Loving a narcissist

[cktc]

Can you love a narcissist, not just romantically, but as a person?

I'm struggling to connect emotions with someone who is incapable of reciprocating (sibling). I can only relate when she is suffering, and that doesn't sit right. I don't want her to suffer, but when she is happy it is like she ceases to be a person. She is just a caricature. There is a higher morality, but it's more social than intrinsic, like Spock.

I've been struggling with this since childhood. How do you care for someone who admittedly is incapable of caring for you, or anyone?

[Phoenix84]

Sure, I don't see why you couldn't love someone like that, especially a family member.

I guess the only thing you can really do is accept them for how they are and move on.

It's not uncommon for family members to not reciprocate nice gestures. I once traveled to see my folks at my own expense, but my sister couldn't be bothered to drive 5 miles see me. It just happens.

[mmhmm]

I'm sure it would be difficult; more at some times, than at others. I'd think you'd have to keep your expectations in check and your own emotions in a box to avoid being hurt. I guess I'd just try my best to understand the other person didn't ask to be this way and take whatever precautions I needed to take to make sure I was okay. I'm really sorry you've had to deal with it.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Good question, cktc.  I have a sister just like that.  And I love her very much.  She's not easy to love - don't get me wrong - but I can be difficult to love sometimes, too.  Sometimes, I want to smack her in the head with a dead fish, but I don't love her hoping she will reciprocate.  I love her just because I love her.  Is it tough sometimes to realize I'm going to be the "giver" in our relationship every single time?  Sure it is.  But once I realized this is it, it became easier.  I don't think she is necessarily incapable of caring.  She just shows it in different ways than I do.  I hope that's the case with your sibling, too.

[cktc]

I think the hardest part is seeing how she relates to one of her daughters. I've built up a fairly thick skin over my life and I don't really care what she thinks of me, but her daughter is like this raw emotional wire, and she just doesn't get it. She cares for her as an extension of herself, physically, materially, she is covered, but she can be quite careless with her words, and it makes it more challenging.

[Deleted]

There are some really good books out there on "Toxic People" and on setting boundaries.

Many years since I've read them but they were very helpful to me. Good luck.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Maybe you could give your niece a call once in awhile, cktc.  Give her one more resource to help with those raw emotions.  It never hurts to have one more person who loves  you in your life.

[Deleted]

Sept 9, 2014 12:12:12 GMT -5 cktc said:

I think the hardest part is seeing how she relates to one of her daughters. I've built up a fairly thick skin over my life and I don't really care what she thinks of me, but her daughter is like this raw emotional wire, and she just doesn't get it. She cares for her as an extension of herself, physically, materially, she is covered, but she can be quite careless with her words, and it makes it more challenging.

"Toxic Parents" very helpful if age appropriate.

[mmhmm]

Her daughter could probably benefit a great deal by talking with a counselor experienced in dealing with the children of parents with personality disorders. Would that be a possibility? I don't know how old her daughter is, though. Age-appropriate counseling would be important.

[Lizard Queen]

Honestly, I don't think that you really can except maybe superficially.

[Spellbound454]

I have a brother who is emotionally blank. Even at our parents funeral he showed no sign of grief.

...but that's the way he is and I love him anyway. He'll never change.

[cktc]

Sept 9, 2014 12:24:47 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Her daughter could probably benefit a great deal by talking with a counselor experienced in dealing with the children of parents with personality disorders. Would that be a possibility? I don't know how old her daughter is, though. Age-appropriate counseling would be important.

She is 12 right now. I know she has had some counseling, more relating to divorce, ADHD, and an accident, although I'm sure my sister has come up because my sister found a note that was very clearly my niece trying to relate to her and express her feelings. My sister doesn't consider her lack of empathy to be a problem, just the way she is.

My niece is a pretty bright girl, and does have a lot of people who love her, so maybe I shouldn't worry.

[achelois]

Sept 9, 2014 12:31:19 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

I have a brother who is emotionally blank. Even at our parents funeral he showed no sign of grief.

...but that's the way he is and I love him anyway. He'll never change.

Does he not feel it or does he just not show it?  

My family are not big on outward emotional displays. I myself do not cry or raise my voice.  I cried once in April of 1973. It does not mean I do not feel anything, but was brought up to believe that emotions were not for the  public's consumption. 

I did not cry at my mother's funeral, either. I miss her every day, though, and she has been dead 25 years. 

[mmhmm]

Sept 9, 2014 12:54:54 GMT -5 cktc said:

Sept 9, 2014 12:24:47 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Her daughter could probably benefit a great deal by talking with a counselor experienced in dealing with the children of parents with personality disorders. Would that be a possibility? I don't know how old her daughter is, though. Age-appropriate counseling would be important.

She is 12 right now. I know she has had some counseling, more relating to divorce, ADHD, and an accident, although I'm sure my sister has come up because my sister found a note that was very clearly my niece trying to relate to her and express her feelings. My sister doesn't consider her lack of empathy to be a problem, just the way she is.

My niece is a pretty bright girl, and does have a lot of people who love her, so maybe I shouldn't worry.

I think I'd just make it clear to your niece that you're there for her, no matter what the problem might be - even if she just needs to vent. If she knows she can come to you with anything, it will be easier for you to tell if she's in need of professional help. It will also give her an outlet for her emotions with someone who understands. That's really important.

[mmhmm]

Sept 9, 2014 13:07:10 GMT -5 achelois said:

Sept 9, 2014 12:31:19 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

I have a brother who is emotionally blank. Even at our parents funeral he showed no sign of grief.

...but that's the way he is and I love him anyway. He'll never change.

Does he not feel it or does he just not show it?  

My family are not big on outward emotional displays. I myself do not cry or raise my voice.  I cried once in April of 1973. It does not mean I do not feel anything, but was brought up to believe that emotions were not for the  public's consumption. 

I did not cry at my mother's funeral, either. I miss her every day, though, and she has been dead 25 years. 

I'm the same, achelois. I am an emotional person, but I don't show those emotions publicly. If grieving, I grieve privately. Fortunately, my family understands that. They know me and know who I am inside as opposed to the persona I was taught to present for public consumption.

[achelois]

Sept 9, 2014 13:14:36 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Sept 9, 2014 13:07:10 GMT -5 achelois said:

Does he not feel it or does he just not show it?  

My family are not big on outward emotional displays. I myself do not cry or raise my voice.  I cried once in April of 1973. It does not mean I do not feel anything, but was brought up to believe that emotions were not for the  public's consumption. 

I did not cry at my mother's funeral, either. I miss her every day, though, and she has been dead 25 years. 

I'm the same, achelois. I am an emotional person, but I don't show those emotions publicly. If grieving, I grieve privately. Fortunately, my family understands that. They know me and know who I am inside as opposed to the persona I was taught to present for public consumption.

I also worked for the phone company when younger, before going into nursing. That helped. The phone company was very strict about behavior. And, of course, as a nurse, you learn to keep your mouth shut, not show panic etc., so I was ahead of the game. 

I think you can love a narcissist, but they cannot love you back. 

[CarolinaKat]

Sept 9, 2014 12:12:12 GMT -5 cktc said:

I think the hardest part is seeing how she relates to one of her daughters. I've built up a fairly thick skin over my life and I don't really care what she thinks of me, but her daughter is like this raw emotional wire, and she just doesn't get it. She cares for her as an extension of herself, physically, materially, she is covered, but she can be quite careless with her words, and it makes it more challenging.

Spend time with your neice if you can. Love her and and be a stable emotional influence on her.

[Tiny]

Sept 9, 2014 11:59:20 GMT -5 cktc said:

 

I've been struggling with this since childhood. How do you care for someone who admittedly is incapable of caring for you, or anyone?

If you are the kind of person who feels 'fondness' for things or places - like how someone 'loves' their car or some item around the house  (that's obviously incapable of caring for anything at all) - can you work up enough of those kinds of 'warm fuzzies' for your sibling?    Love is a tricky thing - there's lots of different shades and variances.   I 'love' my relatives and friends and cats - but not in the same ways... each one is different shade of 'love'.    

That's the thing with family - it's assumed everyone automatically 'loves' everyone else... not so much.  Can you muster up a variation of 'like' for your sibling?
 

[cktc]

Sept 9, 2014 13:51:55 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Sept 9, 2014 11:59:20 GMT -5 cktc said:

 

I've been struggling with this since childhood. How do you care for someone who admittedly is incapable of caring for you, or anyone?

If you are the kind of person who feels 'fondness' for things or places - like how someone 'loves' their car or some item around the house  (that's obviously incapable of caring for anything at all) - can you work up enough of those kinds of 'warm fuzzies' for your sibling?    Love is a tricky thing - there's lots of different shades and variances.   I 'love' my relatives and friends and cats - but not in the same ways... each one is different shade of 'love'.    

That's the thing with family - it's assumed everyone automatically 'loves' everyone else... not so much.  Can you muster up a variation of 'like' for your sibling?
 

That's a good point. I've always thought I love her but don't particularly like her. Thinking about what it means to love someone, and my actual feelings for her, I just wondered if I could really "love" her, and that makes me feel guilty. Perhaps I'm over thinking it. 

[mmhmm]

Sept 9, 2014 13:58:43 GMT -5 cktc said:

Sept 9, 2014 13:51:55 GMT -5 Tiny said:

If you are the kind of person who feels 'fondness' for things or places - like how someone 'loves' their car or some item around the house  (that's obviously incapable of caring for anything at all) - can you work up enough of those kinds of 'warm fuzzies' for your sibling?    Love is a tricky thing - there's lots of different shades and variances.   I 'love' my relatives and friends and cats - but not in the same ways... each one is different shade of 'love'.    

That's the thing with family - it's assumed everyone automatically 'loves' everyone else... not so much.  Can you muster up a variation of 'like' for your sibling?
 

That's a good point. I've always thought I love her but don't particularly like her. Thinking about what it means to love someone, and my actual feelings for her, I just wondered if I could really "love" her, and that makes me feel guilty. Perhaps I'm over thinking it. 

I think the "love her but not like her" idea is valid, cktc. I can remember saying exactly that to my daughter when she was in her late teens and being a real PITA. She was pitching a fit and hollering about nobody loving her and I just let her have it with that statement of fact. While it didn't work immediately, it did stick with her as I later learned, and it made her think. There's no guilt in what you're feeling. It's natural. It's hard to like someone who treats you as an object instead of a person, but you can still love them.

[Tiny]

Sept 9, 2014 13:58:43 GMT -5 cktc said:

Sept 9, 2014 13:51:55 GMT -5 Tiny said:

If you are the kind of person who feels 'fondness' for things or places - like how someone 'loves' their car or some item around the house  (that's obviously incapable of caring for anything at all) - can you work up enough of those kinds of 'warm fuzzies' for your sibling?    Love is a tricky thing - there's lots of different shades and variances.   I 'love' my relatives and friends and cats - but not in the same ways... each one is different shade of 'love'.    

That's the thing with family - it's assumed everyone automatically 'loves' everyone else... not so much.  Can you muster up a variation of 'like' for your sibling?
 

That's a good point. I've always thought I love her but don't particularly like her. Thinking about what it means to love someone, and my actual feelings for her, I just wondered if I could really "love" her, and that makes me feel guilty. Perhaps I'm over thinking it. 

I don't think you are 'overthinking' it - I think you are re-assessing your definition(s) of love/like and what part of family is 'duty and obligation' and which part of family is actual emotional attachment.

I don't think you should have feelings of 'guilt'. I can see feelings of "wishing things were different". Do other people talking about how close they are to their sibling(s) make you feel bad or left out or like you are missing out on something special you should have?   Maybe you just need to rephrase how you feel about your sister to yourself: maybe accepting that "We're not close, but I care about her (and her family)" is good enough.

[Opti]

Sept 9, 2014 11:59:20 GMT -5 cktc said:

Can you love a narcissist, not just romantically, but as a person?

I'm struggling to connect emotions with someone who is incapable of reciprocating (sibling). I can only relate when she is suffering, and that doesn't sit right. I don't want her to suffer, but when she is happy it is like she ceases to be a person. She is just a caricature. There is a higher morality, but it's more social than intrinsic, like Spock.

I've been struggling with this since childhood. How do you care for someone who admittedly is incapable of caring for you, or anyone?

FWIW, you can love anybody.

Anyone.

Now if you want love that is requited versus just the act of feeling love for a

narcissist that be a whole nother Q.

She's a full person just like you and I are. Its just her full personhood looks different than

what you think is normal, understandable or desireable.

I love my youngest sib. However, I have not spoken to her for several years for at

least two ummm errors in judgment I which includes her belief she knew more

about my marriage and how it was than I did! (She remains friends with my XH.

OK. She brought him a wedding cake cross country to my old house. Less OK.)

I may have some sort of idea of what you may or may not be going through.

I love her.

Many times I don't like her. Quite a few years I wanted to punch her 5 years into

the future hoping she'd grow several clues, but I choose to love her unconditionally.

Whether there is requited sister love between us is not up to me, so I've pretty mas uch

let that go. My conditional love for her has been a roller coaster ride since before

my divorce. My unconditional love for her has grown over the years. YMMV.

[Spellbound454]

Does he not feel it or does he just not show it?

My family are not big on outward emotional displays. I myself do not cry or raise my voice. I cried once in April of 1973. It does not mean I do not feel anything, but was brought up to believe that emotions were not for the public's consumption.

I did not cry at my mother's funeral, either. I miss her every day, though, and she has been dead 25 years.
I'm the same, achelois. I am an emotional person, but I don't show those emotions publicly. If grieving, I grieve privately. Fortunately, my family understands that. They know me and know who I am inside as opposed to the persona I was taught to present for public consumption.

He was in the Army for 20 years.. Perhaps that's got something to do with it.
I just take him as he is.  No point in lamenting something when there is little you can do about it.

Like you say. We were brought up to grieve in private as well....I think its probably more than that.
He's not a narcissist though....He's got loads of awards, he doesn't display them....He doesn't even tell anyone he has got them.

I had to wait 3 weeks to see my niece....He forgot to tell me she had been born

[cktc]

Sept 9, 2014 15:05:20 GMT -5 Tiny said:

I don't think you should have feelings of 'guilt'. I can see feelings of "wishing things were different". Do other people talking about how close they are to their sibling(s) make you feel bad or left out or like you are missing out on something special you should have?   Maybe you just need to rephrase how you feel about your sister to yourself: maybe accepting that "We're not close, but I care about her (and her family)" is good enough.

I think maybe the guilt comes from her comments. I really like your rephrase.

[Formerly SK]

I love a narcissist in that I want the best for her and I hope she's happy and has a great life.  But I can't stand to talk to her or spend any time with her. 

Relationships are complicated. 

[ArchietheDragon]

I love myself, does that count?

[billisonboard]

Sept 9, 2014 15:38:47 GMT -5 Formerly SK said:

I love a narcissist in that I want the best for her and I hope she's happy and has a great life.  But I can't stand to talk to her or spend any time with her. 

Relationships are complicated. 

The Greeks had it right in having more than one word:

Ancient Greek has four distinct words for love: agápe, éros, philía, and storgē.  en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_words_for_love