Cool crap on NPD(Narcissistic personality disorder)

[Opti]

Found an interesting URL because of another thread so I thought I'd share more
tidbits here and then go do something more personally useful.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder

While grandiosity is the diagnostic hallmark of pathological narcissism, there is research evidence that pathological narcissism occurs in two forms, (a) a grandiose state of mind in young adults that can be corrected by life experiences, and (b) the stable disorder described in DSM-IV, which is defined less by grandiosity than by severely disturbed interpersonal relations.
The preferred theory seems to be that narcissism is caused by very early affective deprivation, yet the clinical material tends to describe narcissists as unwilling rather than unable, thus treating narcissistic behaviors as volitional -- that is, narcissism is termed a personality disorder, but it tends to be discussed as a character disorder. This distinction is important to prognosis and treatment possibilities. If NPD is caused by infantile damage and consequent developmental short-circuits, it probably represents an irremediable condition. On the other hand, if narcissism is a behavior pattern that's learned, then there is some hope, however tenuous, that it's a behavior pattern that can be unlearned. The clinical literature on NPD is highly theoretical, abstract, and general, with sparse case material, suggesting that clinical writers have little experience with narcissism in the flesh. There are several reasons for this to be so:
-- The incidence of NPD is estimated at 1% in the general population, though I haven't been able to discover the basis of this estimate.

Narcissists are very reluctant to open up and trust, so it's possible that their NPD is not even recognized by therapists in short-term treatment. Purely anecdotal evidence from correspondents and from observations of people I know indicates that selective serotonin-reuptake inhibitors, such as Prozac, aggravate narcissists' grandiosity and lack of social inhibition. It has also been suggested that self-help literature about bolstering self-esteem and getting what you want out of life or that encourages the feeling of victimization has aggravating effects on NPD thinking and behavior.
-- Most clinical writers seem unaware that narcissists' self-reports are unreliable. This is troubling, considering that lying is the most common complaint about narcissists and that, in many instances, defects of empathy lead narcissists to wildly inaccurate misinterpretations of other people's speech and actions, so that they may believe that they are liked and respected despite a history of callous and exploitative personal interactions.

www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/dsm-iv.html

Somewhere in there is descriptions on mild, moderate and severe. It is an old article, however,
it does note that this 'illness' was recently voted into the DSM III in 1980.

[Opti]

N* personality disorder. I keep misspelling it.

What is a personality disorder?

[from Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 4th edition, 1994, commonly referred to as DSM-IV, of the American Psychiatric Association. European countries use the diagnostic criteria of the World Health Organization.]

An enduring pattern of inner experience and behavior that deviates markedly from the expectation of the individual's culture, is pervasive and inflexible, has an onset in adolescence or early adulthood, is stable over time, and leads to distress or impairment.

A personality disorder is a pattern of deviant or abnormal behavior that the person doesn't change even though it causes emotional upsets and trouble with other people at work and in personal relationships. It is not limited to episodes of mental illness, and it is not caused by drug or alcohol use, head injury, or illness. There are about a dozen different behavior patterns classified as personality disorders by DSM-IV. All the personality disorders show up as deviations from normal in one or more of the following:
(1) cognition -- i.e., perception, thinking, and interpretation of oneself, other people, and events;
(2) affectivity -- i.e., emotional responses (range, intensity, lability, appropriateness);
(3) interpersonal functions;
(4) impulsivity.

[Opti]

Cool crap from another URL, but I may have lost the URL.

Personality disorders are associated with ways of thinking and feeling about oneself and others that significantly and adversely affect how an individual functions in many aspects of life. They fall within 10 distinct types: paranoid personality disorder, schizoid personality disorder, schizotypal personality disorder, antisocial personality disorder, borderline personality disorder, histrionic personality, narcissistic personality disorder, avoidant personality disorder, dependent personality disorder and obsessive-compulsive personality disorder.
During the development process of the fifth edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), several proposed revisions were drafted that would have significantly changed the method by which individuals with these disorders are diagnosed. Based on feedback from a multilevel review of proposed revisions, the American Psychiatric Association Board of Trustees ultimately decided to retain the DSM-IV categorical approach with the same 10 personality disorders.
The proposed revisions that were not accepted for the main body of the manual were approved as an alternative hybrid dimensional-categorical model that will be included in a separate chapter in Section III of DSM-5. This alternative model is included to encourage further study on how this new methodology could be used to assess personality and diagnose personality disorders in clinical practice.
DSM-5 moves from the multiaxial system to a new assessment that removes the arbitrary boundaries between personality disorders and other mental disorders.
Assessing on a Single Axis
Until now, DSM has organized clinical assessment into five areas, or axes, addressing the different


Think its an official DSM-V website.

Fact sheet on www.dsm5.org

[Peace Of Mind]

Why are you posting this?!  I never did that!  Why are you watching me?  Why are you talking to me?  I don't trust you. 

Who just said that?  Who left this stuff by my door?  Why am I being harassed and abused?

I don't know.  You typed it!  Ask her.  Or him. 

Stop following me - all of you!

[happyhoix]

Most clinical writers seem unaware that narcissists' self-reports are unreliable.

Of course self reports are unreliable, narcissists never believe that any of their problems are their fault, so why should they go to a therapist in the first place? There is nothing at all wrong with them.  

My sister, who is the Victim Queen, will tell you all the bosses she has ever had, and most of her co-workers, have all been mean, vindictive, back biting, shitty people who hated DS and did everything in their power to make her live hard.

Since she doesn't keep a job more than 2 -3 years at a time, she's had a wide array of bosses and co-workers, and for ALL of them to be out to get her must make her the most the most unlucky person in the world. Or, it makes her a narcissist.

I would never suggest that possibly she had something to do with the bad relationship she's had with everyone she ever worked with (and most of her family and in-laws, plus the people she goes to church with) because that would only trigger one of her screaming melt downs, and it would serve no purpose. She isn't capable of standing outside herself and seeing herself as other people see her, she can only see the world through her victim glasses.

I can see how those kinds of people wouldn't do well in therapy.

[Opti]

Aug 20, 2014 14:11:35 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Most clinical writers seem unaware that narcissists' self-reports are unreliable.

Of course self reports are unreliable, narcissists never believe that any of their problems are their fault, so why should they go to a therapist in the first place? There is nothing at all wrong with them.  

My sister, who is the Victim Queen, will tell you all the bosses she has ever had, and most of her co-workers, have all been mean, vindictive, back biting, shitty people who hated DS and did everything in their power to make her live hard.

Since she doesn't keep a job more than 2 -3 years at a time, she's had a wide array of bosses and co-workers, and for ALL of them to be out to get her must make her the most the most unlucky person in the world. Or, it makes her a narcissist.

I would never suggest that possibly she had something to do with the bad relationship she's had with everyone she ever worked with (and most of her family and in-laws, plus the people she goes to church with) because that would only trigger one of her screaming melt downs, and it would serve no purpose. She isn't capable of standing outside herself and seeing herself as other people see her, she can only see the world through her victim glasses.

I can see how those kinds of people wouldn't do well in therapy.

Agreed, especially the last sentence.

I started this thread in part to not fully derail the other one, but I

don't think that's going to work.

My biggest quibble with the DSM and the term mental illness is a huge swath

of it is based on current beliefs and bad science. Homosexuality was once

considered a mental illness although certain religious types may still consider it so.

Or possession by Satan or some such.

But now its is more widely acknowledged that homosexuality is a regularly occurring

behavior and way of being that occurs on the order of 10% in the human population

and possibly similar in the animal kingdom as well.

Are personality disorders truly an illness? A bonafide mental illness? Or is much of it

due to up-bringing and beliefs? If it can be fixed solely by talk therapy does it make

sense to denote some behaviors as mental illnesses and leave more socially acceptable

ones unlabeled and uncategorized in the DSM?

[Opti]

And similar to mental illnesses, we don't know why people are homosexual.

We don't test for it, it is a preference and a set of behaviors. While it has

been shown that very young children sexually abused at a young age by a same

sex offender are more likely to become homosexual than heterosexual, the

percentages are not yet known.

And then there are bi-sexuals and those who identify as heterosexual yet

enjoy same sex oral gratification. Whether a homosexual is born that way or

nudged by early abuse, it appears this is something that becomes wired in.

I often wonder if many of the personality disorders or aspects of various

listed mental illnesses fall into a similar pattern. Or for another example,

once a tree starts growing crooked because it was under the shade of another,

cutting the other tree down will not change the existing crookedness. It will

only allow the tree to grow more normally in the future.

[Opti]

Aug 20, 2014 14:56:28 GMT -5 @tbird said:

Tom Cruz? Is that you?

I think you wanted to type Tom Cruise, and no my beliefs are not his beliefs.

We do probably agree on some aspects though, that most people do not.

[happyhoix]

Are personality disorders truly an illness? A bonafide mental illness? Or is much of it

due to up-bringing and beliefs? If it can be fixed solely by talk therapy does it make

sense to denote some behaviors as mental illnesses and leave more socially acceptable

ones unlabeled and uncategorized in the DSM?

From my experience with my sister I don't think this is a mental health issue. There isn't anything wrong with her, this is just how she turned out due to the kind of upbringing she had, and the kind of mom she had. It's her personality, and I think at some point your personality is set and impossible to change. If she was capable of self reflection and realized that she is at least somewhat responsible for all the shitty relationships in her life, she could at least think about what she might do differently in the future to try to improve those relationships, but I think narcissists are not capable of the self reflection required to modify their own behavior.

I see some of these people on that Hoarder show sometimes - completely clueless about how their behavior is adversely affecting everyone around them and their finances. Anyone who tries to make them understand how serious their hoarding problem is, fails. They only succeed in making the hoarder feel more like a poor victim who has everyone against him. I guarantee, you clean their house, they'll crap it right back up again, because that's how they like it.

[Opti]

Aug 20, 2014 15:15:38 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Are personality disorders truly an illness? A bonafide mental illness? Or is much of it due to up-bringing and beliefs? If it can be fixed solely by talk therapy does it make sense to denote some behaviors as mental illnesses and leave more socially acceptable ones unlabeled and uncategorized in the DSM?

From my experience with my sister I don't think this is a mental health issue. There isn't anything wrong with her, this is just how she turned out due to the kind of upbringing she had, and the kind of mom she had. It's her personality, and I think at some point your personality is set and impossible to change. If she was capable of self reflection and realized that she is at least somewhat responsible for all the shitty relationships in her life, she could at least think about what she might do differently in the future to try to improve those relationships, but I think narcissists are not capable of the self reflection required to modify their own behavior. I see some of these people on that Hoarder show sometimes - completely clueless about how their behavior is adversely affecting everyone around them and their finances. Anyone who tries to make them understand how serious their hoarding problem is, fails. They only succeed in making the hoarder feel more like a poor victim who has everyone against him. I guarantee, you clean their house, they'll crap it right back up again, because that's how they like it.

 to the bolded.

I knew I appreciated your ability to think clearly!

I think someday, hopefully soon, there will be more clarity in society on this.

We will distinguish the difference between things that can be fixed or adjusted

and those that at best can only have small tweaks. Personality types, gender issues,

sexuality issues will hopefully some day be seen as some category to be named

instead of illness, mental illness.

Is one a narcissit first and the behavior follows after that? The mental

illness of homosexuality did not cause people to want same sex partners.

That symptom if you will was a marker of that way of being, sexual preference. Likewise,

it may be Nariscissm is a behavior once baked in is no longer a cause of

any given behavior just a symptom or sign of that state of being ness or personality.

I think I need to create a word or three.

[Opti]

lol - that is why they are called personality disorders -

Correct, that is the term, but they are also grouped incorrectly IMO

under mental illness.

Hence the need for new words or ways to categorize things.

Plus, I am not certain they should be labeled as disorders.

That implies wrongness, incorrectness with the implication it is fixable.

[msventoux]

Aug 20, 2014 15:15:38 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

From my experience with my sister I don't think this is a mental health issue. There isn't anything wrong with her, this is just how she turned out due to the kind of upbringing she had, and the kind of mom she had. It's her personality, and I think at some point your personality is set and impossible to change. If she was capable of self reflection and realized that she is at least somewhat responsible for all the shitty relationships in her life, she could at least think about what she might do differently in the future to try to improve those relationships, but I think narcissists are not capable of the self reflection required to modify their own behavior.

I cut off contact with my father after my mother died last year.  It was years in the making, but his behavior after her death and multiple blatant lies to my face brought things to a head.  A number of other family members and people in his social circle have also cut off contact since we all only hung around because of my mother.  I've heard from a couple of people we're both in contact with that he just doesn't understand what happened.  He even went to a therapist, and was told that there's nothing wrong with him and he's perfectly well adjusted. 

One, I doubt he even went.  Two, everyone can be perfectly well adjusted if they lie about everything!

I lay a lot of the blame on my grandmother, she absolutely doted over him and thought he was the greatest thing ever, to the detriment of everything else in her life.  I don't see him ever changing since he's completely secure in the thought that he's the center of the universe and that he's not the problem, everyone else is.  He's been making a lot of new friends, but within 6 months most of them stop returning his calls because they finally start seeing what he's really like. 

[Shooby]

Why is every post about Me Me Me?

[msventoux]

Aug 20, 2014 21:10:46 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Why is every post about Me Me Me?

Because we get tired of hearing about you, you, you? 

[giramomma]

Aug 20, 2014 16:30:21 GMT -5 Opti said:

lol - that is why they are called personality disorders -

Correct, that is the term, but they are also grouped incorrectly IMO

under mental illness.

Hence the need for new words or ways to categorize things.

Plus, I am not certain they should be labeled as disorders.

That implies wrongness, incorrectness with the implication it is fixable.

Actually some are "fixable."

From the NAMI website on Borderline Personality Disorder
"Will people with borderline personality disorder get better?

Recent research based on long-term studies of people with BPD suggests that the overwhelming majority of people will experience significant and long-lasting periods of symptom remission in the lifetime. Many people will not experience a complete recovery (e.g., problems with self-esteem and the ability to form and maintain relationships may linger), but nonetheless will be able to live meaningful and productive lives. Many people will require some form of treatment—whether medications or psychotherapy—to help control their symptoms even decades after their initial diagnosis with borderline personality disorder."

www.nami.org/Template.cfm?Section=By_Illness&Template=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=44780


Info on DBT-which helps folks who are diagnosed with borderline personality disorder (and want help.)

From NAMI
www.nami.org/Content/NavigationMenu/Inform_Yourself/About_Mental_Illness/About_Treatments_and_Supports/Dialectical_Behavior_Therapy_%28DBT%29.htm


And, personally, even though I am not mentally ill but a consumer of therapy, I don't believe talk therapy is useful for everyone, period. I did the best with CBT therapists. My DH used CBT to change his behaviors.

You'll also notice that DBT is a form of CBT.

[happyhoix]

I lay a lot of the blame on my grandmother, she absolutely doted over him and thought he was the greatest thing ever, to the detriment of everything else in her life. I don't see him ever changing since he's completely secure in the thought that he's the center of the universe and that he's not the problem, everyone else is.

If you change the word 'mother' to 'grandmother' this is my little sister in a nutshell. Mom was verbally and physically abusive to her first three kids, and when she realized she didn't have a good relationship with any of us, she decided to never discipline or even 'talk negatively' to my little sister - and she wouldn't allow anyone else, inside or outside the family, to discipline or upset my little sister, either. She made it her life's work to try to smooth over all the difficult and unhappy places of my sister's life.

I feel sorry for my little sister because she just happened to be born the youngest in the family, which accidentally made her the target of my mom's experiment to create a daughter who adored her by spoiling her. This crippled my sister, emotionally - she cannot tolerate even the smallest criticism. Now that mom is no longer able to 'fix' everything for her, little sister has to navigate the world on her own.  She walks around finding insults where no insults are intended, constantly angry at all the ways everyone else is being mean to her. It's sad, I feel bad for her husband and kids, but I don't think it can be fixed, at this point.

[Opti]

Actually some are "fixable."

From the NAMI website on Borderline Personality Disorder
"Will people with borderline personality disorder get better?

Recent research based on long-term studies of people with BPD suggests that the overwhelming majority of people will experience significant and long-lasting periods of symptom remission in the lifetime. Many people will not experience a complete recovery (e.g., problems with self-esteem and the ability to form and maintain relationships may linger), but nonetheless will be able to live meaningful and productive lives. Many people will require some form of treatment—whether medications or psychotherapy—to help control their symptoms even decades after their initial diagnosis with borderline personality disorder."

By my definition temporary fixes that can not ever be permanent defines

the state of not ever fixable.

Permanent illness should be an oxymoron.

An illness in my opinion should denote a condition that can be cured.

I'd prefer to lump them under Mental Conditions not Illnesses in preparation

for research and evidence which may point to these being personality types

that will pop up in all human populations no matter what and/or occur

more readily in certain kinds of upbringing. We already know from experimentation

that depriving humans and monkeys with proper maternal contact creates

individuals with lifelong issues. The first three years of a human's life likely

will map to things like husbandry issues with my lizards. You make these

kinds of screw-ups, they are permanent. (BTW, here are some lifelong temp

fixes that can be applied to modify that if you want to.)

[Nazgul Girl]

    Are not schizophrenia and bipolar disorder permanent illnesses ?   I don't think these just go away with therapy or life experiences.   I do think that therapy, some medications, and living mindfully can alleviate some of the symptoms, but they are permanent illnesses.   Wishful thinking isn't going to change those facts.

[Opti]

Aug 21, 2014 7:45:18 GMT -5 Nazgul Girl said:

    Are not schizophrenia and bipolar disorder permanent illnesses ?   I don't think these just go away with therapy or life experiences.   I do think that therapy, some medications, and living mindfully can alleviate some of the symptoms, but they are permanent illnesses.   Wishful thinking isn't going to change those facts.

Not sure, but believe part of those illnesses need not be permanent. Reading first hand experiences and my own experiences suggest at least some of that does not have to be forever.

Two people actually got a cure from schizophrenia permanently by filtering

their blood through a very small filter. I have a feeling a good portion of those

currently diagnosed bipolar having something else causing that. The bipolar is a symptom,

not a cause. Think on post partum depression. If you never ever have a child again,

the symptoms usually disappear for the rest of one's life.

And part of it is going to be how one perceives it and treats it.

Diabetes can be lifelong yet some people totally go off needing insulin by diet alone.

However, if things go south or they muck up their diet again they will likely become

medically diabetic again.

Same with obesity. Life long illness, life long condition or type of condition that

is easy to recur depending on the individual. Is Depression a permanent illness

or one that can recur just like someone getting fat again?

[Opti]

To continue my thought and make it more readable, why are some

conditions i.e. psychiatric, considered permanent when others in the

physical illness space are not?

I have recurring sinus infections. However the physical illness community

distinguishes the difference between chronic conditions and those that

recur on varying timelines. Bluntly, I am not labeled as having the permanent

physical illness of sinus infections.

The very fact it is assumed there is no cure, makes it be perceived that way too.

If you have a clinical Depression for example when you are 20 and then have

another one at 55 when you lose your job and your spouse leaves you, ...

I would say you had clinical Depression at two different times of your life.

I wouldn't say you necessarily had Depression as an illness since age 20.

And there are similar cases in Bipolar literature although the timelines and

relapse rates can be less, ten, fifteen years, etc. But I think that's more because

of expectations and lack of understanding why it even happens.