having them work more. Here either. It wouldn't make any sense for us since we have people working 5-8's, 4-10's and 3-12's sometimes side by side on the same day. The 5-8's people would be getting screwed. So, it's anything over 40 hours is OT and Sunday is double time, but only if you've worked Saturday AND not until you hit a minimum of 48 hours that week. Otherwise you would have people piling on the hours during the week and working Sunday for the DT and nobody coming in Saturday. Since we're a manufacturing facility, we need people here 7 days a week. We're also on the 6 minute increments deal for time clock.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Sept 25, 2014 7:37:11 GMT -5
The last time I knew of anyone clocking, you couldn't clock in before 3 minutes before the time you were supposed to. It actually wouldn't let you. Nice line at the machine btw. Same thing with leaving. If they are asking you to clock in early and late, that's another story.
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Abby Normal
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Post by Abby Normal on Sept 25, 2014 10:41:41 GMT -5
In my state- because we are a manufacturing facility- our employees get overtime for anything over 40 hours in a week OR over 10 hours in a day. So three 12 hour shifts would get 30 reg and 6 OT.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Sept 25, 2014 12:00:22 GMT -5
I have to wonder.... If your employer handles your time worked in this way, is it legal? If I clock out at 5:00 I am paid for 8 hours (just an example). If I clock out at 5:07 I am paid for 8 hours. If I clock out at 5:08 I am paid for 8.25 hours. So, if I clock in 7 minutes early, and have to stay 7 minutes late, they round it so I am not paid for those 14 minutes - and get no overtime for those 7 minutes as well. Didn't WalMart get sued for this? I don't really care, because I am smart enough to check the clock before I clock in and out, but is this practice legal? It seems like it wouldn't be. When I last looked at the Federal Wage and Hours law in detail, many years ago, your employer's practice was acceptable. However, you are working in CA, which is another world when it comes to wages and hours. If you really want to know the answer, you'll need to check with the CA department of labor.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Sept 25, 2014 12:12:04 GMT -5
I've lived in CA (my whole life) and used to work in HR. Under CA Wage and Hour Law, what they are doing IS legal (rounding).
Because of rounding, I once worked for an employer who used to discipline/write people up for punching in "too early" or punching out "too late" (in order to try and collect that extra 15 minutes of payment).
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2014 11:00:18 GMT -5
Fortunately, I am working in a store where they are having a hard time replacing the CSR and I am allowed to work unlimited OT right now. It's a blessing (financially) and a curse (because I feel like I live at work...)
Not complaining, I just found their system a bit odd. But, most of my working experience has either been under a strong union contract, or as a salary employee who was exempt from OT.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Sept 26, 2014 11:24:45 GMT -5
Fortunately, I am working in a store where they are having a hard time replacing the CSR and I am allowed to work unlimited OT right now. It's a blessing (financially) and a curse (because I feel like I live at work...) Not complaining, I just found their system a bit odd. But, most of my working experience has either been under a strong union contract, or as a salary employee who was exempt from OT. The nice thing about massive OT is you're racking up the pay but don't have the time or energy to spend it. I blew through a lot of debt right out of school this way. It won't last forever, take it while you can still get it .
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2014 11:36:40 GMT -5
Fortunately, I am working in a store where they are having a hard time replacing the CSR and I am allowed to work unlimited OT right now. It's a blessing (financially) and a curse (because I feel like I live at work...) Not complaining, I just found their system a bit odd. But, most of my working experience has either been under a strong union contract, or as a salary employee who was exempt from OT. The nice thing about massive OT is you're racking up the pay but don't have the time or energy to spend it. I blew through a lot of debt right out of school this way. It won't last forever, take it while you can still get it . When I first went back to work in 2005. I worked around the clock for over a year. We're talking all of 1st shift (4-10's) and all of 4th shift (3-12's Friday, Saturday and Sunday). I was in panic mode for building up a cash reserve and didn't see my son much for age 3, but I saved up a crap ton of money in a relatively short period of time which has carried me for years. I really wish I could do that again, if even for just a few months, but it's not available in my current "better" position.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Sept 26, 2014 12:59:16 GMT -5
I agree with the Captain and MPL, Shasta. For this short period of time (until they can hire more staff) grab as much overtime as you are physically and emotionally capable of handling and stash the OT wages away. It should give you a pretty nice cushion. But don't decide what to do with it while you're in the middle of it (sez me). Stash it away until the "money trail" ends. Then take the time to sit down and look at your "big picture" and make a logical plan for what to do with that money (Make it into an EF? Replace the old car? Move? Pay down debt?). Here's the chance you've been wanting to be logical and "planful" with money - not just on that hamster wheel of scraping by to stay one step ahead of minimum payments and/or the debt collector. Yay!
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Peace77
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Post by Peace77 on Sept 26, 2014 15:56:51 GMT -5
I agree with the others about getting as much overtime as you can.
However, I would plan for it before it comes. For example: 1. Get caught up on bills and taxes. 2. Stock the pantry and freezer with enough food to last at least 2 -4 weeks 3. Set aside a $500 emergency fund. 4. Take care of things that have been put off such as check ups with the doctor, dentist, eye doctor, home & car maintenance. 5. Increase emergency fund to $1,000 6. Clothes for you and your boys. 7. Save up for a better car or whatever you need most.
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Sept 26, 2014 21:59:45 GMT -5
I work a tax season job. The time clock works like this. Co-workers told me about it the first day. If it's 5:07, wait until the computer says 5:09 to punch out. In my state, OT has to be paid in any week where over 40 hours are worked. A week is Sunday through Saturday.
When I lived in another state, OT was paid if you worked 80 hours in a 2 week period. State laws vary.
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