Roofing Myself (again)

[Deleted]

Aug 13, 2014 13:31:50 GMT -5 alwaysbeoptimizing said:

Man, i'm trying to be lazy. Don't want to do this myself as it's hard work, but here's where hiring stuff out makes no sense.

I have a roof that needs done now (on my main house, I have a rental house that ALSO needs done that would work out to about the same numbers, so all this can be multiplied by 2x).

Roofing bid (to put asphalt shingles back on) = 8,500

Roofing bid (to put standing seam metal on, which we'd really like to do) = 17,500

OR, manage it myself

Hire contractor type buddy for 50/hour (he's done tons of work for me and is very good, but unlicensed)

Hire 2 helpers for him at 30/hour

Materials (metal roof)

2800 for the panels

400 for dumpster to haul off old stuff

400 for flashing/penetrations

300 underlayment

200 lumber (to replace the inevitable rotten wood we'll find)

= 4,000 for all non-labor costs

Timeline:

1 day tearoff and fix all rotten lumber

1 day install new roof

1 day (2 guys only) to do final clean up/paint trim that was replaced/etc to make it nice and "finished"

costs for labor

30 hours for buddy (three 10 hour days) = 1,500

30 hours for one helper = 900

20 hours for one helper = 600

= 3,000 labor

All in price for metal = 7,000 plus sales tax on materials, so call it 7,500 to be safe.

What kills me is how much they jack up for labor around here (Seattle). I don't want to keep doing projects myself (I'm a very well paid office worker), but MAN, I can't pay 10,000 premium for two days of work.

Prices above assume i'm just working as a gopher, getting supplies, arranging dumpster, buying meals for the crew, etc. If I actually WORKED on it, I could eliminate the $900 helper line item.

UGGH, I wish contractors were more reasonable up here. I envy those of you that can hire affordable help.

well part of what you're 'saving' is by using unlicensed contractor and labor, something I would never do for something as big and important as a roof.  so contractors cost so much because they have to get licensing and insurance and bonding and whatever else, whereas Joe Bob down the block doesn't need any of that.  of course if Joe Bob falls off your roof and sues you, you'll probably be wishing you paid the higher price.

also, we afford by prioritizing what we can do ourselves and what we can't.

[ArchietheDragon]

Running a legit business is expensive.  Thank the feds the state and the local government for that. 

[Peace Of Mind]

Aug 13, 2014 13:42:20 GMT -5 @singlemominmd said:

Aug 13, 2014 13:31:50 GMT -5 alwaysbeoptimizing said:

Man, i'm trying to be lazy. Don't want to do this myself as it's hard work, but here's where hiring stuff out makes no sense.

I have a roof that needs done now (on my main house, I have a rental house that ALSO needs done that would work out to about the same numbers, so all this can be multiplied by 2x).

Roofing bid (to put asphalt shingles back on) = 8,500

Roofing bid (to put standing seam metal on, which we'd really like to do) = 17,500

OR, manage it myself

Hire contractor type buddy for 50/hour (he's done tons of work for me and is very good, but unlicensed)

Hire 2 helpers for him at 30/hour

Materials (metal roof)

2800 for the panels

400 for dumpster to haul off old stuff

400 for flashing/penetrations

300 underlayment

200 lumber (to replace the inevitable rotten wood we'll find)

= 4,000 for all non-labor costs

Timeline:

1 day tearoff and fix all rotten lumber

1 day install new roof

1 day (2 guys only) to do final clean up/paint trim that was replaced/etc to make it nice and "finished"

costs for labor

30 hours for buddy (three 10 hour days) = 1,500

30 hours for one helper = 900

20 hours for one helper = 600

= 3,000 labor

All in price for metal = 7,000 plus sales tax on materials, so call it 7,500 to be safe.

What kills me is how much they jack up for labor around here (Seattle). I don't want to keep doing projects myself (I'm a very well paid office worker), but MAN, I can't pay 10,000 premium for two days of work.

Prices above assume i'm just working as a gopher, getting supplies, arranging dumpster, buying meals for the crew, etc. If I actually WORKED on it, I could eliminate the $900 helper line item.

UGGH, I wish contractors were more reasonable up here. I envy those of you that can hire affordable help.

well part of what you're 'saving' is by using unlicensed contractor and labor, something I would never do for something as big and important as a roof.  so contractors cost so much because they have to get licensing and insurance and bonding and whatever else, whereas Joe Bob down the block doesn't need any of that.  of course if Joe Bob falls off your roof and sues you, you'll probably be wishing you paid the higher price.

  What's the point of saving so much money and "making it" if you just end up falling off of a roof and hurting/killing yourself? 

My neighbor's cousin was putting up Christmas lights on his roof and fell.  It killed him.  It's just not worth it. 

[justme]

Has your friend ever put on a metal roof before? The helpers? If not, I think you're greatly underestimating the time to put the metal roof on. It's not a simple little thing - especially if your roof is not super basic. 

That said for a roof I'd stick with someone licensed. Falling 10+ ft will cause you and your insurance company a lot of money. (Assuming things like unlicensed roofers aren't excluded or something.)

[ArchietheDragon]

Aug 13, 2014 14:01:42 GMT -5 alwaysbeoptimizing said:

Hmm, so you think the licensing and workman's comp is 5,000/day (x250/days per year) 1,250,000/year for a three employee business?

I've paid workman's comp, runs a couple of bucks an hour. Licensing is about $500/year.

Insurance (business liability beyond workmen's comp) is i'm sure a few thousand per month.

I'm not expecting the contractor to meet the price. if he had been at 12K (a 5K premium), I would still consider my approach but wouldn't complain about it, but when it is literally a $125/per man hour premium, it's hard to justify).

I do understand the issues and appreciate the feedback, but surprised that the only answer from everyone is "pay up, there is no way to reduce this cost, even though in my own market this would cost 10K tops).

did you get multiple quotes?

[Deleted]

Aug 13, 2014 14:01:42 GMT -5 alwaysbeoptimizing said:

Hmm, so you think the licensing and workman's comp is 5,000/day (x250/days per year) 1,250,000/year for a three employee business?

I've paid workman's comp, runs a couple of bucks an hour. Licensing is about $500/year.

Insurance (business liability beyond workmen's comp) is i'm sure a few thousand per month.

I'm not expecting the contractor to meet the price. if he had been at 12K (a 5K premium), I would still consider my approach but wouldn't complain about it, but when it is literally a $125/per man hour premium, it's hard to justify).

I do understand the issues and appreciate the feedback, but surprised that the only answer from everyone is "pay up, there is no way to reduce this cost, even though in my own market this would cost 10K tops).

well if the costs are so low, go into the business and charge just below your competitors.

[yogiii]

Aug 13, 2014 14:12:42 GMT -5 @singlemominmd said:

Aug 13, 2014 14:01:42 GMT -5 alwaysbeoptimizing said:

Hmm, so you think the licensing and workman's comp is 5,000/day (x250/days per year) 1,250,000/year for a three employee business?

I've paid workman's comp, runs a couple of bucks an hour. Licensing is about $500/year.

Insurance (business liability beyond workmen's comp) is i'm sure a few thousand per month.

I'm not expecting the contractor to meet the price. if he had been at 12K (a 5K premium), I would still consider my approach but wouldn't complain about it, but when it is literally a $125/per man hour premium, it's hard to justify).

I do understand the issues and appreciate the feedback, but surprised that the only answer from everyone is "pay up, there is no way to reduce this cost, even though in my own market this would cost 10K tops).

well if the costs are so low, go into the business and charge just below your competitors.

He can't do that.  Roofing isn't an approved STEM major.

Though the cost difference does bother me, I'd be very hesitant to hire someone without metal roofing experience.

[Formerly SK]

I think you are greatly underestimating labor.  We've paid people to reroof a roof 2x and while they did it in two days, there were a team of guys working.  I can't imagine 2-3 guys doing it in a weekend. 

We're in the Portland OR area and both our (composite) roof jobs were 6-7K.  I would get more quotes.

[Deleted]

Aug 13, 2014 14:17:58 GMT -5 Formerly SK said:

I think you are greatly underestimating labor.  We've paid people to reroof a roof 2x and while they did it in two days, there were a team of guys working.  I can't imagine 2-3 guys doing it in a weekend. 

We're in the Portland OR area and both our (composite) roof jobs were 6-7K.  I would get more quotes.

The last roof job I had done there were at least 16 Mexicans on my roof.  They stripped, and reshingled a huge house and garage in ONE DAY.  It was mind boggling.  I'm glad my insurance paid for it though because it was something like 18K.  Lifetime shingles (yeah right). 

I've done so many roofs in my life and I'm done with that.  It's not rocket science, but it's hot and backbreaking work.  I think working with steel is quite a bit more complicated.  It's true though that you can save a lot of money doing it yourself. 

[Mardi Gras Audrey]

Aug 13, 2014 14:01:42 GMT -5 alwaysbeoptimizing said:

Hmm, so you think the licensing and workman's comp is 5,000/day (x250/days per year) 1,250,000/year for a three employee business?

I've paid workman's comp, runs a couple of bucks an hour. Licensing is about $500/year.

Insurance (business liability beyond workmen's comp) is i'm sure a few thousand per month.

I'm not expecting the contractor to meet the price. if he had been at 12K (a 5K premium), I would still consider my approach but wouldn't complain about it, but when it is literally a $125/per man hour premium, it's hard to justify).

I do understand the issues and appreciate the feedback, but surprised that the only answer from everyone is "pay up, there is no way to reduce this cost, even though in my own market this would cost 10K tops).

I wouldn't say the licensing and workman's cost cost $5k a day but they certainly would add up.  Doesn't workman's comp pricing depend on the industry?  I can't see the same premium for a roofing company vs. an office job (The costs of an injury if you trip and fall or get a paper cut are substantially less than someone falling off a roof).

They also are paying taxes (FICA, income tax, property tax, and all).  I'm assuming you won't be paying the employer side of FICA for these guys. Office space rent/utilities, front office help (a legit business probably would need someone to answer the phones and schedule stuff so that the guy on the roof isn't doing it), gas and vehicles to transport the supplies.  Medical benefits for their employees (would think medical insurance would be higher for a small company with employees who are physically active), possible 401k match, etc. Also have to think about when they can work/the weather.  If they can't make $$ during the winter because the weather is bad, they need to make enough to get through in the summer.

All these expenses add up.  I'm not saying that $5k per day is reasonable... I just think that you are overlooking a lot of the costs of doing business.

[justme]

My dad put up the metal roof on their house. He also had put up the original shingle roof and built the whole damn house. It was put over the existing roof (so no tear down, no repairs needed), but there was a chimney and with the house being T shaped there were some obstacles to maneuver. It took him at least a weekend working it. I'm thinking it'd take at least 2 just to put the roof on unless this crew is super skilled and experienced in metal roofs (and I'm guessing not since they could get a lot more money than what they'd charge you it seems).

[973beachbum]

Aug 13, 2014 14:24:50 GMT -5 Mardi Gras Audrey said:

Aug 13, 2014 14:01:42 GMT -5 alwaysbeoptimizing said:

Hmm, so you think the licensing and workman's comp is 5,000/day (x250/days per year) 1,250,000/year for a three employee business?

I've paid workman's comp, runs a couple of bucks an hour. Licensing is about $500/year.

Insurance (business liability beyond workmen's comp) is i'm sure a few thousand per month.

I'm not expecting the contractor to meet the price. if he had been at 12K (a 5K premium), I would still consider my approach but wouldn't complain about it, but when it is literally a $125/per man hour premium, it's hard to justify).

I do understand the issues and appreciate the feedback, but surprised that the only answer from everyone is "pay up, there is no way to reduce this cost, even though in my own market this would cost 10K tops).

I wouldn't say the licensing and workman's cost cost $5k a day but they certainly would add up.  Doesn't workman's comp pricing depend on the industry?  I can't see the same premium for a roofing company vs. an office job (The costs of an injury if you trip and fall or get a paper cut are substantially less than someone falling off a roof).

They also are paying taxes (FICA, income tax, property tax, and all).  I'm assuming you won't be paying the employer side of FICA for these guys. Office space rent/utilities, front office help (a legit business probably would need someone to answer the phones and schedule stuff so that the guy on the roof isn't doing it), gas and vehicles to transport the supplies.  Medical benefits for their employees (would think medical insurance would be higher for a small company with employees who are physically active), possible 401k match, etc. Also have to think about when they can work/the weather.  If they can't make $$ during the winter because the weather is bad, they need to make enough to get through in the summer.

All these expenses add up.  I'm not saying that $5k per day is reasonable... I just think that you are overlooking a lot of the costs of doing business.

Liability for roofing is crazy expensive also.  The insurance company actually seems more afraid of someone on the roof dropping something on top of an innocent bystander on the ground than they were of one of the employees on the roof falling off.

We had a roofing company and DH worked for others for a long time.  I will say that in that time he fell off a roof once and was actually fin other than some cuts and bruises.  He was also shot with a nail gun permantly damaging his hand.  For some reason one handed carpenters aren't in much demand.  

[Abby Normal]

Aug 13, 2014 14:24:50 GMT -5 Mardi Gras Audrey said:

 Doesn't workman's comp pricing depend on the industry? 

In Washington, it's not only done by the industry, but by the particular job. So yes, roofing would be a very high rate.

[resolution]

It took a team of three guys over a week to put a new standing seam roof on our house, and they were full time roofers with a lot of experience. They also replaced all the gutters, so that may have added to the time. However they were nowhere close to your schedule.

[Deleted]

Aug 13, 2014 16:26:06 GMT -5 @missmargarita said:

Do you need to pull a permit for a new roof? If so... I doubt you could do that by using an unlicensed contractor? 

I know I needed a permit when I replaced the roof on my parent's house and also when my roof was replaced.  He could pull the permit himself saying he's doing the work I guess.

I'm wondering if the OP has heard the term 'penny wise, pound foolish'

[resolution]

It may also depend on the type of metal roof. We accidentally picked a color that ended up being commercial grade instead of residential grade, so it was a lot thicker than most metal sheets. It ended up taking a lot longer than the contractor anticipated because of the thick metal.

[swamp]

We did our own metal roof. DH called in some friends and relatives. No issues.

[teen persuasion]

I second the motion to get more quotes.  Why is the quote for the metal roof double the asphalt roof?  

We've done an asphalt roof ourselves, DH did the garage roof with metal by himself (and fell off - they are slippery!), but we had an Amish crew put a metal roof on our main roof last fall.  We got quotes for both asphalt and metal roofs.  The metal were higher, but not double.  I think it was ~$6500, including gutters.

Can you just contract out the labor, and order the metal roofing yourself?  We've got a number of metal roofing suppliers in our area, and we priced out doing it ourselves first.  They would send a guy over to measure and calculate your order, so it was correct.

[myrrh]

Mr. Money Mustache had an interesting article on metal roofs.

www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/03/24/how-to-install-a-metal-roof/

[Deleted]

Aug 14, 2014 10:23:01 GMT -5 alwaysbeoptimizing said:

Yeah, RUKH, roofs can be scary. I hate heights myself and am not a fan of hard work in general.

A big part is the roof pitch and elevation off of ground. I've seen a lot of roofs that you couldn't pay me to go up on, but mine is a very gradual slope, and I've been on it three times already to clean gutters.

for those who were really anti DIY (singlemominmd made some observations/comments), do you hire anyone to clean your gutters? ARe they licensed, bonded and insured?

I'm anti DIY for anything that may kill me or seriously harm me - roofs fit into that category along with electrical.  then there are the things that I could do myself but don't want to (clean my house) and then the things I could probably do myself but would prefer to pay someone so that it's done quickly and doesn't involve 10 trips to Home Depot (carpet cleaning, toilet replacing).

my gutters have gutter guards, no cleaning needed.

[resolution]

Aug 14, 2014 10:23:01 GMT -5 alwaysbeoptimizing said:

Yeah, RUKH, roofs can be scary. I hate heights myself and am not a fan of hard work in general.

A big part is the roof pitch and elevation off of ground. I've seen a lot of roofs that you couldn't pay me to go up on, but mine is a very gradual slope, and I've been on it three times already to clean gutters.

for those who were really anti DIY (singlemominmd made some observations/comments), do you hire anyone to clean your gutters? ARe they licensed, bonded and insured?

I would strongly recommend that you put in gutter guards while you are up there. We haven't had to clean our gutters since we had them installed. We got the fiber kind that sits inside the gutter rather than the kind that is a screen on top.

Before we got the gutter guards, DH went up there a couple times a year to clean them.