kent
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Post by kent on Aug 26, 2014 10:53:16 GMT -5
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Aug 26, 2014 12:56:28 GMT -5
My problem has always been my own interpretation of what the second amendment was meant for and I admit my interpretation may have been the wrong one after reading all the back and forth over the recent years..
I always thought that it meant, because of the times , back in the day..the beginning of our country as a nation..when the major weapon for a nations army, armed forces , was the musket, bayonet...in small measures rifles..that this amendment was to allow citizens..at the time the new nation did not have a large standing Army..and it seemed it , large professional standing army wasn't really wanted..A trained militia was what was wanted formed by average fit citizens ..and this amendment allowed , legally, these citizens to keep this weapon at home with no questions asked and to be practiced with as wanted and needed... Artillery would be in the hands of the States or Nation...though it was quickly realized a professional Officer corps was needed still, thus the establishment of West Point ..small standing military or not, trained professional Officers still needed..
Yet it seems that for so many, the second amendment is there to protect against a government gone bad so citizens could rally against, revolt, violently change it if such a government was deemed bad..a revelution , though I don't know what or who would determine when such a thing..bad government needed changing..
If you go by the present happenings..modern governments in our country, it seems that all of them have been charged with being bad and in need of violent change..Roosevelt on up wards and possible even before that..Definily our latest and the one before that too...
I don't believe that was the purpose of the second amendment but as I said, I could be wrong in my interpretation of....If any here can point out where this was discussed and actually the reason put forth for the amendment I would love to have it so posted for my education...
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 26, 2014 16:58:22 GMT -5
I think if you've already passed the required tests/criteria for owning a gun, making you wait is silly. I waited a long time for my CCP and my TSA thing. I have no issue with either of those wait times. But if I had to do t over and over again, not happy.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Aug 26, 2014 17:07:28 GMT -5
The second amendment is interesting. If you read historical letters and whatnot it seems pretty clear that part of the intent was to have a citizenry as well armed as military troops of the time, that were organized into local militias that could be called on in times of war, as well as having the ability to overthrow our own government if it overstepped its bounds and needed to be overthrown. At the time there was essentially no difference between a military weapon and a hunting weapon. They were both front loading single shot muskets, that were heavy, slow to fire, and not very accurate. They apparently didn't imagine how quickly weapons would evolve, or they honestly didn't see a problem with the average citizen owning whatever fancy new weapon the military dreamed up. Going by intent, I should be able to own a fully armed Apache gunship, since the military gets them, and a potential invading foreign power will also have them, or something similar.
However, nobody, even gun right's activists, really want every Tom, Dick, and Harry being able to buy high end military weapons. Honestly I think we're overdue to rewrite the second amendment and clearly specify intent, and scope. The founding fathers were pretty smart, but I don't think they could envision a world where I can put a MOAB on a drone and level a city several states away from my basement.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2014 18:40:27 GMT -5
I don't think a 10 day wait is unconstitutional so much as it's stupid if the person is already vetted (CCP, current owner, whatever).
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Aug 26, 2014 21:02:45 GMT -5
I don't think a 10 day wait is unconstitutional so much as it's stupid if the person is already vetted (CCP, current owner, whatever). I don't either- it is just arbitrary and senseless.
I think the waiting period is ok for new purchasers- maybe not 10 days- but a day or two is reasonable to make sure they can legally purchase and to maybe stop some pissed off person that needs a gun right away from getting one.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Aug 30, 2014 12:48:06 GMT -5
I don't think a 10 day wait is unconstitutional so much as it's stupid if the person is already vetted (CCP, current owner, whatever). I don't either- it is just arbitrary and senseless.
I think the waiting period is ok for new purchasers- maybe not 10 days- but a day or two is reasonable to make sure they can legally purchase and to maybe stop some pissed off person that needs a gun right away from getting one.
Cain killed Abel with a rock. Murder isn't a gun problem, it's a matter of the heart. I have always been dubious about any waiting period at all for anyone. And as far as "vetting" people- I'm not in favor of that, either, other than a criminal record, or lack of US citizenship.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Aug 30, 2014 13:54:17 GMT -5
I don't either- it is just arbitrary and senseless.
I think the waiting period is ok for new purchasers- maybe not 10 days- but a day or two is reasonable to make sure they can legally purchase and to maybe stop some pissed off person that needs a gun right away from getting one.
Cain killed Abel with a rock. Murder isn't a gun problem, it's a matter of the heart. I have always been dubious about any waiting period at all for anyone. And as far as "vetting" people- I'm not in favor of that, either, other than a criminal record, or lack of US citizenship. Some people don't have the sack to use a rock or knife- and maybe some people just got fired from their job and want to take out a few coworkers- who knows- what harm does a 24 hour waiting period cause anyone?
Also why do you think it would be ok to ban selling guns to legal residents? We don't do that- are you suggesting a change in policy?
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Aug 30, 2014 16:08:06 GMT -5
Cain killed Abel with a rock. Murder isn't a gun problem, it's a matter of the heart. I have always been dubious about any waiting period at all for anyone. And as far as "vetting" people- I'm not in favor of that, either, other than a criminal record, or lack of US citizenship. Some people don't have the sack to use a rock or knife- and maybe some people just got fired from their job and want to take out a few coworkers- who knows- what harm does a 24 hour waiting period cause anyone?
Also why do you think it would be ok to ban selling guns to legal residents? We don't do that- are you suggesting a change in policy?
You do not have to be in the intended victim's face to shoot them. It can be done at any distance within range of the weapon's capability. Using a rock or a knife would require the intended killer to get up close and personal with their victim. The rock or knife can always be turned against the intended killer. Shooting is the cowardly way out. Little to no danger of being personally injured.
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Aug 30, 2014 17:07:15 GMT -5
I thought the wait period was so crazy people had time to rethink their intentions and/or calm down. No?
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Aug 30, 2014 17:17:20 GMT -5
Right- very impulsive people not in their right mind- so maybe what down the road would turn into a temporary insanity defense doesn't happen. Just putting the brakes on one potential family annihilator or disgruntled employee is worth 24 hours worth of delay IMO. What a huge inconvenience
And in a real sense it isn't targeting gun owners anyway- it is targeting people that never thought about a gun but suddenly think they need one to solve a problem.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Aug 30, 2014 19:39:58 GMT -5
That, and I think it takes a few days to get the results of the background check for states that require it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2014 20:04:49 GMT -5
That, and I think it takes a few days to get the results of the background check for states that require it. A background check can be run in about 5 minutes nowadays. Last year I bought a SWEET pistol (a Smith & Wesson "Governor") that shoots .410 2 1/2" (shotgun shells), .45 ACP, .45 Colt. My full check took less time than it took me to fill out the paperwork to allow it.
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kent
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Post by kent on Aug 30, 2014 20:50:48 GMT -5
I absolutely agree.
"A background check can be run in about 5 minutes nowadays."
Even here in CA it only takes few minutes to run a background check.
There's a new gun, fishing and other stuff store a couple of miles from here that just opened yesterday and even though they haven't stocked all the shelves yet (all they had out were long guns - maybe 250 of them) the place had a LOT of traffic. The store and indoor range cover 60,000 sq. ft. I didn't see a single protestor but I'm sure they will be there for the "Grand Opening" on September 26th - wouldn't want to miss that.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Aug 30, 2014 21:06:01 GMT -5
Didn't realize it was so quick these days. 10 days does seem pretty excessive then. I guess I can see the argument for a day or two just to keep people from doing something drastic following a firing, divorce, or whatever.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2014 21:40:40 GMT -5
I think if you've already passed the required tests/criteria for owning a gun, making you wait is silly. I waited a long time for my CCP and my TSA thing. I have no issue with either of those wait times. But if I had to do t over and over again, not happy. I forget, but isn't there a fee imposed each time?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2014 21:45:30 GMT -5
I thought the wait period was so crazy people had time to rethink their intentions and/or calm down. No? I think that when someone is wanting to go off the deep end, they will find other ways of getting a gun, one that can't be traced back to them.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 31, 2014 9:52:38 GMT -5
I think if you've already passed the required tests/criteria for owning a gun, making you wait is silly. I waited a long time for my CCP and my TSA thing. I have no issue with either of those wait times. But if I had to do t over and over again, not happy. I forget, but isn't there a fee imposed each time? There are fees for both of those items. I have no issue with an expiration date. Maybe I've died, gone insane, whatever, but charging me again and again. Not happy with that idea.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 31, 2014 10:30:41 GMT -5
I thought the wait period was so crazy people had time to rethink their intentions and/or calm down. No? I think that when someone is wanting to go off the deep end, they will find other ways of getting a gun, one that can't be traced back to them. That might be true in some cases, lonewolf, but I doubt it would be in most. I could go off the deep end tomorrow. So could you, or anyone else. Would you know where to go to get a gun with no questions asked (if there were restrictive laws in place)? I would not.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2014 10:55:50 GMT -5
I think that when someone is wanting to go off the deep end, they will find other ways of getting a gun, one that can't be traced back to them. That might be true in some cases, lonewolf, but I doubt it would be in most. I could go off the deep end tomorrow. So could you, or anyone else. Would you know where to go to get a gun with no questions asked (if there were restrictive laws in place)? I would not. We must live in different types of communities.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 31, 2014 10:58:14 GMT -5
That might be true in some cases, lonewolf, but I doubt it would be in most. I could go off the deep end tomorrow. So could you, or anyone else. Would you know where to go to get a gun with no questions asked (if there were restrictive laws in place)? I would not. We must live in different types of communities. We might do. Thing is, while you might know where to go to get an illegal gun, I would not and there are many, many others who would not. Those who live in the suburbs, which is a lot of the population, are less likely to know.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2014 11:04:10 GMT -5
We must live in different types of communities. We might do. Thing is, while you might know where to go to get an illegal gun, I would not and there are many, many others who would not. Those who live in the suburbs, which is a lot of the population, are less likely to know. The problem is that those who do know and are willing to act on this knowledge are the ones we need protection from. A very few can cause a whole lot of damage. Gun laws mean nothing to them.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 31, 2014 11:10:30 GMT -5
We might do. Thing is, while you might know where to go to get an illegal gun, I would not and there are many, many others who would not. Those who live in the suburbs, which is a lot of the population, are less likely to know. The problem is that those who do know and are willing to act on this knowledge are the ones we need protection from. A very few can cause a whole lot of damage. Gun laws mean nothing to them. You'll never stop it all, no matter what you do; however, those who go off the deep end and don't know where to go to get an illegal gun will be, at least, slowed down. They're just as capable of doing something hideous as those who do know how to get an illegal gun. Going off the deep end means just that, and it can happen to anyone.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2014 11:14:40 GMT -5
The problem is that those who do know and are willing to act on this knowledge are the ones we need protection from. A very few can cause a whole lot of damage. Gun laws mean nothing to them. You'll never stop it all, no matter what you do; however, those who go off the deep end and don't know where to go to get an illegal gun will be, at least, slowed down. They're just as capable of doing something hideous as those who do know how to get an illegal gun. Going off the deep end means just that, and it can happen to anyone. True, they will be slowed down when it comes to getting a gun. They will merely find another way to punish society for the wrongs that they feel have been done to them.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 31, 2014 11:16:34 GMT -5
You'll never stop it all, no matter what you do; however, those who go off the deep end and don't know where to go to get an illegal gun will be, at least, slowed down. They're just as capable of doing something hideous as those who do know how to get an illegal gun. Going off the deep end means just that, and it can happen to anyone. True, they will be slowed down when it comes to getting a gun. They will merely find another way to punish society for the wrongs that they feel have been done to them. As I said, you'll never stop it all. Still, if they find a way that doesn't involve slaughtering multitudes of people, I'll be a lot happier with that.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Aug 31, 2014 13:04:19 GMT -5
Search your local Craigslist. Always guns for sale by private parties. They won't ask for ID or a background check. Email them from a junk account on an open wifi network, any McDonald's parking lot will do. No cameras out there, but the wifi signal goes outside the building. Give the person a fake name when you buy the weapon, and pay cash. Untraceable weapon in under a day. Just need a laptop and some cash.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 31, 2014 13:16:10 GMT -5
Search your local Craigslist. Always guns for sale by private parties. They won't ask for ID or a background check. Email them from a junk account on an open wifi network, any McDonald's parking lot will do. No cameras out there, but the wifi signal goes outside the building. Give the person a fake name when you buy the weapon, and pay cash. Untraceable weapon in under a day. Just need a laptop and some cash. I must admit, that would never occur to me. I'd be a lousy criminal. It sure wouldn't occur to me if I'd gone off the deep end!
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Aug 31, 2014 13:33:14 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2014 13:38:00 GMT -5
Search your local Craigslist. Always guns for sale by private parties. They won't ask for ID or a background check. Email them from a junk account on an open wifi network, any McDonald's parking lot will do. No cameras out there, but the wifi signal goes outside the building. Give the person a fake name when you buy the weapon, and pay cash. Untraceable weapon in under a day. Just need a laptop and some cash. I must admit, that would never occur to me. I'd be a lousy criminal. It sure wouldn't occur to me if I'd gone off the deep end! Me neither. Using a gun isn't the way I'd handle such a situation. Now, butcher knives....that's another story.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 31, 2014 13:39:17 GMT -5
LOL, @lonewolf. I favor iron skillets!
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