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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 18, 2014 18:03:17 GMT -5
They left because they were undercut by labor that still lives in mud huts, uses a currency that's extremely weak against the dollar, and has a government in place that will manipulate said currency however possible to keep it that way. Free trade, not union, agreements killed US manufacturing. And how do you think (when you include the cost of transporting the manufactured goods back here) they managed to undercut us? Overinflated wages courtesy of unions and employees with a slightly over-elevated opinion of their worth. We didn't need to stay at "slave wages"... but we also didn't need to go to $20 an hour PLUS "benefits" (making it realistically more like $30-$50 in cost to the employer... or more an hour). We DEFINITELY didn't need to go to Auto Worker pay of about $70 (including benefits) per hour. Germany pays 2x what we pay and builds 2x as many cars as we do. go figure.
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Post by Value Buy on Sept 18, 2014 18:05:36 GMT -5
I see DJ did not comment on Janet Yellen's comments yesterday.
i didn't hear or read them.
She stated the country is still suffering from: The markets are creating jobs, BUT, we still have high unemployment
it's not really high, imo. but it is "less than full employment".
underemployment Way too many part time jobs being created, and not enough full time jobs being created
this year? yes. since 2010? no. 90% of jobs created since 2010 are full time.
The number of people not seeking employment because they have fallen off the cliff is huge.
1/3 of the people who have "fallen off a cliff" retired. some of them quit because the primary bread winner is making enough to support the house. some of them went back to college, or are retraining for other work. and yes, some are chronically unemployed. but they are a minority.
Job creation is not at the level the country needs to return to economic norms.
totally false. i already projected this out. it will take 5-7 years to reach full employment.
Therefore the Fed rate will remain low.
There you have it dj, the Fed says it is bad out there, regardless of your claims to the contrary.
no, what we have is the Fed wanting to keep the economy rolling to make up for how bad it WAS.
What is the old saying, If it looks like a... if it walks like a ..... And if it quacks like a ... It's a ....... if it looks like a recovery, it is a recovery. people act like this is still a recession. dj, read her statement. She says the recovery is weak at best. If a government agency says we have problems with employment levels, I feel fine believing them and will accept it as fact rather than your personal business relationships.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 18, 2014 18:41:14 GMT -5
if it looks like a recovery, it is a recovery. people act like this is still a recession. dj, read her statement. She says the recovery is weak at best. If a government agency says we have problems with employment levels, I feel fine believing them and will accept it as fact rather than your personal business relationships.
i didn't mention my "personal business relationships" ONCE in my reply, VB. but terrific ad hominem. really. well done. economic growth is low. i will grant you/her that. but everything else looks good to me.
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Post by EVT1 on Sept 18, 2014 19:04:02 GMT -5
There is a lot of truth to this.
The guy that can run the machine probably also makes more than the Philosophy major.
And that's exactly why manufacturing jobs are going out of country... And I thought it was the short sighted business majors.
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Post by EVT1 on Sept 18, 2014 19:11:36 GMT -5
Saw a documentary a while back about the outsourcing of aircraft maintenance- and how the countries that it went to are now being undercut by others once people figure out what they are worth and demand better. It is a vicious spiral and there is no reason for it.
www.redtailmovie.com/
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Post by Value Buy on Sept 18, 2014 19:43:04 GMT -5
dj, read her statement. She says the recovery is weak at best. If a government agency says we have problems with employment levels, I feel fine believing them and will accept it as fact rather than your personal business relationships.
i didn't mention my "personal business relationships" ONCE in my reply, VB. but terrific ad hominem. really. well done. economic growth is low. i will grant you/her that. but everything else looks good to me. Go to your response in this thread. Number 23 I repeat, if the Fed is still down on emplotment rates, there is a problem with our producing jobs. And I will grant you, the economy is improving. I have even said in another thread, that we are losing people to better paying jobs, as well as full time positions elsewhere. Arcelar Mittal Steel is a good example here in northwest Indiana. They are hiring virtually every week new people to full time positions making $20 an hour, or more, with good benefits. Most even work a couple of doubles immediately after being trained, and put on the job. BUT.....it is not just the economy, or the steel industry upswing. They expect upwards of 1,500 baby boomers retiring in the next few years, and they have to hire and train their replacements. Still, a new hire is a new hire........
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 18, 2014 19:44:16 GMT -5
(They also believe the deficit is the lowest it's been in years.)...which doesn't even include the trillions in agency debt, or the asset purchases by the Fed banks. (Let them have their cookie. Smile. Try not to make eye contact.)
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Post by Value Buy on Sept 18, 2014 20:14:11 GMT -5
Does Germany actually build 2 times the number of cars the USA does? I never realized that.
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 18, 2014 20:51:25 GMT -5
Does Germany actually build 2 times the number of cares the USA does? I never realized that. i read it in Forbes, so it must be true.
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 18, 2014 20:55:23 GMT -5
i didn't mention my "personal business relationships" ONCE in my reply, VB. but terrific ad hominem. really. well done. economic growth is low. i will grant you/her that. but everything else looks good to me. Go to your response in this thread. Number 23
why? does it have something to do with my response to you (aka "reply")? i doubt it, because i think you just entered the discussion. but if i wasn't clear before, let me be now: i was referring to OUR discussion- MY reply TO YOU. not to other posters.
I repeat, if the Fed is still down on emplotment rates, there is a problem with our producing jobs.
our job production rate is the best it has been since 1999. if the Fed wants more, that's ducky.
And I will grant you, the economy is improving. I have even said in another thread, that we are losing people to better paying jobs, as well as full time positions elsewhere.
not following you. elsewhere WHERE?
Arcelar Mittal Steel is a good example here in northwest Indiana. They are hiring virtually every week new people to full time positions making $20 an hour, or more, with good benefits. Most even work a couple of doubles immediately after being trained, and put on the job. BUT.....it is not just the economy, or the steel industry upswing. They expect upwards of 1,500 baby boomers retiring in the next few years, and they have to hire and train their replacements. Still, a new hire is a new hire........
Mittal is Indian owned. i hear a huge sucking sound.
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Post by Value Buy on Sept 18, 2014 21:32:21 GMT -5
Go to your response in this thread. Number 23
why? does it have something to do with my response to you (aka "reply")? i doubt it, because i think you just entered the discussion. but if i wasn't clear before, let me be now: i was referring to OUR discussion- MY reply TO YOU. not to other posters.
I repeat, if the Fed is still down on emplotment rates, there is a problem with our producing jobs.
our job production rate is the best it has been since 1999. if the Fed wants more, that's ducky.
And I will grant you, the economy is improving. I have even said in another thread, that we are losing people to better paying jobs, as well as full time positions elsewhere.
not following you. elsewhere WHERE? HOW THE HECK AM I SUPPOSED TO RMEMBER?? IT WAS IN A THREAD ABOUT JOB MARKET IMPROVING HERE IN THE STATES!
Arcelar Mittal Steel is a good example here in northwest Indiana. They are hiring virtually every week new people to full time positions making $20 an hour, or more, with good benefits. Most even work a couple of doubles immediately after being trained, and put on the job. BUT.....it is not just the economy, or the steel industry upswing. They expect upwards of 1,500 baby boomers retiring in the next few years, and they have to hire and train their replacements. Still, a new hire is a new hire........
Mittal is Indian owned. i hear a huge sucking sound. You got something against an Indian from India? It is an international steel manufacturing company with mills around the world. The stock is traded around the world. They bought bankrupt Bethlehem steel, as well as Inland steel here in Indiana. Heck they even just settled a price fixing scandal with the Feds. What could be more American than that? If it makes you feel any better, I understand USS is also hiring at Gary Works for the same reason Mittal is, only they are not advertising the fact.
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Post by Value Buy on Sept 18, 2014 21:37:13 GMT -5
For the record I responded to the thread three days ago I did not know we are measured on participation as to when we join a thread. Thanks for the memo.
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 18, 2014 21:38:42 GMT -5
Mittal is Indian owned. i hear a huge sucking sound. You got something against an Indian from India?
not as long as they are running American owned businesses.
It is an international steel manufacturing company with mills around the world. The stock is traded around the world.
i am quite aware of who they are and what they do, VB. i even know about the guy that runs it. he is one of the wealthiest men in the world. oh, and in case you are wondering, no, i don't have anything "against that fact".
They bought bankrupt Bethlehem steel, as well as Inland steel here in Indiana. Heck they even just settled a price fixing scandal with the Feds. What could be more American than that?\
ibid
If it makes you feel any better, I understand USS is also hiring at Gary Works for the same reason Mittal is, only they are not advertising the fact.
i know all about the US Steel industry, VB. gonna answer my question, or just hack me apart some more?
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 18, 2014 21:47:33 GMT -5
For the record I responded to the thread three days ago I did not know we are measured on participation as to when we join a thread. Thanks for the memo. sorry, i guess i was unclear there. let me try again. to the best of my memory, our discussion- that is, YOU replying to me and ME replying to you, started today. if i am wrong, let me know, and i will review whatever post that i have forgotten between us. when i said REPLY, i meant TO YOU. if that was unclear, again, i apologize, but that is what i meant. now, to reiterate and tie this all together, IN MY REPLY TO YOU, i didn't mention anything personal. if YOU want to bring my personal references into OUR discussion, that is fine, but that is not what i was referring to in my defense of my post to YOU. if that is not suitably clear, please let me know. otherwise, i would appreciate it if you would answer my question. so you don't have to go looking, here is the exchange: YOU: And I will grant you, the economy is improving. I have even said in another thread, that we are losing people to better paying jobs, as well as full time positions elsewhere.
ME: not following you. elsewhere WHERE?
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Post by Value Buy on Sept 18, 2014 21:51:33 GMT -5
He is being reasonable.
he is missing the point entirely, and lacking all historical perspective, imo. his POV and yours may be entirely valid for you, but this economy is actually doing very well. i am utterly sympathetic if it is not doing well for you, but i don't think you are the norm.
DJ, you are speaking from the point of view of a business owner who has been doing well. Have no idea what your STEM status one way or the other. Shaun, is talking as a former UNIX admin who finally got kissed hard by freality and had his (first?) encounter with when low ball bidders win and how it effects you and your employment.
I might post some bonafides later. Really only someone who worked with me is likely to figure it out, but still, I'm keeping it semi-clean until I "come out" on the rest of social media in RL and at least have a presence where people can find me.
FWIW, BOHICA was a favorite phrase during the time I had employment as a UNIX admin for Lucent which at that time cut loose many employees into IBM's contractor workforce. (I worked for a subcontractor to IBM on that Lucent contract.)
sorry, but i understood almost none of that. i am in manufacturing and advertizing (two wildly different businesses). everybody i talk to is doing really incredibly well. and you are right, it impacts my perspective. i have a hard time understanding those that are not doing well. but i don't think that it is "just me". it isn't. it is literally everyone i know. and i know that is a small universe. but it covers a lot of ground. ok, fine. everything sucks, i guess. except for everyone i know personally. sheesh. Ok dj, message 23, your last paragraph at the end you state everything is good and it affects your perspective. Does this answer your question? I believe it was fair to bring it into my thread message at the time. Not everyone here answers only one message at a time and uses other messages in a discussion.
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Post by Value Buy on Sept 18, 2014 21:53:41 GMT -5
For the record I responded to the thread three days ago I did not know we are measured on participation as to when we join a thread. Thanks for the memo. sorry, i guess i was unclear there. let me try again. to the best of my memory, our discussion- that is, YOU replying to me and ME replying to you, started today. if i am wrong, let me know, and i will review whatever post that i have forgotten between us. when i said REPLY, i meant TO YOU. if that was unclear, again, i apologize, but that is what i meant. now, to reiterate and tie this all together, IN MY REPLY TO YOU, i didn't mention anything personal. if YOU want to bring my personal references into OUR discussion, that is fine, but that is not what i was referring to in my defense of my post to YOU. if that is not suitably clear, please let me know. otherwise, i would appreciate it if you would answer my question. so you don't have to go looking, here is the exchange: YOU: And I will grant you, the economy is improving. I have even said in another thread, that we are losing people to better paying jobs, as well as full time positions elsewhere.
ME: not following you. elsewhere WHERE?dj, we are crossing paths without nailing the subject! I was not being personal about you. I was referring to your personal view stated in message 23 Sorry for the confusion. My Apoligies!
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Post by Value Buy on Sept 18, 2014 21:54:55 GMT -5
dj, I guess I will have to go search all my old posts and find it Might take awhile. I cannot remember the thread......
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 18, 2014 21:56:17 GMT -5
Does this answer your question?
no. i just reposted the question, to save you the effort of finding it.
I believe it was fair to bring it into my thread message at the time.
no, it really wasn't, because my statement only had to do with OUR exchange.
Not everyone here answers only one message at a time and uses other messages in a discussion.
thanks for the memo.
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 18, 2014 21:58:08 GMT -5
dj, we are crossing paths without nailing the subject! I was not being personal about you. i never said you were. i am not angry, i am just pointing out that i wasn't referring to any previous exchanges. if it is not too much trouble, can you please answer the question in bold above?
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 18, 2014 21:59:16 GMT -5
dj, I guess I will have to go search all my old posts and find it Might take awhile. I cannot remember the thread...... oh. ok. never mind, i was just curious.
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Post by Value Buy on Sept 18, 2014 22:19:24 GMT -5
Ok dj, an old thread. June full time jobs plunge more than 500,000
on July 17th. After re-reading my post, it was not a ringing endorsement of your argument, but I was agreeing things were getting better
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 18, 2014 22:28:28 GMT -5
and i am not arguing that things are GREAT, really.
what i said, basically, was this:
we have replaced all of the jobs that were lost in the great recession, and nobody even cracked a smile.
did i say we had a full recovery? no did i say things were going great? not except for manufacturers like me and dem i just hoped that someone would at least EXHALE.
i am surprised by the mood on this board, that's all. and more generally, the national mood.
here is what i DO think is great: this is a very stubborn recovery. we are about 4 years into it, now, and it shows no signs of relenting.
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Post by Opti on Sept 19, 2014 4:05:39 GMT -5
and i am not arguing that things are GREAT, really. what i said, basically, was this: we have replaced all of the jobs that were lost in the great recession, and nobody even cracked a smile.
did i say we had a full recovery? no did i say things were going great? not except for manufacturers like me and dem i just hoped that someone would at least EXHALE. i am surprised by the mood on this board, that's all. and more generally, the national mood. here is what i DO think is great: this is a very stubborn recovery. we are about 4 years into it, now, and it shows no signs of relenting. If replaced you mean X jobs were lost, i.e. layoffs, out-sources, etc. and we have X new jobs, IMO that is only celebration worthy if the mix is similar.
I have cautiously watched for several decades as the US tends to a service economy and more and more well-educated folk live below the median income often with two or more jobs per person, etc. It is a slow moving recovery. If you are in road construction you might be happy. If you are a laid off teacher in NJ, you might not be yet. Budgets are still tight.
When I get a $50K or more job, I'll be more willing to be a cheer leader. Right now I am part of the under-employed professionals. There are more & better job postings. So it is looking up. But nothing like 2000, when things were pretty good for most IT folk around here. Lots of construction everywhere. New retail openings including a drugstore by me. The old one seems to be still open and they are less than 3 miles apart.
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Post by Opti on Sept 19, 2014 4:10:15 GMT -5
And Walmart is hiring! The death of the closest non-ethnic grocery store may have inspired them to do the expansion plans which are now in progress. Our Walmart food section now has more than two rows of refrigerated cases and I think by year end the meat, deli, and bakery sections will open.
Wegmans did a big remodel of their store recently. Adjusted the lay out and dropped/added products. Oh, and there were new car dealer grand openings/moves. No new building though, I know about, to house more Verizon, PSE&G, or Pharma people yet...
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Post by truthbound on Sept 19, 2014 5:00:52 GMT -5
Um, it's completely untrue. That's why it's not being reported. We have a record LOW number of people in FULL TIME work no, it is completely true. we have record employment. it is a fact, Paul. that is based on "full time equivalent jobs". and as far as full time employment, you are WAY OFF. we are only 1M jobs below the peak set in 2007 (and above ALL OTHER YEARS ON RECORD). we will absolutely break it in the next year. maybe even this year. all of this this IN SPITE OF the lowest WFP in a generation makes the fact even more amazing. but i guess anything that even suggests that things are getting better is a losing argument for conservatives. Yes typical Leftyloon position. I am employed therefore everyone else is.
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Post by Opti on Sept 19, 2014 5:17:58 GMT -5
no, it is completely true. we have record employment. it is a fact, Paul. that is based on "full time equivalent jobs". and as far as full time employment, you are WAY OFF. we are only 1M jobs below the peak set in 2007 (and above ALL OTHER YEARS ON RECORD). we will absolutely break it in the next year. maybe even this year. all of this this IN SPITE OF the lowest WFP in a generation makes the fact even more amazing. but i guess anything that even suggests that things are getting better is a losing argument for conservatives. Yes typical Leftyloon position. I am employed therefore everyone else is. Truthbound, I don't think that is what DJ is saying. Not at all.
Honestly, your stmt works well with the Right too. Yes typical Leftyloon right wing position. I am employed therefore everyone else is. (If they are not employed, iti s because they don't want it enough. If they were starving more, i.e. we cut SNAP and UE, they would be working!)
Ju
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Post by Opti on Sept 19, 2014 5:33:10 GMT -5
I realized I forgot another example of more jobs/not jobs.
The facility I work for PT, where I have been since March 2011, is fully under-way in the remodel of the old facility and walls are at least up for the first floor of the new building.
When I hired in, my old boss thought the new building might be up and running by 2014 & there would be a need for another FT receptionist. Because they finally chose to remodel in place and basically shutdown half the building while doing so, many people have lost paid work hours and many have quit or gotten a different FT job to work there PT.
For ease of math, lets pretend the old building was full up with patients at 80. So during the in place remodel which started after our annual review, spring-ish, many things have been moved in and out of patient rooms and our census has generally varied to the equivalent of 20 to 40 patients in the facility with the last few months trending more to the 20 side.
When you only get income from 20 or even 40 patients, you need less staff, plus your margins are closer to the edge. Luckily for me reception hours stay the same. Unluckily the FT receptionist came back from maternity leave AND it appears the intention is for the former rec aide to remain a FT receptionist. I thought she'd move back to recreation FT as she is a better patient whisperer than she is a front desk person. At full staffing, I've been told we had around 3 RNs per shift, 5 CNAs per shift, and probably nursing supervisors, assistant nursing... On a bad shift we have 2 RNs and 1 CNA, because RNs can do CNA tasks and not vice versa. Also probably a way to try to retain some of our nurses until the old building renovation is complete and we get it filled with patients.
There are numerous people working for the construction crews though...
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 19, 2014 9:58:27 GMT -5
no, it is completely true. we have record employment. it is a fact, Paul. that is based on "full time equivalent jobs". and as far as full time employment, you are WAY OFF. we are only 1M jobs below the peak set in 2007 (and above ALL OTHER YEARS ON RECORD). we will absolutely break it in the next year. maybe even this year. all of this this IN SPITE OF the lowest WFP in a generation makes the fact even more amazing. but i guess anything that even suggests that things are getting better is a losing argument for conservatives. Yes typical Leftyloon position. I am employed therefore everyone else is. that is not what i was suggesting at all. what i was suggesting is that we have record employment in the US. it is a fact. i was also suggesting that it was odd that people like you can't get some enjoyment out of that fact. but i understand. you are seeing the world through ash colored glasses. everything is horrible. it has to be because.....Obama?
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 19, 2014 10:00:19 GMT -5
and i am not arguing that things are GREAT, really. what i said, basically, was this: we have replaced all of the jobs that were lost in the great recession, and nobody even cracked a smile.
did i say we had a full recovery? no did i say things were going great? not except for manufacturers like me and dem i just hoped that someone would at least EXHALE. i am surprised by the mood on this board, that's all. and more generally, the national mood. here is what i DO think is great: this is a very stubborn recovery. we are about 4 years into it, now, and it shows no signs of relenting. If replaced you mean X jobs were lost, i.e. layoffs, out-sources, etc. and we have X new jobs, IMO that is only celebration worthy if the mix is similar. that might be true, but it was also true for Clinton. and it was true for Bush. job quality has been declining for a generation. but i don't remember this dour a reaction when we broke the employment record the last TWO times. so, what is different this time? Obama?
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Angel!
Senior Associate
Politics Admin
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 11:44:08 GMT -5
Posts: 10,722
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Post by Angel! on Sept 19, 2014 10:27:33 GMT -5
(They also believe the deficit is the lowest it's been in years.)...which doesn't even include the trillions in agency debt, or the asset purchases by the Fed banks. (Let them have their cookie. Smile. Try not to make eye contact.) Deficit does not equal debt, so your chart is meaningless. I am fairly certain the deficit is the lowest it has been since 2008. Actually here is an article on the subject www.forbes.com/sites/stancollender/2014/09/16/the-federal-budget-deficit-has-disappeared-really/
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