Should Atheists Criticize Religious People?

[Deleted]

Should Atheists Criticize Religious People?
September 8, 2014

We all have crutches. Religious people should be allowed theirs.

It’s tempting to try to shake religious people’s faith. After all, religion is irrational--How could anyone find comfort in a God that would allow billions of people, including infants, to die in agony of diseases like cancer. And religion has caused so much prejudice and death--from the Crusades to Radical Islam. Plus, religion often urges disempowerment: Don’t act; wait for God. Trust God above reason. For example, consider these exhortations from the Bible:

• “Be not wise in your own eyes. God shall supply all your need.” Philippians 4:19.
• “Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.” Proverbs 3:1.
• “If you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.” Matthew 17:20.

Even some leading liberal lights, who otherwise urge tolerance and decry prejudice, ridicule the religious, for example, Richard Dawkins, author of The God Delusion and the late Christopher Hitchens, author of God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything. Hitchens, for example, wrote:

• “One must state it plainly. Religion comes from the period of human prehistory where nobody…had the smallest idea what was going on. It…is a babyish attempt to meet our inescapable demand for knowledge as well as for comfort, reassurance and other infantile needs.”
• “To choose dogma and faith over doubt and experience is to throw out the ripening vintage and to reach greedily for the Kool-Aid.”
• “We keep being told that religion, whatever its imperfections, at least instills morality. On every side, there is conclusive evidence that the contrary is the case and that faith causes people to be more mean, more selfish, and perhaps above all, more stupid.”

Read the rest here: Psychology Today

[Deleted]

As an Agnostic, I think one should only "criticize" in response to being criticized.

Give what you get, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, that sort of philosophy.

Basically as long as they keep their beliefs to themselves, other people shouldn't bother them... no matter WHAT their beliefs are.

But, once they open the door by them telling everyone else how lousy their non- or other- belief is... well... then it's open season on them.

[billisonboard]

This came to mind when I read the link:
"Comfort the afflicted, and afflict the comfortable." - Finley Peter Dunne 

[Tennesseer]

I do not believe in being tolerant of the intolerant, no matter the issue. Strike my cheek once and you won't get a chance to strike it twice.

[mmhmm]

Frankly, I quit worrying about someone else's opinion of my beliefs (or, me, for that matter) a long time ago. I just don't feel the need to "get back". It's not that important to me.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

Everyone has the right to their belief - or non-belief (or at least SHOULD have the right - unfortunately, that doesn't happen in all cultures).

As long as one does not force their views onto the other, or criticize the other for their religious belief (or lack thereof) or start religious wars, there will be less conflict in this world.

That's probably a pipe-dream to expect it to happen, but it would sure cut down on a lot of strife in this world if people, societies, cultures and religious factions would just keep their faiths and beliefs to themselves, and worship amongst themselves, and let the rest of the world live and let live as they see fit.

[Deleted]

I don't think it's a question of "get back" though.

I think it's an issue of "if you can't take it, don't give it".

I don't know about anyone else here, but I quite often hear about the "war against Christianity"... well... what about the "war" that Christianity has been waging against all other beliefs... doesn't that count? Should everyone else just accept it "because... well God and Stuff, plus, you know, The Bible says so"?

When one side pushes, if there's no push back, then they gain ground.

[steff]

I'm not anti-God, but I am anti-organized religion....for me.  I think it your religious beliefs bring you comfort & peace & whatever warm & fuzzy you get from it, then great, good for you. 

It is when religion is brought into politics, laws and ways that are going to affect me or people of a certain demographic group I know or support, then I start having a problem & start to criticize.  When religion is used to degrade, belittle, or deny someone the rights others freely have, then I have a problem & start to criticize. 

Now before certain folks jump in and start screaming about religion & women in the Middle East, I'm going to add this...

I don't believe that we should just go into everywhere and enforce a different set of religious beliefs to save others (which is what the bottom line is, it's a religious war & those never end well).  I also believe that I can't change anything across the world, but I CAN vote and bring about the change I believe in here.  Yes, I put more value FOR ME & WHAT I SUPPORT to do it for people in our country first.  Others put more value into saving a child in Africa & use their missionary beliefs to do it.  Good for them, but FOR ME, that's not where I put my energy, focus & support dollars.

Again, I am NOT anti-God, but I am anti-organized religion when it is used in a negative way against others.  I've always felt that if you want to have a relationship with God, then it's between you and God.  I don't need to know about, hear about it, or have it set laws or morals.

My kiddo found a saying a few years ago that I think is perfect:  Religion should be treated like a person's genitalia, don't wave it around in public and don't go shoving it down anyone's throat. 

[zibazinski]

[zibazinski]

I miss karma

[Deleted]

I am an Agnostic/"weak" Atheist, I only criticize when folks of faith feel the need to try to convert me or rip on my viewpoint. I believe everyone should be able to believe what they want if it is not hurting anyone else.

I also believe it is in the interest of everyone to have a firm separation of church and state and do support efforts to keep it that way in the US. Some might see that as a criticism of their religion but I see it as protecting the beliefs of everyone.

[mmhmm]

I don't believe just because I don't criticize in return those criticizing me "gain ground". Silence is not, by definition, agreement. Nothing is accomplished, for me, by putting down the beliefs of someone else. If that other person thinks they're accomplishing something by putting down my lack of belief, they're laboring under a massive delusion. If someone starts preaching at me, I will (without hesitation) turn away if I can't change the subject. I'm not rejecting the person, but I do reject the proselytizing. I'm perfectly capable of deciding what I believe and I'm very comfortable with the decisions I've made in that regard.

[Artemis Windsong]

Is it better to worship G-d then find out He does not exist?

Or

Not worship G-d then find out He does exist?

[billisonboard]

Sept 9, 2014 15:54:22 GMT -5 Artemis Windsong said:

Is it better to worship G-d then find out He does not exist?

Or

Not worship G-d then find out He does exist?

You may have heard the story that is told of the great Hasidic Rav Zusia who was dying and all his students were gathered around him, praying and crying. Then Zusia himself began to cry and one of his students said, "Rav Zusia, why are you crying? You have lived a righteous life, you have raised up students, and you will be received into the world to come."
Rav Zusia answered his students, "I am crying because now I understand that, if God will ask me: Zusia, why weren't you like Moses? I'll have a ready answer - Lord, you didn't give me the potential you gave to Moses. 
If the Almighty will ask me: Zusia, why weren't you like Maimonides? I will also have a ready answer - Lord, you neither gave me the gifts nor did you place me in a position similar to Maimonides.
But the Master of the Universe will not ask me these questions. He will ask: Zusia, why weren't you like Zusia? Why didn't you fulfill the task that only Zusia could have fulfilled? It is of this question that I am in dread - and if I will be asked it, I shall have no proper response!" www.schechter.edu/facultyForum.aspx?ID=18

I, like Popeye, "yam what I yam!" If there is a G-d, I believe he can deal with that. If not, oh well. 

[Tennesseer]

Sept 9, 2014 15:54:22 GMT -5 Artemis Windsong said:

Is it better to worship G-d then find out He does not exist?

Or

Not worship G-d then find out He does exist?

If there is no God, and therefore no afterlife, how will you ever know God does not exist?

And if God does exist, and there is an afterlife, I really doubt He would mind not having been worshiped. I imagine He has a good sense of humility.

ETA: Who's God are you talking about by the way? What if you spent your whole life worshiping the wrong God or a false God? What if there is a God which humans have never even considered or know about all this time? If you worshiped a false or wrong God, and there is actually a real God and an afterlife, what do you think the real God should do with you?

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

Why would one even have to worship a god to believe it exists? Isn't the belief alone all that's needed for one to have faith? Worshiping of a God (or Gods) is a ritual or rite/ceremony that's been practiced and performed in many religions/cultures for eons upon eons. A person doesn't have to attend a structured ceremony in order to believe.

And why would you be afraid to type the word God, Artemis? Are you also afraid to say the word aloud?

[Angel!]

I really go both ways on this.  On the one hand, religious beliefs are very personal & often important & it isn't my place to criticize or try to take those away.

On the other hand, is it ok to just let people ignore science in the name of their personal beliefs? A belief in god is one thing, but when that leads you to believe the earth in 6,000 years old or that evolution is a joke then that maybe deserves confrontation.  We wouldn't let someone preach about the earth being flat or the earth being the center of the universe & then not only ignore it, but respect it because "it is their personal belief". It may be their personal belief, but it is one that science has absolutely shown to be wrong, so does it really deserve to be respected?

In school I believe they absolutely cannot ignore science in the name of religion, even if it is under cover like intelligent design.  Outside of school

I do sometimes want to confront those that seem so guilt-ridden due to their religion.  For example, it makes me sad that there are people with homosexual biological urges that feel guilt and feel there is something wrong with them & they need to be fixed.  All because they believe there is a god that has decided this is the case.

[Angel!]

Sept 9, 2014 15:54:22 GMT -5 Artemis Windsong said:

Is it better to worship G-d then find out He does not exist?

Or

Not worship G-d then find out He does exist?

If god is omnipotent & knows everything & knows me better than I know myself, then he should understand if I am a non-believer. 

And if you don't believe you could still worship & fake it, but it doesn't make you believe.  No amount of going to church is going to make me a believer in my heart.  Wouldn't god see right through that?

[billisonboard]

Sept 9, 2014 16:47:48 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

Why would one even have to worship a god to believe it exists? Isn't the belief alone all that's needed for one to have faith? Worshiping of a God (or Gods) is a ritual or rite/ceremony that's been practiced and performed in many religions/cultures for eons upon eons. A person doesn't have to attend a structured ceremony in order to believe.

And why would you be afraid to type the word God, Artemis? Are you also afraid to say the word aloud?

It is worth noting that this prohibition against erasing or defacing Names of God applies only to Names that are written in some kind of permanent form. Orthodox rabbis have held that writing on a computer is not a permanent form, thus it is not a violation to type God's Name into a computer and then backspace over it or cut and paste it, or copy and delete files with God's Name in them. However, once you print the document out, it becomes a permanent form. That is why observant Jews avoid writing a Name of God online: because there is a risk that someone else will print it out and deface it. See a 1998 discussion of the issue at The Sanctity of God's Name, Part 1: Erasing Sacred Texts from a Computer Screenif you're interested, but be aware that the lengthy article is thick with technical religious jargon, not always explained.

Normally, we avoid writing the Name by substituting letters or syllables, for example, writing "G-d" instead of "God." 
www.jewfaq.org/m/name.htm

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

And also an example of how some structured religions can often be very strict or regimented in imposing certain rules or prohibitions onto their congregation, billisonboard .

[Deleted]

Sept 9, 2014 15:54:22 GMT -5 Artemis Windsong said:

Is it better to worship G-d then find out He does not exist?

Or

Not worship G-d then find out He does exist?

It's only "better" if you worship the right one. Unfortunately no one here on this planet KNOWS, without any possibility of inaccuracy or infallibly, what God/Gods that/they is/are. Each religion believes that theirs is/are the right one/ones.

All religions (if we include Atheism as a religion) are wrong except for maybe one (and I say "maybe" because, hey they could ALL be wrong and the "right" god/gods could be one/ones we never heard of). NO ONE knows which one that is though.

[steff]

I have an uber religious gramma.  Her religion has been always been a part of her life.  Her 2nd husband was a Baptist preacher.  She never missed a chance to work religion in & to let you know she was going to be praying for you.  I never remember a weekend visit that didn't include a bible study class or a visit to an old folks home.  She's even now anxious to "go be with Jesus" since she's old & suffering with Alzheimers. 

This super religious woman has managed to come around & accept my openly gay brother without any problems.  she's even managed to make it work for her within her religious beliefs.  "God doesn't make mistakes, therefore, being gay isn't a mistake and isn't a choice and God's okay with it".  Now when she whips out a Bible verse & an I'll be praying for you, I like to tease her and tell her that since she can accept gays, then I know there's always hope for her too.  I've never once rudely shut her down because, well, she's my gramma.  lol

Once I sat her down and we talked about my quirky beliefs on religion and why I can sound so vocally against it at times, and I made it clear that it's not because I'm anti-God, she has stopped trying so hard to convert me.  She's also stopped clutching her pearls when we joke about the Flying Spaghetti Monster God, but I won't let kiddo tell her that he's a straight up Atheist.  for no other reason than she doesn't need the stress that she would turn it into.  She's just fine believing that he's just sitting on the fence right now.  She's old, frail & has Alzheimers...this one delusion won't hurt her, but could stress her for weeks. 

I really do believe that if your religious beliefs are good for you, then good for you.  doesn't mean they are good for me and doesn't make me some bad person because I don't agree.  If you lecture me about religion, go all political with your religion, use it to justify cruelty or against others...then yep, I'm gonna sound rude and be all pissy with voicing my views on religion (unless you're my gramma or a little old frail lady).  I work hard at avoiding religious discussions in real life (and politics because I live in the Bible belt...ugh). But drag me kicking and screaming into a religion discussion, don't get all whiney because I come in kicking and screaming against religion.  

[Artemis Windsong]

SL wrote:

Isn't the belief alone all that's needed for one to have faith?


And, we have the winner.  Bing, Bing, Bing.

[sesfw]

"I'm an Atheist"

"OK, I'm a Christian"

How is the weather in your area?  How are the traffic conditions?  What is on sale at the local mall?

We all face the same living conditions.  Someday each of us will face our own God or lack of.

Simply put ........ right now we don't know.

[Angel!]

Thought of one more time I will absolutely criticize religious beliefs. When someone is using god or the bible in an attempt to pass some law or public policy. Laws shouldn't be passed based on the bible any more than they should be passed based on shariah law.

[sesfw]

When someone is using god or the bible in an attempt to pass some law or public policy. Laws shouldn't be passed based on the bible any more than they should be passed based on shariah law.

While I agree with the intent of this statement ......... all over the world we have TONS of paper dedicated to enforcing the Ten Commandments in one way or another.

Especially how we treat each other.

[vonna]

Sept 10, 2014 12:25:00 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

While I agree with the intent of this statement ......... all over the world we have TONS of paper dedicated to enforcing the Ten Commandments in one way or another.

No we don't.  That's how Christians view it, but it would be just as accurate to say we have TONS of paper dedicated to enforcing the Code of Hammurabi.  For example, adultery isn't illegal.  It's a dick thing to do to your life partner, but it's not illegal.  The ten commandments is pretty clear on adultery though, and if our laws were based on them it would be illegal.  Human societies have had more or less the same laws since before Christ, and obviously Christianity, was born.

Of the ten, there are only three that I can think of that are codified into law:  murder, theft, bearing false witness. 

I don't think it takes religion to agree those are bad for society.

Now to create laws around the others, especially those that make commandments as to how to honor/worship god -- I'm glad I don' t live in a country that enforces such worship.

[weltschmerz]

Sept 9, 2014 17:11:02 GMT -5 @patstab said:

I too do not like organized religion I can believe what I wish and you can too, that is enough.

It's not enough. Not when atheists are prohibited from holding public office.

Arkansas

Article 19, section 1: “No person who denies the being of a God shall hold any office in the civil departments of this State, nor be competent to testify as a witness in any Court.”

Maryland

Article 37: “That no religious test ought ever to be required as a qualification for any office of profit or trust in this State, other than a declaration of belief in the existence of God; nor shall the Legislature prescribe any other oath of office than the oath prescribed by this Constitution.”

Mississippi

Article 14, section 265: “No person who denies the existence of a Supreme Being shall hold any office in this State.”

North Carolina

Article VI, section 8: “The following persons shall be disqualified for office: First, any person who shall deny the being of Almighty God.”




Pennsylvania

Article 1, section 4: “No person who acknowledges the being of a God and a future state of rewards and punishments shall, on account of his religious sentiments, be disqualified to hold any office or place of trust or profit under this Commonwealth.”

Note: Pennsylvania differs from the other states in that it says believers cannot be disqualified from holding office for his or her religious sentiments, but that is not extended to atheists.

South Carolina

Article XVII, section 4: “No person who denies the existence of a Supreme Being shall hold any office under this Constitution.”

Tennessee

Article IX, section 2: “No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishment, shall hold any office in the civil department of this state.”

Note: Ministers are also barred from holding office, because they “ought not to be diverted from the great duties of their functions; therefore, no minister of the Gospel, or priest of any denomination whatever, shall be eligible to a seat in either House of the Legislature,” according to article IX, section 1.

Texas

Article 1, section 4: “No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being.”

www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2014/07/08/there-are-states-where-you-technically-cant-hold-public-office-if-youre-an-atheist/

It's one thing to say `Keep your religion to yourself and we'll all be cool with it, but this is ridiculous. It's outright discrimination and it's very, very wrong.

[Deleted]

Sept 10, 2014 13:17:25 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Sept 9, 2014 17:11:02 GMT -5 @patstab said:

I too do not like organized religion I can believe what I wish and you can too, that is enough.

It's not enough. Not when atheists are prohibited from holding public office.

Arkansas

Article 19, section 1: “No person who denies the being of a God shall hold any office in the civil departments of this State, nor be competent to testify as a witness in any Court.”

Maryland

Article 37: “That no religious test ought ever to be required as a qualification for any office of profit or trust in this State, other than a declaration of belief in the existence of God; nor shall the Legislature prescribe any other oath of office than the oath prescribed by this Constitution.”

Mississippi

Article 14, section 265: “No person who denies the existence of a Supreme Being shall hold any office in this State.”

North Carolina

Article VI, section 8: “The following persons shall be disqualified for office: First, any person who shall deny the being of Almighty God.”




Pennsylvania

Article 1, section 4: “No person who acknowledges the being of a God and a future state of rewards and punishments shall, on account of his religious sentiments, be disqualified to hold any office or place of trust or profit under this Commonwealth.”

Note: Pennsylvania differs from the other states in that it says believers cannot be disqualified from holding office for his or her religious sentiments, but that is not extended to atheists.

South Carolina

Article XVII, section 4: “No person who denies the existence of a Supreme Being shall hold any office under this Constitution.”

Tennessee

Article IX, section 2: “No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishment, shall hold any office in the civil department of this state.”

Note: Ministers are also barred from holding office, because they “ought not to be diverted from the great duties of their functions; therefore, no minister of the Gospel, or priest of any denomination whatever, shall be eligible to a seat in either House of the Legislature,” according to article IX, section 1.

Texas

Article 1, section 4: “No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being.”

www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2014/07/08/there-are-states-where-you-technically-cant-hold-public-office-if-youre-an-atheist/

It's one thing to say `Keep your religion to yourself and we'll all be cool with it, but this is ridiculous. It's outright discrimination and it's very, very wrong.

From your link

"However, the Supreme Court ruled in a 1961 case that a Maryland man appointed as a notary public didn’t have to declare his belief in a supreme being to hold office, arguing it violated his rights under the First and Fourteenth Amendments. Since then, these restrictions haven’t been enforced, said Dave Muscato, a spokesman for American Atheists."

We have a lot of stupid laws still on the books.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

There was a time until not that long ago, when you had to swear on the Bible to tell the truth "So Help you God" in most court proceedings/testimonies and when giving witness statements, etc.