Gifts and family

[Annie7]

I need help with figuring out what to do for Christmas.

My DH sponsored his brother's family for green card and they have come here and are living with us. BIL went back to home country and is continuing with his job, supporting his family from there. My SIL and Niece are looking for jobs here in the US. Until my SIL and DN get jobs they cannot afford to move out to their own place. There is a nephew who is a year younger than my DS2. I doubt they will get jobs in the next couple of months. After that will be year-end/holiday season/hiring-freeze, etc. So, I estimate they'll get jobs sometime after Feb 2015.

The only expenses for them are their own personal expenses. Food money and rent is not expected of them. We will support them. They will need to buy a used car (assuming about 5K) and pay for their own insurance.

For Christmas, I normally buy a few gifts for each of my two sons and fill stockings for them. Things like a couple of xbox games for DS2, a couple of books, some expensive electronic/shoes/clothes for DS1 and a few odds and ends like toothbrushes, chocolates, etc. Nothing extravagant. Total cost per kid around $100-$150. We open them on Christmas morning.

Now, on to the situation. They will not spend money for Christmas gifts for nephew. Kind of understandable with the exchange rate being 1:60, BIL cannot support unnecessary spending from back home. However, what do I do regarding gifts for my sons? I will buy some gifts for nephew. However, it won't be at the same level as I would for my kids.

I don't like to "flaunt" my better circumstances in front of them. At the same time, I don't like to deprive my kids of what they are used to.

What would you do?

[swasat]

How old are your sons?

It seems to me the only extravagant gift you give your two sons is an electronic/shoes etc. The rest of the gift list seems to be pretty standard, not too expensive stuff.

I wouldn't change it too much. You already said you are buying a few gifts for the nephew. As long as there is not too much discrepancy between the the non big item gifts, I wouldn't think much about it. IMO, you are already being quite generous with them. And from your post it seems that your BIL and his family are taking the generosity as such, not as something thats owed to them. If they were well aware of the situation I don't think they would mind anything.

Not sure how your family dynamics works, but an understanding family member would be thankful for all the gifts that you ARE giving. Just don't flaunt it (which you already said you are very mindful about )

[Tennesseer]

I would quietly give your son a few of the more expensive gifts Christmas Eve and then for Christmas morning the less expensive gifts that near match in value what BIL/SIL are giving their kid(s).

[greeniis10]

In this case, since (I'm hoping) it will be for only this Christmas, I'd put the inexpensive items in your son's stockings that you normally get them and they can open those along with the gifts you give nephew and niece Christmas morning and then give your boys their more expensive gifts in private some other time.

[Bonny]

Can you afford to be as generous to your sons? You've got a lot of mouths to feed.

I think I would have a heart to heart with your sons (in private) and explain the situation. If your kids are in their pre-teens and older this situation should be learning experience for them that economic situations ebb and flow.

[swasat]

Aug 28, 2014 10:40:38 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

I would quietly give your son a few of the more expensive gifts Christmas Eve and then for Christmas morning the less expensive gifts that near match in value what BIL/SIL are giving their kid(s).

If the kids are young, they might spill it to their cousin. Wouldn't it cause more hurt feelings if this one does in secret?

[Tennesseer]

Aug 28, 2014 10:48:38 GMT -5 swasat said:

Aug 28, 2014 10:40:38 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

I would quietly give your son a few of the more expensive gifts Christmas Eve and then for Christmas morning the less expensive gifts that near match in value what BIL/SIL are giving their kid(s).

If the kids are young, they might spill it to their cousin. Wouldn't it cause more hurt feelings if this one does in secret?

Then ìt ìs a good teaching moment for the parents.  End the end, why short change your own kids.  I would not.

[Deleted]

Aug 28, 2014 10:52:38 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Aug 28, 2014 10:48:38 GMT -5 swasat said:

If the kids are young, they might spill it to their cousin. Wouldn't it cause more hurt feelings if this one does in secret?

Then ìt ìs a good teaching moment for the parents.  End the end, why short change your own kids.  I would not.

if you have friends/realtives staying with you for a few days at xmas time would you change what you're doing with your kids if they do something different?  for instance a lot of people on YM only do one gift from Santa.  I wouldn't NOT give my kids all of their gifts and just give them one because someone staying with us did something different

[swasat]

Aug 28, 2014 10:54:49 GMT -5 @singlemominmd said:

Aug 28, 2014 10:52:38 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Then ìt ìs a good teaching moment for the parents.  End the end, why short change your own kids.  I would not.

if you have friends/realtives staying with you for a few days at xmas time would you change what you're doing with your kids if they do something different?  for instance a lot of people on YM only do one gift from Santa.  I wouldn't NOT give my kids all of their gifts and just give them one because someone staying with us did something different

Thats exactly what I said. Give them the gifts but give them in the open.

Why hide it? It only creates more hurt feelings if it comes out later. She is only giving maybe one big gift. Just give it the way she usually does. No explanation needed to anyone.

[Annie7]

Thanks for the feedback.

DS1 is 19 and DS2 is 14. Nephew is 13 and Niece is 22.

I think I can manage to keep the level of gifts for my sons since it's not too much.

I'm torn in two. On the one hand, while it is understandable that nephew does not get as expensive gifts as my sons, it could still hurt him. He's a kid, doesn't need to be hurt. It is a teachable moment for him but I don't know if his mother/sister would teach him the correct lesson. It could be put out as we are discriminating. On the other hand, I'm already inconveniencing my kids by not doing as much take out/dine out as we normally do; we didn't go anywhere/do anything during the summer. Why should they have to suffer more for something they didn't ask for? Also, I only have a couple of years with DS1 before he's out on his own after college. I don't want to miss making good memories with him.

While SIL and DNiece do say they feel bad that they are troubling us and being a burden, the actions don't always match the words. SIL comes out of their room around 11 am when my Mom (who also lives with me - a big family ) has finished about 90% of the cooking and asks if she can help. She claims she's up but studying. She could have come out and helped my Mom with the cooking. I'm working from home and am very busy to help Mom. I help when I can in the evenings and weekends. She has to be "invited" for every meal even though they can hear the preparations being made for it like plates being put on the table, etc. Lots of little things to spell out, but I sometimes feel taken advantage of.

They are looking for jobs, but are not prepared to spend the money for training or other things. They will spend money on chocolate milk/chobani yogurt/pepsi, etc. I don't keep soda in the house since we only have them when we have parties. They have access to milk and yogurt from my fridge. Yet, they went and spent money on that, but were hesitant to spend money to go to a meetup where they could meet potential employers and hand out their resumes. My DH paid for their entry fee to the meetup. SIL wants to get as much money from her husband as possible and doesn't seem to want to work (a lot of background story there - not relevant here). So, I think she has it great here - no house work, no outside work, all needs taken care of. That's where my resentment comes in

I will have to wait and see where things go I guess and figure out what to do as the time comes closer. Thanks again for your replies.

[toomuchreality]

Aug 28, 2014 10:25:20 GMT -5 Annie7 said:

I need help with figuring out what to do for Christmas.

My DH sponsored his brother's family for green card and they have come here and are living with us. BIL went back to home country and is continuing with his job, supporting his family from there. My SIL and Niece are looking for jobs here in the US. Until my SIL and DN get jobs they cannot afford to move out to their own place. There is a nephew who is a year younger than my DS2. I doubt they will get jobs in the next couple of months. After that will be year-end/holiday season/hiring-freeze, etc. So, I estimate they'll get jobs sometime after Feb 2015.

The only expenses for them are their own personal expenses. Food money and rent is not expected of them. We will support them. They will need to buy a used car (assuming about 5K) and pay for their own insurance.

For Christmas, I normally buy a few gifts for each of my two sons and fill stockings for them. Things like a couple of xbox games for DS2, a couple of books, some expensive electronic/shoes/clothes for DS1 and a few odds and ends like toothbrushes, chocolates, etc. Nothing extravagant. Total cost per kid around $100-$150. We open them on Christmas morning.

Now, on to the situation. They will not spend money for Christmas gifts for nephew. Kind of understandable with the exchange rate being 1:60, BIL cannot support unnecessary spending from back home. However, what do I do regarding gifts for my sons? I will buy some gifts for nephew. However, it won't be at the same level as I would for my kids.

I don't like to "flaunt" my better circumstances in front of them. At the same time, I don't like to deprive my kids of what they are used to.

What would you do?

People have mentioned making this a learning experience. Personally, I would make/give your nephew a stocking too. Maybe you can find some electronic games or some other less expensive items to put in it. I'm not saying they have to be equal, but I would make them appear to be close to the same, unless you feel like explaining why Santa forgot "Bobby".
The situation in your home is different this year. That will be reflected in the other things you have and do. There's nothing wrong with your kids learning from this. I think it sounds like a good thing.



I guess it depends on what message you want your sons, and others to get from what you do.


BTW I think it's nice of you to help them, the way you are. That's great. Christmas is part of the deal, in my opinion.

(It would be easier, if we knew the ages of the children involved.)

Good luck! I hope it works out for you.


 

[toomuchreality]

Oh, I just read your last post Annie7.  Sorry, it wasn't there when I was posting my reply.

You've got a tricky situation to work through. I don't envy you.

Good luck!

[zibazinski]

Whoa, if I'm living off people, I am busting my ass to do everything I can in appreciation. They should be cleaning and laundrying and anything they can do in gratitude. Are you living in MIL house or is she living off you, too? 

[zibazinski]

Do they speak English? Not that that matters much anymore but there's jobs out there. Fast food, nanny/babysitter, pet sitting. Time to put foot down. Past time.

[Deleted]

Aug 28, 2014 11:52:52 GMT -5 Annie7 said:

Thanks for the feedback.

DS1 is 19 and DS2 is 14. Nephew is 13 and Niece is 22.

I think I can manage to keep the level of gifts for my sons since it's not too much.

I'm torn in two. On the one hand, while it is understandable that nephew does not get as expensive gifts as my sons, it could still hurt him. He's a kid, doesn't need to be hurt. It is a teachable moment for him but I don't know if his mother/sister would teach him the correct lesson. It could be put out as we are discriminating. On the other hand, I'm already inconveniencing my kids by not doing as much take out/dine out as we normally do; we didn't go anywhere/do anything during the summer. Why should they have to suffer more for something they didn't ask for? Also, I only have a couple of years with DS1 before he's out on his own after college. I don't want to miss making good memories with him.

While SIL and DNiece do say they feel bad that they are troubling us and being a burden, the actions don't always match the words. SIL comes out of their room around 11 am when my Mom (who also lives with me - a big family ) has finished about 90% of the cooking and asks if she can help. She claims she's up but studying. She could have come out and helped my Mom with the cooking. I'm working from home and am very busy to help Mom. I help when I can in the evenings and weekends. She has to be "invited" for every meal even though they can hear the preparations being made for it like plates being put on the table, etc. Lots of little things to spell out, but I sometimes feel taken advantage of.

They are looking for jobs, but are not prepared to spend the money for training or other things. They will spend money on chocolate milk/chobani yogurt/pepsi, etc. I don't keep soda in the house since we only have them when we have parties. They have access to milk and yogurt from my fridge. Yet, they went and spent money on that, but were hesitant to spend money to go to a meetup where they could meet potential employers and hand out their resumes. My DH paid for their entry fee to the meetup. SIL wants to get as much money from her husband as possible and doesn't seem to want to work (a lot of background story there - not relevant here). So, I think she has it great here - no house work, no outside work, all needs taken care of. That's where my resentment comes in

I will have to wait and see where things go I guess and figure out what to do as the time comes closer. Thanks again for your replies.

I think a responsibility chart is in order and I also think you need to ask them to contribute to household costs.

[nogooddeed]

Aug 28, 2014 11:52:52 GMT -5 Annie7 said:

Thanks for the feedback.

DS1 is 19 and DS2 is 14. Nephew is 13 and Niece is 22.

I think I can manage to keep the level of gifts for my sons since it's not too much.

I'm torn in two. On the one hand, while it is understandable that nephew does not get as expensive gifts as my sons, it could still hurt him. He's a kid, doesn't need to be hurt. It is a teachable moment for him but I don't know if his mother/sister would teach him the correct lesson. It could be put out as we are discriminating. On the other hand, I'm already inconveniencing my kids by not doing as much take out/dine out as we normally do; we didn't go anywhere/do anything during the summer. Why should they have to suffer more for something they didn't ask for? Also, I only have a couple of years with DS1 before he's out on his own after college. I don't want to miss making good memories with him.

While SIL and DNiece do say they feel bad that they are troubling us and being a burden, the actions don't always match the words. SIL comes out of their room around 11 am when my Mom (who also lives with me - a big family ) has finished about 90% of the cooking and asks if she can help. She claims she's up but studying. She could have come out and helped my Mom with the cooking. I'm working from home and am very busy to help Mom. I help when I can in the evenings and weekends. She has to be "invited" for every meal even though they can hear the preparations being made for it like plates being put on the table, etc. Lots of little things to spell out, but I sometimes feel taken advantage of.

They are looking for jobs, but are not prepared to spend the money for training or other things. They will spend money on chocolate milk/chobani yogurt/pepsi, etc. I don't keep soda in the house since we only have them when we have parties. They have access to milk and yogurt from my fridge. Yet, they went and spent money on that, but were hesitant to spend money to go to a meetup where they could meet potential employers and hand out their resumes. My DH paid for their entry fee to the meetup. SIL wants to get as much money from her husband as possible and doesn't seem to want to work (a lot of background story there - not relevant here). So, I think she has it great here - no house work, no outside work, all needs taken care of. That's where my resentment comes in

I will have to wait and see where things go I guess and figure out what to do as the time comes closer. Thanks again for your replies.

Sounds like it might be time for a deadline for them to get jobs and move out. Or move back to the home country with BIL.

[zibazinski]

Like 30 days, period. 

[swasat]

I have never ever understood how people see relations taking advantage of them and why they keep quiet.....

Its your house, your money that you are spending. If something bothers you, even if its supposedly minor ( and no, IMO staying in till 11 am and expecting to be invited for dinner made by others is not minor) , why not speak up?

Keeping good relationships is one thing, taking crap to maintain THOSE good relationships is quite another. You are setting a precedent here. So beware, it might come to bite you in the back later.

[cktc]

My concern during holidays is that the gifts I am giving will be as thoughtful as the ones I’m receiving. I don’t expect to receive the same amount or dollar value as anyone else opening gifts.

I’d get the niece a nice outfit for interviewing, and the nephew some gift cards to movie theaters, fast food places, maybe some clothes. As a former poor kid wanting to hang out with friends, those are more important than being the one who owns the xbox and games.

[Annie7]

Zib,

It's my Mom who's now living with me. I did 7 years with MIL and FIL living with us and that was hell. It's always been us supporting others. My parents though never took anything from us. When my Dad passed away he left a lot of business debt. My Mom never asked for help from me (or my brother). She managed to pay off the debts using the assets that Dad had made. Now she's very wealthy after selling the assets. She manages her income well. She pays for her own things here too. And she cooks for us and makes extra stuff for her grandsons  So, she's not really mooching off of us. It's a big help to me to have her here - emotionally and materially.

My ILs on the other hand are completely opposite. When they were here, if we invited them to go watch a game, FIL would ask us to give him the cash for the tickets instead since he didn't want to go. MIL would discriminate with what she'd cook for me vs her son (my husband) - insist I eat leftovers and then make fresh food for her son, etc. No boundaries.

Regarding some charity paying for nephew's gifts - they are not destitute. BIL makes very good money (he's the regional manager for a mechanical company). SIL was working as a teacher and she had saved some money. They have money, they just don't want to spend it on things that they think they can get us to pay if they refuse. My DH is a softie - if they won't spend, he'll give them his (our) money so that they'll have whatever it is that DH thinks they should have. Just before coming to US, SIL bought a $600 smart phone, Niece also bought a new phone. Nephew has a tablet. My YDS who is a year older than nephew only got a smartphone on his birthday in July of this year and doesn't have a tablet. So, they are not poor. Just have skewed priorities. I don't think the money from a charity should be spent on them - there are more deserving people out there.

Sorry, didn't mean to type a novel here . Just frustrated and stressed out.

[Deleted]

I think you need to give them a deadline for moving out.  but it sounds like your DH is part of the problem so you're going to need to decide what you want to do if he doesn't get on board.

[snapdragon]

This sounds rough all around.

I had my Mom living with me for 3+ years...I finally had to put my foot down and make her go. I just got to the point that I could not deal emotionally or financially any more. This will create stress no matter what you do. 

Also - how is your DH dealing with this? Is he around to see what is going on or is he always at work and/or distant? Is having them living with you causing issues in your marriage or family life? You might want to feel him out about how he is with 3 more people living with him.

Good luck.

 

[cktc]

Aug 28, 2014 11:52:52 GMT -5 Annie7 said:

While SIL and DNiece do say they feel bad that they are troubling us and being a burden, the actions don't always match the words. SIL comes out of their room around 11 am when my Mom (who also lives with me - a big family ) has finished about 90% of the cooking and asks if she can help. She claims she's up but studying. She could have come out and helped my Mom with the cooking. I'm working from home and am very busy to help Mom. I help when I can in the evenings and weekends. She has to be "invited" for every meal even though they can hear the preparations being made for it like plates being put on the table, etc. Lots of little things to spell out, but I sometimes feel taken advantage of.

Why not ask them to help? Specific things, on the spot. Some people don't want to put their money where their mouth is, but others don't know how. If you ask and they always have excuses, they will at least quit bluffing.

[zibazinski]

Don't invite her. Let her sit and play her games. Moochers get hungry, they'll come to the table. Probably in a huff and time to tell her to take the attitude and go back to room with it. You, I hope, wouldn't tolerate this disrespect from your sons, why should you from mooches? She/they need to be gone WAY before Christmas.  Either on their own or back to old country.

[Deleted]

My biggest problem would be MY mom having to cook for all those people. I think somebody needs to talk to them about helping around the house, cleaning, cooking etc. they are getting way too comfortable.

[zibazinski]

I'm assuming this is how her mom earns her "keep." These moochers do nothing.

[zibazinski]

Your mom is doing this to be nice? Her lack of spine has filtered down, I see. If I saw my daughter being used and disrespected, I'd be putting ex lax in their food if I cooked for them. It wouldn't get that far. I'm amazed its gone this far. You, like a PP said, have way more serious problems than Christmas. .

[Annie7]

Aug 28, 2014 12:21:57 GMT -5 @singlemominmd said:

I think you need to give them a deadline for moving out.  but it sounds like your DH is part of the problem so you're going to need to decide what you want to do if he doesn't get on board.

This is it in a nutshell. Without him onboard, I am stuck unless I give ultimatums. DH is the kind who wants to help everyone around him. However, he won't do the actual work. He has all the great ideas, I have to bring them to fruition. And I don't get acknowledged for doing that. Rather I'm criticized for not having the ideas in the first place.

DH's family is dysfunctional. They don't communicate well. Everyone hides things from one another and has secrets. SIL claims she didn't know of any of the plans until BIL told her a few months before coming here that she would be staying here. I can kind-of believe that since DH wouldn't discuss anything with me either until a couple of months before they arrived. SIL claims BIL gives all the money to FIL/MIL so she wants to live off of BIL's money here and not work. I can kind of understand that since DH is also the same way. If there is money saved he'll send it to his parents while I am living with old appliances, flooring, etc.

From the beginning I was cautioning DH that it would take them well into Feb before they got jobs. DH would yell at me that I was being negative, that they would get jobs within a month or two. I was the one who would ask him what are the plans for their arrival, stay, etc. I was told he doesn't know and can't plan everything. That they are accommodating and will go with the flow. DH and BIL were focused on getting a low income house as the priority. I pointed out that a car was the first priority. In NJ you can't get anywhere without a car. So, if they want to get jobs, they need a car. We can't be driving them around all the time. Finally they accepted that. They are waiting for the SSN to get a license and then buy a car. While I'd love to get them out of our house, if "I" have to pay their rent, for now, I'd rather they get jobs first and support themselves.

Regarding giving them a deadline - DH feels responsible and wants nephew to have a good education. So, he wants them to stay here in US. If I insist on them moving out, we'll be paying the rent. DH will say that with the exchange rate of 1:60 BIL will not be able to afford paying for it. BIL can rent out the house they lived in since he's anyway staying with his parents now. But I guess I am small minded for pointing that out and not allowing nephew and niece to have a better future. I had brought up all these questions even before they arrived in US. But was shut down.

I guess if DH was more on my side, I wouldn't feel so frustrated. He also works from home (we are both in IT). He just rides rough-shed over them and walks away. No one stands up to him like I do so he gets annoyed with me. He doesn't realize that all his relatives pretend to agree with him to manipulate him and do what they want behind his back. He is frustrated with them too, but as a man it does not affect him like it does me.

I have to drive my DS2 around to and from his soccer practices. I carpool, but even with that, I have to do these things during work hours (school has no consideration for working parents - practices are from 11 am - 1pm). Luckily my manager is flexible enough that he allows me to do this. But now, I have to drive these three people around for their appointments too. DH seems to think that I'm the primary and if I cannot he will do it. I tell him he's the primary, they are his relatives first and only if he can't I will. But it's very frustrating when he doesn't seem to have any time for me or my concerns but pushes all these on me.

To add a very big twist to this - DH also ended his contract last week and is looking for a new job. So, currently I'm the only one working. I have full confidence he'll find something in a month or so. I'm not worried about that. He was anyway paid on a 2 month backlog basis, so he'll have money coming in for the next couple of months.

He's now considering jobs all over US. I had told him earlier that since it would be only DS2 I would have to shuttle around, I was ok with it. Now, with these three people, I just told him I couldn't handle it. He said he'll have them take a taxi. I told him they wouldn't pay for it. He says he'll get better salary elsewhere and then he can pay for the taxi  Why doesn't he understand that it would mean there's no incentive for SIL to get her license and drive? How many of these things do I fight with DH about? He doesn't even have time to talk to me about essential things that impact me/our sons. He claims he is studying for interviews/networking/finding them jobs, etc. Essentially, my job/my needs have less priority than his.

I WILL be talking to SIL this weekend and have her do some work around the house. Wish me luck. I will have to live with this situation for the next few months. I have to do restart the "start as you mean to go on" thing and set expectations.

[toomuchreality]

Aug 28, 2014 12:18:47 GMT -5 Annie7 said:

Zib,

It's my Mom who's now living with me. I did 7 years with MIL and FIL living with us and that was hell. It's always been us supporting others. My parents though never took anything from us. When my Dad passed away he left a lot of business debt. My Mom never asked for help from me (or my brother). She managed to pay off the debts using the assets that Dad had made. Now she's very wealthy after selling the assets. She manages her income well. She pays for her own things here too. And she cooks for us and makes extra stuff for her grandsons  So, she's not really mooching off of us. It's a big help to me to have her here - emotionally and materially.

My ILs on the other hand are completely opposite. When they were here, if we invited them to go watch a game, FIL would ask us to give him the cash for the tickets instead since he didn't want to go. MIL would discriminate with what she'd cook for me vs her son (my husband) - insist I eat leftovers and then make fresh food for her son, etc. No boundaries.

Regarding some charity paying for nephew's gifts - they are not destitute. BIL makes very good money (he's the regional manager for a mechanical company). SIL was working as a teacher and she had saved some money. They have money, they just don't want to spend it on things that they think they can get us to pay if they refuse. My DH is a softie - if they won't spend, he'll give them his (our) money so that they'll have whatever it is that DH thinks they should have. Just before coming to US, SIL bought a $600 smart phone, Niece also bought a new phone. Nephew has a tablet. My YDS who is a year older than nephew only got a smartphone on his birthday in July of this year and doesn't have a tablet. So, they are not poor. Just have skewed priorities. I don't think the money from a charity should be spent on them - there are more deserving people out there.

Sorry, didn't mean to type a novel here . Just frustrated and stressed out.

It's not a novel. 
It actually helps us understand the situation, a lot more. I'm glad you posted it.

Sorry you are having to deal with it though. No wonder you are stressed!
At some point you have to realize that what you are doing is enabling them, not helping them. There's a difference. The sooner the better. Your health is important too!

I don't understand people like this... 

Question- Does the son do things to help around the house, or he like the others? I might take my que from that, when it comes to gifts. But not the things from Santa. -Hope that makes sense!

Take care of you

[zibazinski]

You're up a huge creek without a paddle. Can you support yourself and your sons if you had to? Because if I were being treated that way, I'd take my children and go elsewhere and let him deal with his family. Will your mom take you in? No wonder his family is disrespectful, he is disrespectful. Cultural my ass. That's the excuse DFs son in law uses for being a lazy disinterested parent. Because his parents, South Africans, sent him to boarding school. Well, jerkoff, this ain't South Africa and your kids live with you. Be a frickin parent to them.