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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 27, 2014 20:27:30 GMT -5
the coalition of the afraid?
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Sept 28, 2014 10:01:11 GMT -5
the coalition of the afraid? I rather look at it as partly that but also more a awareness that there is a danger serious enough to have party's that disagree with each other on it seems all things , in fact some who are deadly enemies , actually been at war either officially or not , , realize that co operation on a common danger is necessary for their survival... Surprising to me though is that China and Russia, two very major nations and ones with veto power in the UN where one might expect mutual cooperation have seen so far to want to not commit and rather stand on the side lines on this threat..unless they feel there is no threat to themselves..though it has been reported that Russia could be in danger form this group ISIS..
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 28, 2014 10:53:41 GMT -5
necessary for survival? i see. they are doing this because ISIS is an existential threat.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Sept 28, 2014 19:08:34 GMT -5
necessary for survival? i see. they are doing this because ISIS is an existential threat. I have to admit I don't understand your remark and as far as it being one that has you on the floor in hysterics, I guess I am missing that one too...I guess you think that what is happening with these people is a joke, something to amuse yourself..I don't see it that way at all...
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 29, 2014 1:07:20 GMT -5
necessary for survival? i see. they are doing this because ISIS is an existential threat. I have to admit I don't understand your remark and as far as it being one that has you on the floor in hysterics, I guess I am missing that one too...I guess you think that what is happening with these people is a joke, something to amuse yourself..I don't see it that way at all... i don't find ISIS comical at all. i found your threat assessment of ISIS comical, ludicrous, and absurd. and yeah, you really do miss a ton of stuff.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Sept 29, 2014 7:08:05 GMT -5
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 29, 2014 11:45:46 GMT -5
djAdvocate - I don't know if I agree that ISIS is not a threat. i didn't say they weren't a threat. i said that they were not an EXISTENTIAL threat. agree or disagree?
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 29, 2014 11:47:05 GMT -5
there are a lot of "if's" in that statement. it kind of reminds me of the threat that Saddam was purported to have provided.
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 29, 2014 11:48:34 GMT -5
again, i think that it is totally absurd that we are fighting ISIS because they are a "threat to our survival". i am more threatened by Ebola, candidly.
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Post by The Captain on Sept 29, 2014 12:06:11 GMT -5
djAdvocate - I don't know if I agree that ISIS is not a threat. i didn't say they weren't a threat. i said that they were not an EXISTENTIAL threat. agree or disagree? At this point in time I would agree. However (and it REALLY pains me to say this) despite the barbarity of the actions of their foot soldiers, I see some serious intelligence behind the scenes directing the movement of the pawns. IMHO I think religion is an excuse (as it often is) for a wealth/power grab by someone wanting to carve out their own little fiefdom. Maybe it's because I recenlyt watched The World Wars on the History Channel, but I'm really divided about the US acting vs not acting in certain situations. Sometimes we wait too long.
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Post by The Captain on Sept 29, 2014 12:11:13 GMT -5
there are a lot of "if's" in that statement. it kind of reminds me of the threat that Saddam was purported to have provided. IMHO Saddam was just an excuse drummed up by Jr to go in and finish the job Sr started. See my prior post, yes there are a lot of "ifs". BUT - hindsight is always 20/20. Knowing what we know now, at what point do you think the US should have gotten involved in WWII for example? I'm not saying I agree with the US getting involved (or even leading at this point), but I don't think it's a good idea to let these goons continue to accrete power unchecked.
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 29, 2014 12:40:41 GMT -5
i didn't say they weren't a threat. i said that they were not an EXISTENTIAL threat. agree or disagree? At this point in time I would agree. given the amount of light and heat they are getting, how much of a chance of BECOMING one do you think they have? edit: i realize this is a "straddling argument", so you can treat it as an "aside" if you wish.
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 29, 2014 12:41:35 GMT -5
Maybe it's because I recenlyt watched The World Wars on the History Channel, but I'm really divided about the US acting vs not acting in certain situations. Sometimes we wait too long. i would argue that we more often than not don't wait long enough.
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 29, 2014 12:43:06 GMT -5
there are a lot of "if's" in that statement. it kind of reminds me of the threat that Saddam was purported to have provided. IMHO Saddam was just an excuse drummed up by Jr to go in and finish the job Sr started. See my prior post, yes there are a lot of "ifs". BUT - hindsight is always 20/20. Knowing what we know now, at what point do you think the US should have gotten involved in WWII for example? I'm not saying I agree with the US getting involved (or even leading at this point), but I don't think it's a good idea to let these goons continue to accrete power unchecked. i have a very serious issue with "proactive wars", Captain. i think they are morally wrong. now, you an argue that reactive wars are worse, and that's fine. go ahead. but i think that reasonable men can have this debate, and that there is more than enough ammo on both sides to make it a good one. which reminds me: where the hell is congress?
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Post by The Captain on Sept 29, 2014 12:55:46 GMT -5
djAdvocate - You and I are in agreement - I also don't believe in "proactive wars". In fact, I think all wars are morally wrong, even when you are fighting for the "right" reasons. People who never wanted the conflict always end up getting caught in the cross-fire. Personally, I would do everything I could to avoid having a situation escalate into a physical confrontation. However, I will defend myself, my family, and my property if attacked. That's easy to say on an individual level. On a global level, especially given the level of technology that exists today, I think that argument becomes much more difficult. Do we wait until some nut job flies three or four more planes into major population centers? Do we sit idly by and watch as thousands of defenseless people are slaughtered like animals? I don't know the answers. I just wish we had evolved enough to be able to go for a few hundred years without a conflict. Maybe then we would forget what wars are all about.
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Post by The Captain on Sept 29, 2014 13:08:54 GMT -5
At this point in time I would agree. However (and it REALLY pains me to say this) despite the barbarity of the actions of their foot soldiers, I see some serious intelligence behind the scenes directing the movement of the pawns. IMHO I think religion is an excuse (as it often is) for a wealth/power grab by someone wanting to carve out their own little fiefdom. Maybe it's because I recenlyt watched The World Wars on the History Channel, but I'm really divided about the US acting vs not acting in certain situations. Sometimes we wait too long. That's a great series! We're on episode 3 or 4 here, but very well done so far.
It boggles my mind that we stayed out of WW2 so long, but then jump right in when it comes to other conflicts. I did read once about the high amount of German(ic) and Italian immigrants in the US. The vast majority were opposed to going to war against there homelands in this poll.
One of the weakest things (IMHO) about our system of government is that our foreign policy can do a 180 based on who is elected to office.
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 29, 2014 13:09:02 GMT -5
djAdvocate - You and I are in agreement - I also don't believe in "proactive wars". In fact, I think all wars are morally wrong, even when you are fighting for the "right" reasons. People who never wanted the conflict always end up getting caught in the cross-fire. Personally, I would do everything I could to avoid having a situation escalate into a physical confrontation. However, I will defend myself, my family, and my property if attacked. That's easy to say on an individual level. On a global level, especially given the level of technology that exists today, I think that argument becomes much more difficult. Do we wait until some nut job flies three or four more planes into major population centers? Do we sit idly by and watch as thousands of defenseless people are slaughtered like animals? I don't know the answers. I just wish we had evolved enough to be able to go for a few hundred years without a conflict. Maybe then we would forget what wars are all about. to be clear, i am absolutely in favor of DEFENSE. that is in the preamble. i am 100% down with that idea. so, wars of aggression should not be tolerated. we have the right and duty to defend ourselves and our country against any country or individuals that attack us. i think where i differ with most others is that i don't agree that THREATS constitute an "attack". the standard reply is "so you would just wait for an attack?", and my standard reply is: what is our alternative? attacking them?
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 29, 2014 13:10:51 GMT -5
That's a great series! We're on episode 3 or 4 here, but very well done so far.
It boggles my mind that we stayed out of WW2 so long, but then jump right in when it comes to other conflicts. I did read once about the high amount of German(ic) and Italian immigrants in the US. The vast majority were opposed to going to war against there homelands in this poll.
One of the weakest things (IMHO) about our system of government is that our foreign policy can do a 180 based on who is elected to office. our foreign policy, which has consisted of mainly using our military against anyone we disagree with and is weaker than us, has been remarkably consistent since WW2. Obama's FP is indistinguishable from Bush's in the practical sense. Bush's was indistinguishable from Clinton's, etc.
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Post by deziloooooo on Sept 30, 2014 14:30:05 GMT -5
I have to admit I don't understand your remark and as far as it being one that has you on the floor in hysterics, I guess I am missing that one too...I guess you think that what is happening with these people is a joke, something to amuse yourself..I don't see it that way at all... i don't find ISIS comical at all. i found your threat assessment of ISIS comical, ludicrous, and absurd. and yeah, you really do miss a ton of stuff. " comical and ludicrous "..kind of strong words ..disagree ok ...but getting personal over a issue, for me a bit much...but seems to be your shtick for whatever reason it seems to amuse yourself.. Since I am not getting it I guess, { I think thats allowed here..}how about explaining where you find my thoughts are so off the mark , as I am getting them for the most part by trying to interpete what nations have been doing on this problem and what these nation leaders have been saying ..naturally their thoughts are what are being posted publickly.
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 30, 2014 14:46:36 GMT -5
i don't find ISIS comical at all. i found your threat assessment of ISIS comical, ludicrous, and absurd. and yeah, you really do miss a ton of stuff. " comical and ludicrous "..kind of strong words ..disagree ok ...but getting personal over a issue, for me a bit much...but seems to be your shtick what "seems to be my schtick"? for whatever reason it seems to amuse yourself.. yes, hyperbole amuses me.Since I am not getting it I guess, { I think thats allowed here..}how about explaining where you find my thoughts are so off the mark , quite simple, really. a small band of zealots half way around the world are not a significant threat to the US or its allies, particularly in the Americas and in most of Asia. you and others make it seem like a "fight for survival", but it is really nothing of the kind. but i understand. telling the truth about the level of the threat would not be very motivating, so you have to make up all this nonsense about mushroom clouds and the end times to stir people up. i get why it upsets you when i laugh at that, too. that response is exactly the opposite of the one you are seeking.as I am getting them for the most part by trying to interpete (sic: interpret?) what nations have been doing on this problem and what these nation leaders have been saying ..naturally their thoughts are what are being posted publickly. not too interested in the public rhetoric, myself. i find the strategic logic far more interesting.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Sept 30, 2014 14:47:16 GMT -5
At this point in time I would agree. However (and it REALLY pains me to say this) despite the barbarity of the actions of their foot soldiers, I see some serious intelligence behind the scenes directing the movement of the pawns. IMHO I think religion is an excuse (as it often is) for a wealth/power grab by someone wanting to carve out their own little fiefdom. Maybe it's because I recenlyt watched The World Wars on the History Channel, but I'm really divided about the US acting vs not acting in certain situations. Sometimes we wait too long. That's a great series! We're on episode 3 or 4 here, but very well done so far.
It boggles my mind that we stayed out of WW2 so long, but then jump right in when it comes to other conflicts. I did read once about the high amount of German(ic) and Italian immigrants in the US. The vast majority were opposed to going to war against there homelands in this poll.
To get a sense of where the country's thoughts and feelings where during this time, before and just before Pearl Harbor I suggest googling Father Coughlin "..he was a Roman Catholic Priest who had some very strange ideas ..anti semetic..and had a radio show , nation wise on Sundays that the majority of the adult population some how seemed to end up listening to.. "He was one of the first political leaders to use radio to reach a mass audience, as up to thirty million listeners tuned to his weekly broadcasts during the 1930s. e was forced off the air in 1939."also if your really interested in the period..google "German American Bund"..It would be interesting to see how many youth camps, adult marching organizations and even rallies at large popular venues..see Madison Square garden...Gives you a idea of what Roosevelt was up against in trying to get nation to accept that there was a danger out there and we should be preparing...One example..the draft proposal, Law, was passed....by one vote... In a way, ironic though it might seem, one of the best weapons on our side , was the existence of Adolph himself..his decisions ..Granted his initial ones on coming to power and then the beginning of the war gave the Germans..{Natzis } success..his subsequent ones..example..declaring war on the USA after Pearl Harbor..not necessary and by so doing allowed Roosevelt to not have to bother trying to appease his opposition and allowed him to work with Britain , Churchill , in setting up a comprehensive plan to win this war..
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Post by deziloooooo on Sept 30, 2014 14:50:10 GMT -5
" comical and ludicrous "..kind of strong words ..disagree ok ...but getting personal over a issue, for me a bit much...but seems to be your shtick what "seems to be my schtick"? for whatever reason it seems to amuse yourself.. yes, hyperbole amuses me.Since I am not getting it I guess, { I think thats allowed here..}how about explaining where you find my thoughts are so off the mark , quite simple, really. a small band of zealots half way around the world are not a significant threat to the US or its allies, particularly in the Americas and in most of Asia. you and others make it seem like a "fight for survival", but it is really nothing of the kind. but i understand. telling the truth about the level of the threat would not be very motivating, so you have to make up all this nonsense about mushroom clouds and the end times to stir people up. i get why it upsets you when i laugh at that, too. that response is exactly the opposite of the one you are seeking.as I am getting them for the most part by trying to interpete (sic: interpret?) what nations have been doing on this problem and what these nation leaders have been saying ..naturally their thoughts are what are being posted publickly. not too interested in the public rhetoric, myself. i find the strategic logic far more interesting. "mushroom clouds and the end times to stir people up"..
Did I post such things..I must have been sleep walking again, can't remember ever posting any such thoughts..possible you can point out where I did so..
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 30, 2014 14:54:58 GMT -5
not too interested in the public rhetoric, myself. i find the strategic logic far more interesting. "mushroom clouds and the end times to stir people up"..
Did I post such things..I must have been sleep walking again, can't remember ever posting any such thoughts..possible you can point out where I did so.. i was talking about exaggerated threats, dez. in your case, you said "fight for survival", which i am still chuckling about. as i have told you many many times before, i generally ONLY talk about posters when they talk about ME. the word "you" in that sentence is the indefinite YOU, not YOU personally. if it makes it less confusing, substitute "a person" or "one" or "they" for that word when necessary. so, what do you think my "schtick" is?
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Post by The Captain on Sept 30, 2014 20:25:23 GMT -5
To get a sense of where the country's thoughts and feelings where during this time, before and just before Pearl Harbor I suggest googling Father Coughlin "..he was a Roman Catholic Priest who had some very strange ideas ..anti semetic..and had a radio show , nation wise on Sundays that the majority of the adult population some how seemed to end up listening to.. "He was one of the first political leaders to use radio to reach a mass audience, as up to thirty million listeners tuned to his weekly broadcasts during the 1930s. e was forced off the air in 1939."also if your really interested in the period..google "German American Bund"..It would be interesting to see how many youth camps, adult marching organizations and even rallies at large popular venues..see Madison Square garden...Gives you a idea of what Roosevelt was up against in trying to get nation to accept that there was a danger out there and we should be preparing...One example..the draft proposal, Law, was passed....by one vote... In a way, ironic though it might seem, one of the best weapons on our side , was the existence of Adolph himself..his decisions ..Granted his initial ones on coming to power and then the beginning of the war gave the Germans..{Natzis } success..his subsequent ones..example..declaring war on the USA after Pearl Harbor..not necessary and by so doing allowed Roosevelt to not have to bother trying to appease his opposition and allowed him to work with Britain , Churchill , in setting up a comprehensive plan to win this war.. Dezi - I've read a bit about him. Actually need to do more reading to understand better the historical content of that time. My maternal side came from Germany and Ireland. Decades after that time I'm finally beginning to understand some of the family tensions/dynamics.
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 30, 2014 21:14:30 GMT -5
Coughlin is the example i cite when people say that there were no conservative commentators on the radio before Limbaugh.
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 3, 2014 9:04:52 GMT -5
Found this on page four of recent topics. Anyone know if we are still bombing in Syria?
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