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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 12, 2014 21:03:07 GMT -5
I thought the thread was about the killing of children by ISIS. Not about Nobel prize winners living free outside of Islam . your post was not about the killing of children by ISIS, either, bro. give me a f(*king break.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 12, 2014 21:06:44 GMT -5
More 'religion of peace' nonsense eh? Some Mormons are marrying multiple child brides to this day- we don't indict the entire religion for it , do we? This belongs on the hate radio thread- since this is where it comes from. EVT1- Actually the Mormon church not longer supports polygamy and has denounced those who do so as not belonging to their faith. www.mormon.org/faq/practice-of-polygamyPart of the problem (at least in my perception) is that the Muslim religion is so fragmented that no one can really speak with strong authority and denounce actions done in the name of that faith. I know the Saudies and Jordianians have denounced these actions but for some reason that did not get as much press as when the Pope did so. BINGO! and therefore, you can't really offer a blanket criticism of Islam in the sense that you can Catholicism (which, until not long ago, did not openly even ACKNOWLEDGE sex abuse among it's ranks), only criticism directed at the SECT to which these nutters belong. these guys represent Islam about as much as Westboro represents Christianity.
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 12, 2014 21:08:54 GMT -5
I don't have to look any deeper to know who I am . No way in hell am I going to stand by and watch women and children abused. then say " oh look evil" ... look out ... "better move on." I am going to look it in the eye and kick it's f*^k1ing ass. oh really, now. what asses were kicked by you in the last century of pedophilia in the Catholic church?
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Aug 12, 2014 21:10:02 GMT -5
Exactly- calling Islam the 'religion of peace' in jest is like calling Catholicism the religion of child abuse.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 12, 2014 21:12:11 GMT -5
Another kid ruined by a degenerate parent that passes their effed up beliefs onto innocent children.
Nobody is born a terrorist, racist, religious fanatic, etc. You've got to be taught To hate and fear, You've got to be taught From year to year, It's got to be drummed In your dear little ear You've got to be carefully taught. You've got to be taught to be afraid Of people whose eyes are oddly made, And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade, You've got to be carefully taught. You've got to be taught before it's too late, Before you are six or seven or eight, To hate all the people your relatives hate, You've got to be carefully taught!
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Post by EVT1 on Aug 12, 2014 21:35:14 GMT -5
Another kid ruined by a degenerate parent that passes their effed up beliefs onto innocent children.
Nobody is born a terrorist, racist, religious fanatic, etc. You've got to be taught To hate and fear, You've got to be taught From year to year, It's got to be drummed In your dear little ear You've got to be carefully taught. You've got to be taught to be afraid Of people whose eyes are oddly made, And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade, You've got to be carefully taught. You've got to be taught before it's too late, Before you are six or seven or eight, To hate all the people your relatives hate, You've got to be carefully taught! Where did you get that one? So true.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 12, 2014 21:39:54 GMT -5
You've got to be taught To hate and fear, You've got to be taught From year to year, It's got to be drummed In your dear little ear You've got to be carefully taught. You've got to be taught to be afraid Of people whose eyes are oddly made, And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade, You've got to be carefully taught. You've got to be taught before it's too late, Before you are six or seven or eight, To hate all the people your relatives hate, You've got to be carefully taught! Where did you get that one? So true. That's from the Rogers and Hammerstein musical South Pacific, EVT. Great song!
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Post by Tennesseer on Aug 12, 2014 22:05:22 GMT -5
I always think of the song and lyrics below whenever DJ posts the lyrics from the South Pacific song. No as blunt as the message from South Pacific, these lyrics from the song, Children Will Listen, from the Sonheim musical, Into The Woods, convey a similar message:
How do you say to your child in the night? Nothing's all black, but then nothing's all white How do you say it will all be all right When you know that it might not be true? What do you do?
Careful the things you say Children will listen Careful the things you do Children will see and learn Children may not obey, but children will listen Children will look to you for which way to turn To learn what to be Careful before you say "Listen to me" Children will listen
Careful the wish you make Wishes are children Careful the path they take Wishes come true, not free Careful the spell you cast Not just on children Sometimes the spell may last Past what you can see And turn against you Careful the tale you tell That is the spell Children will listen
How can you say to a child who's in flight "Don't slip away and i won't hold so tight "What can you say that no matter how slight Won't be misunderstood What do you leave to your child when you're dead? Only whatever you put in it's head Things that you're mother and father had said Which were left to them too Careful what you say Children will listen Careful you do it too Children will see And learn, oh guide them then step away Children will glisten Tamper with what is true And children will turn If just to be free Careful before you say"Listen to me" Children will listen
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 12, 2014 23:06:11 GMT -5
Where did you get that one? So true. That's from the Rogers and Hammerstein musical South Pacific, EVT. Great song! you know what i think of every time i reproduce that? how that song could never be written today, or if it was, it would be ignored. i feel like we are moving backwards, mmhmm. i really do. but credit where credit is due: Hammerstein had to fight McCarthy and the anti-miscegenation crowd for those lyrics. it was not enthusiastically received, but it DID make the final cut. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You%27ve_Got_to_Be_Carefully_Taught
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 12, 2014 23:41:53 GMT -5
That's from the Rogers and Hammerstein musical South Pacific, EVT. Great song! you know what i think of every time i reproduce that? how that song could never be written today, or if it was, it would be ignored. i feel like we are moving backwards, mmhmm. i really do. but credit where credit is due: Hammerstein had to fight McCarthy and the anti-miscegenation crowd for those lyrics. it was not enthusiastically received, but it DID make the final cut. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You%27ve_Got_to_Be_Carefully_TaughtI recall learning there was quite an uproar over that song. It was considered a bit too controversial for its time.
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Post by damnotagain on Aug 13, 2014 4:32:26 GMT -5
I thought the thread was about the killing of children by ISIS. Not about Nobel prize winners living free outside of Islam . your post was not about the killing of children by ISIS, either, bro. give me a f(*king break. Which post were you referring to? Big difference when women are free In a democracy touting peace and respect for women of Islam than in the Islamic country's of suppression they come from.
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Post by damnotagain on Aug 13, 2014 4:38:39 GMT -5
I don't have to look any deeper to know who I am . No way in hell am I going to stand by and watch women and children abused. then say " oh look evil" ... look out ... "better move on." I am going to look it in the eye and kick it's f*^k1ing ass. oh really, now. what asses were kicked by you in the last century of pedophilia in the Catholic church? Respond according Your taking this post out of context with the reply it was directed at. We're not discussing the rape of innocent children by catholic priest. Start a thread about abuses in the Catholic Church . if I ever saw a priest molesting a child I can assure you I would respond accordingly. Is the child damaged you bet. It still beats losing your head for just being Christian.
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Post by damnotagain on Aug 13, 2014 5:05:53 GMT -5
Another kid ruined by a degenerate parent that passes their effed up beliefs onto innocent children.
Nobody is born a terrorist, racist, religious fanatic, etc. You've got to be taught To hate and fear, You've got to be taught From year to year, It's got to be drummed In your dear little ear You've got to be carefully taught. You've got to be taught to be afraid Of people whose eyes are oddly made, And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade, You've got to be carefully taught. You've got to be taught before it's too late, Before you are six or seven or eight, To hate all the people your relatives hate, You've got to be carefully taught! No but people are born bi polar and Schizophrenic . Lol to funny. Read the Quran the hadiths and five pillars. Yes it is taught
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Post by The Captain on Aug 13, 2014 7:11:38 GMT -5
Exactly- calling Islam the 'religion of peace' in jest is like calling Catholicism the religion of child abuse.
I'm going to stick my neck out very far on this one... I was raised Catholic and am still active in our parish. Last year I volunteered for a function at DD's school and had to go through child abuse training and certification before I was allowed to perform the volunteer work. I have no problem with that. However, the course content of the material spend an inordinate amount of time reminding the participant that the majority of child abusers were relatives. During the entire process there was not one acknowledgment of the widespread problem in the Church, or the lack of concern about protecting the most vulnerable members of the for DECADES! There has been no true ownership or reform in this area. Churches and Dioceses' are disavowing blame by casting the (known) offenders as independent contractors and attempting bankruptcy to protect assets. It sickens me to no end. EVT1 is trying to make a point, but as someone who is a member, and active, in the Catholic church I will tell you he has made his point in the wrong way. Until you own the wrongs, are truly repentant, and force change through the whole culture, that which you allowed, will define you in the eyes of outsiders.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 13, 2014 9:43:48 GMT -5
Not to ruin the friendly campfire, but people don't need to be taught to hate, distrust, fear, or think less of other races any more than they need to be taught to love, respect, and tolerate other races.
Quite the contrary. Fear and distrust are a far more natural state than love and tolerance.
That's not to say that nurture doesn't have a significant--even predominant--role in shaping hateful attitudes. But discounting nature entirely is folly.
And as DnA asks: What is the scriptural basis for the militants' beliefs? What was the scriptural basis for the Crusades? Were the Crusades conducted in compliance with Biblical scripture? Are the tenets of ISIS and other like-minded groups compatible with Qu'ranic teachings?
What is the nature of the fundamental doctrines? What is the religion's anchor? That's what should be judged, for better or for worse.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 13, 2014 11:13:11 GMT -5
You've got to be taught To hate and fear, You've got to be taught From year to year, It's got to be drummed In your dear little ear You've got to be carefully taught. You've got to be taught to be afraid Of people whose eyes are oddly made, And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade, You've got to be carefully taught. You've got to be taught before it's too late, Before you are six or seven or eight, To hate all the people your relatives hate, You've got to be carefully taught! No but people are born bi polar and Schizophrenic . Lol to funny. Read the Quran the hadiths and five pillars. Yes it is taught the Bible has plenty of venom in it as well. and that makes sense, given that it has the same subtext.
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 13, 2014 11:15:32 GMT -5
oh really, now. what asses were kicked by you in the last century of pedophilia in the Catholic church? Respond according Your taking this post out of context with the reply it was directed at. you were, as well. this is not a discussion about Islam, it is a discussion about ISIS. listen- i respond tit for tat, dna. you want to make outrageous claims impugning a religion, i will make counterexamples. it is how i roll. if my claims are indefensible, so are yours.
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 13, 2014 11:18:27 GMT -5
Virgil: i disagree completely that hate and fear are a "natural" state.
have you ever watched 2-5 year olds play? they don't give one stitch whether they are playing with a Muslim, a Jew, a Christian, whether they are black, white, yellow, or blue. they will play in just as friendly a way with all of them.
if their parents let them.
no, you are wrong about this. our natural state as social creatures is to love one another and get along. we are taught to hate.
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 13, 2014 11:20:56 GMT -5
your post was not about the killing of children by ISIS, either, bro. give me a f(*king break. Which post were you referring to? the one i responded to.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 13, 2014 15:04:37 GMT -5
I've watched 2-5 year-olds play plenty. They form cliques, exclude kids they don't like, quarrel, act childishly. They're invariably wary and frightened of kids they don't know until they're forcibly introduced. The only thing that prevents the situation from descending into chaos is the fact that there's always an authority around as an anchor.
Moreover, 2-5 year-olds have already learned plenty about morality from their parents. My 2-year-old niece knows things she can say, things she shouldn't say, that she shouldn't hit or take things from her younger brother (which is an order she occasionally defies, with consequences), how to play nicely with other kids, etc. By a time a child is five, they've learned not to make comments like "that weird-looking brown lady", "that lady with the big lips", "that man with the funny eyes". They've learned to forgive friends, respect authority, exhibit courtesy, share, and behave appropriately. If you think all of that is natural, watch a documentary on feral children sometime and be amazed.
Thirdly, most 2-5 year-olds lack the capacity to understand racism, which is a condition that diminishes as they grow older. By the time a child is 10, for instance, he may have noticed that he doesn't have any black friends, and that he doesn't care for any of the black kids at his school. He might easily generalize this into an opinion of all blacks, no teaching needed. I daresay that in the absence of constant teaching to correct it, most children by the age of 15 will invariably have developed dozens of strong stereotypes about different groups, no instruction needed. I'd go so far as to say that a child totally without moral instruction who reaches age 15 without several deep prejudices does so due to a total lack of awareness rather than an inherent sense of communalism.
Hatred strong enough to motivate things like suicide attacks certainly has to be taught. But there's a great wide spectrum of hate below that too, much of which can come about perfectly naturally.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 13, 2014 15:14:16 GMT -5
again, i disagree. but i don't think that any amount of disagreement will advance my position, and i am not a child psychologist, so i am going to leave it to those with greater expertise to take up my point for me.
if kids are already taught morality by 5 (i don't think that is possible, from what i remember), then they can also be taught hatred, btw- so that is a knife that cuts both way. but again, i don't think they can be taught either at that age. they simply don't understand it. in their "natural state" they are without bigotry to a degree that should make adults envious, IN MY EXPERIENCE.
edit: that was not entirely clear. what i meant was that they don't actually understand morality at that age, but they CAN mimic it. ideas like SHARING, for example, can be taught. but kids don't really understand WHY at that age. again, at least that is what i remember.
edit2: i don't think feral kids are a natural state, as humans are social creatures. depriving kids or adults of contact with other people will make them mentally imbalanced. i am talking about what i would describe as "healthy kids", and what THEIR natural state is. kids that have nurturing parents, for example. but this gets us a bit off axis. if you are going to claim that feral kids will act out with hostility and fear, i would say that is indeed "natural" in the sense that it is not nurtured. but so is altruism, in dissimilar but just as "natural" conditions.
_END_
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Post by EVT1 on Aug 13, 2014 15:38:38 GMT -5
Exactly- calling Islam the 'religion of peace' in jest is like calling Catholicism the religion of child abuse.
I'm going to stick my neck out very far on this one... I was raised Catholic and am still active in our parish. Last year I volunteered for a function at DD's school and had to go through child abuse training and certification before I was allowed to perform the volunteer work. I have no problem with that. However, the course content of the material spend an inordinate amount of time reminding the participant that the majority of child abusers were relatives. During the entire process there was not one acknowledgment of the widespread problem in the Church, or the lack of concern about protecting the most vulnerable members of the for DECADES! There has been no true ownership or reform in this area. Churches and Dioceses' are disavowing blame by casting the (known) offenders as independent contractors and attempting bankruptcy to protect assets. It sickens me to no end. EVT1 is trying to make a point, but as someone who is a member, and active, in the Catholic church I will tell you he has made his point in the wrong way. Until you own the wrongs, are truly repentant, and force change through the whole culture, that which you allowed, will define you in the eyes of outsiders. I think I made it the right way- the majority of Catholic clergy are not child abusers. And btw I am a Catholic so I can say what I want about them But I get your point- there should be strong condemnation that is lacking in both situations.
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Post by damnotagain on Aug 13, 2014 15:47:21 GMT -5
Your taking this post out of context with the reply it was directed at. you were, as well. this is not a discussion about Islam, it is a discussion about ISIS. listen- i respond tit for tat, dna. you want to make outrageous claims impugning a religion, i will make counterexamples. it is how i roll. if my claims are indefensible, so are yours. With the main goal of isis being to establish a caliphate how do you propose the separation of isis from Islam? A caliphate (in Arabic: خلافة khilāfa, meaning "succession") is an Islamic state led by a supreme religious and political leader known as a caliph – i.e. "successor" – to Muhammad. The succession of Muslim empires that have existed in the Muslim world are usually described as "caliphates". Conceptually, a caliphate represents a sovereign state of the entire Muslim faithful, (the Ummah), ruled by a caliph under Islamic law (sharia).[citation needed] ISIS is known for its harsh interpretation of the Islamic faith and sharia law[63] en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliphateen.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levantsome tit for your tat!
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 13, 2014 16:54:50 GMT -5
you were, as well. this is not a discussion about Islam, it is a discussion about ISIS. listen- i respond tit for tat, dna. you want to make outrageous claims impugning a religion, i will make counterexamples. it is how i roll. if my claims are indefensible, so are yours. With the main goal of isis being to establish a caliphate how do you propose the separation of isis from Islam? easy. we treat them as separate from mainstream Islam, even if they don't want us to. i am not following why that is so difficult.
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Post by damnotagain on Aug 13, 2014 17:06:28 GMT -5
Wow , easy! That's it. Wars over ! ISIS surrendered! They gave up Islam! DJ just fixed the mess in the Middle East.
Head on over and tell ISIS how easy that was. Bring your body back. Your head will be staying. Lmao I am speechless. You win.
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 13, 2014 18:58:39 GMT -5
Wow , easy! That's it. Wars over ! ISIS surrendered! They gave up Islam! DJ just fixed the mess in the Middle East. Head on over and tell ISIS how easy that was. Bring your body back. Your head will be staying. Lmao I am speechless. You win. let's get a few things straight. first of all, i am thoroughly anti-war. so, even if ISIS were an actual country, with an army, and statehood, i would be very reluctant to engage them. secondly, i don't think terrorists should be treated as holy warriors. that feeds their own self importance, as is your position on this. you are treating them like they are a serious threat. they are not. i would explain why, but i have had enough of your condescension for today. this is a special forces issue. deploying the air force to massacre tens of thousands of people to get a few rag tag morons is a poor use of moral, physical, and financial capital. but apparently even a trillion dollar fiasco in Iraq is insufficient to turn some heads. Obama is engaging in a fool's exercise if he thinks he can democratize a country by bombing it. having said all that, i would also add that you are making this far too personal. nobody gives a shit about me or you, only our opinions. let's try to keep it that way. but to set you straight, i am suggesting that Islam give them up, not the other way around. the caliphate has been on the table since at least Sayyd Kutb, and probably a lot longer. the world has not ended, and few minds have been changed. i have an unusual amount of faith in the ability of average people to overcome their ignorance and fear and lead better lives for it. the two examples i cited earlier are two of thousands, and probably millions, that have seen the truth and followed it, and yet are STILL dedicated Muslims. there are 6M Muslims living in America. i am betting that there are a lot more that serve in the military than spend their times dreaming about bombing US targets. if you don't, i couldn't really care less.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 13, 2014 19:06:55 GMT -5
Wow , easy! That's it. Wars over ! ISIS surrendered! They gave up Islam! DJ just fixed the mess in the Middle East. Head on over and tell ISIS how easy that was. Bring your body back. Your head will be staying. Lmao I am speechless. You win. I lived in Islamic countries for nearly 20 years, damnot. Have you? For how long? What do you actually know (from your own experience) about Islam or Islamic people? Not what you've read, but what you actually know from experience.
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Post by Spellbound454 on Aug 13, 2014 19:52:45 GMT -5
I'm not sure why its being painted as a big rescue mission.
There aren't many people on that Mountain...They have been taken off already by the Kurdish forces.
Will the bombing aids continue?...and what exactly is the objective?
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 14, 2014 13:26:09 GMT -5
I'm not sure why its being painted as a big rescue mission. There aren't many people on that Mountain...They have been taken off already by the Kurdish forces. Will the bombing aids continue?...and what exactly is the objective? bingo. what IS the objective?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 14, 2014 16:10:02 GMT -5
I give up. What?
Save face?
Kill off as many militants as they can before they breed?
Fund the MIC?
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