Student Loan story - Student dies

[nutty]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2709131/Grieving-parents-hit-200-000-bill-daughters-student-loans-died-suddenly.html

What are your thoughts on this.

My thoughts.

100k for a nursing degree, makes me think she was not being prudent. The parents co-signed and are contractually bound to pay. I don't know what the answer is to this but I did like one suggestion to take out a term life policy if possible to counter against the death of the student.

I can't remember but I don't think with Stafford Loans you need a co-signer

[The Captain]

1.  Based on the story the daughter had three kids, age 9, 12, and 14 - so if she died when she was 27 she had the first kid at 13.

I would suggest saying she was not prudent is the understatement of the century.

2.  The children's father(s) should be providing child support, that should help.  But, surprise, surprise, it sounds like there are no daddies in the picture.

3.  They keep crying about not being able to pay on a pastor's salary - why doesn't the pastor's wife get off her butt and get a job?

4.  They were all private loans, which is REALLY not adding up since based on a "pastor's salary" and the fact that the DD was a "single mother" she would have qualified for grants and federally subsidized loans.

Sorry - I'm calling bullshit on this sob story - there's just too much that's not adding up.

Bottom line, they co-signed for the loans, they are adults and knew the risk  - they should pay them.

ETA - Nutty corrected me later in this thread.  The daughter died 5 years ago so she would have been 18 when she had the first child.  Still, the rest of my above questions stick.

[zibazinski]

[nutty]

She died in 2009, she would be 32, that would make her 18 or so when pregnant with the first child.

Oh ok I was trying to be polite, should I have said she was a dumbass for having 100k in student loans. I think not being prudent with those loans is appropriate and polite.

[973beachbum]

1. Based on the story the daughter had three kids, age 9, 12, and 14 - so if she died when she was 27 she had the first kid at 13.

I would suggest saying she was not prudent is the understatement of the century.

The student died in 2009 so the oldest would have been 9 years old when she died.  So while 18 is young for me it isn't 13 either.

as far as the meat of the story I "think" she used these loans to support herself while she was in college.  That is the only explanation I can think of to explain this.  She "only" took out $100K though.  the add'l $100K was from added interest and penalties.   I will add that the cheaper schools nursing programs have pretty long waiting lists so maybe she decided to do the quicker method and went to a private school would would have made it much more expensive. 

Bottom line this was a very expensive move on the parents part to cosign those loans.  Student loans don't go away unless the people who took out the loans dies and that includes cosigners.  Combined they have to make about $100K a year.  I doubt they had to buy a new house to take care of the kids.  And I am feeding and clothing my two on less than they make.  So while $2K a month is a lot it isn't like they shouldn't be able to pay at least some of it.  

[The Captain]

Jul 29, 2014 6:49:23 GMT -5 nutty said:

She died in 2009, she would be 32, that would make her 18 or so when pregnant with the first child.

Oh ok I was trying to be polite, should I have said she was a dumbass for having 100k in student loans. I think not being prudent with those loans is appropriate and polite.

Yep, you're right about the age.  I missed that.  So if she was 18 when the first kid was born that would automatically make her independent, right?  Qualify for a lot of aid and subsidized loans.

Doesn't change the rest, there's just too much that's not adding up.

[973beachbum]

Jul 29, 2014 7:04:33 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Jul 29, 2014 6:49:23 GMT -5 nutty said:

She died in 2009, she would be 32, that would make her 18 or so when pregnant with the first child.

Oh ok I was trying to be polite, should I have said she was a dumbass for having 100k in student loans. I think not being prudent with those loans is appropriate and polite.

Yep, you're right about the age.  I missed that.  So if she was 18 when the first kid was born that would automatically make her independent, right?  Qualify for a lot of aid and subsidized loans.

Doesn't change the rest, there's just too much that's not adding up.

To me it makes it more likely to be true because of it.  She clearly was a young mother who was going to school while having three kids.  This sounds like she needed the loans so she could live on them while going to school and take care of her kids.  I highly doubt she was working while going to school and taking care of three kids.

Where the hell is the father though?  They should be getting at least some child support I would think.  And the kids should get SS survivors benefits.  The family makes about $100K a year.  Shouldn't they be able to pay the bills for them and the three kids and use the SS to pay the student loans without going into BK?

[Deleted]

This actually does sound like a story for one of those internet funding sites. 

[Deleted]

Jul 29, 2014 7:13:23 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

Jul 29, 2014 7:04:33 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Yep, you're right about the age.  I missed that.  So if she was 18 when the first kid was born that would automatically make her independent, right?  Qualify for a lot of aid and subsidized loans.

Doesn't change the rest, there's just too much that's not adding up.

To me it makes it more likely to be true because of it.  She clearly was a young mother who was going to school while having three kids.  This sounds like she needed the loans so she could live on them while going to school and take care of her kids.  I highly doubt she was working while going to school and taking care of three kids.

Where the hell is the father though?  They should be getting at least some child support I would think.  And the kids should get SS survivors benefits.  The family makes about $100K a year.  Shouldn't they be able to pay the bills for them and the three kids and use the SS to pay the student loans without going into BK?

I was thinking the kids probably don't qualify for SS benefits.  That would require the mother to have enough quarters.  If she did, it would be very minimal . . . definitely not $2000 a month worth.  They also have to account for how they spend it . . . at least on paper.  

 

[973beachbum]

Jul 29, 2014 7:29:01 GMT -5 @southernsusana said:

Jul 29, 2014 7:13:23 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

To me it makes it more likely to be true because of it.  She clearly was a young mother who was going to school while having three kids.  This sounds like she needed the loans so she could live on them while going to school and take care of her kids.  I highly doubt she was working while going to school and taking care of three kids.

Where the hell is the father though?  They should be getting at least some child support I would think.  And the kids should get SS survivors benefits.  The family makes about $100K a year.  Shouldn't they be able to pay the bills for them and the three kids and use the SS to pay the student loans without going into BK?

I was thinking the kids probably don't qualify for SS benefits.  That would require the mother to have enough quarters.  If she did, it would be very minimal . . . definitely not $2000 a month worth.  They also have to account for how they spend it . . . at least on paper.  

 

While there is a "test" for the number of quarters you need for the kids to qualify it is much less when the person dies at an early age.  for a person who dies at 27 it may only be 8 or 9 quarters.  That is really only 2 years and it could have been part time.  And the number they would qualify for is done by some calc that figures out what they would have gotten if they had lived until full retirement age while still working that whole time.  So while it may not be the whole $2K a month it probably is something.  It would have to be a pretty good amount of monty for them to not be able to prove they spent that amount on the three kids IMO.

And this isn't a low income family like they are claiming to be.  The guy keeps saying he is a low income pastor when he makes $75K a year plus his wife works.   In my world $100K a year is pretty good money.  And that is without the SS or child support.  The loan is going to be tough but it isn't impossible.  They need to figure out why they can't pay anything on the loan on their income first which they seem unwilling to do.

[thyme4change]

Mom looks like a Kris Jenner wanna-be.

[Formerly SK]

He makes 75K (and his wife makes "less than that" so I'm guessing 50K).  100K+ income means they should have been able to make payments enough to keep the loan balance at 100K instead of it doubling in the last five years. 

'We've pretty much gone through our retirement [funds] already -- we didn't have a lot saved to begin with and now any extra money goes to the kids, as it should, and then whatever we can pay on the loans, we do,' said Mason to CNN Money.

I'm guessing this family doesn't understand how to handle money. 

[alabamagal]

Once again, the story highlights the problems of the minority of those who have problems with student loans, rather than the majority who don't.

Since she was a single mother, she likely got Federal loans, but those are only her responsibility, not the parents.  She probably needed more money to live on, plus maybe went to a more expensive school, hence the $100k in private loans, and you need a cosigner to get those.

My DD has a small private loan, was originally $12k that I cosigned for (probably down to $9k now).  She needed the private loans to go to summer school so she could finish in 3 years.  Summer school isn't covered by Federal loans due to limits per year.  It was also not covered by her scholarship.  Based on some stories like this and some other things I have read on this board, I made sure that she is covered by life insurance for over this amount.  It is hard to imagine that your young adult children will pass away, but it does happen.

[nutty]

Summer school can be paid with federal loans just not in the way that a person is used during fall and summer semester. My DD put aside the funds from her loans to pay her summer classes. I know Pell Grant do not distribute for summer term.

Edited to add that if the tuition, books and living expensive are equal to the amount of the federal loan a person gets each semester than obviously a person cannot set the funds aside from these to pay for summer classes, I understand that.

Federal loans are not distributed for the summer term on most campuses, though the amount would be the same for the tuition year it is just normally distributed Fall and Spring.

[zibazinski]

She never worked? There's no fathers of any of those children?

[Mardi Gras Audrey]

No sympathy here... he signed and knew he would be responsible if she defaulted.

If this is the same Lisa Mason (It looks like her, is a nurse, died in 2009 at age 27, and was a nurse), she was a junkie who did herself in with pills. The family already tried to sue for her death. Apparently, it's everyone else's fault (the doctor, the student loan companies, etc) that they raised a junkie who couldn't take care of her business.

www.abqjournal.com/39125/news/doc-faces-two-more-pain-pill-complaints.html

"Lisa Mason was the mother of three, a registered nurse, and had a history of dependence on prescription narcotics. Her drug-induced death in 2009 at the age of 27 was ruled an accident.

But a recent lawsuit alleges excessive and dangerous controlled substances prescribed by her physician, Dr. Barry Maron, made him complicit in her death.

In the 113 days before her death, Mason filled prescriptions for 240 hydrocodone tablets, 418 OxyContin tablets, and 1,692 tablets of oxycodone, the lawsuit states. Mason was taken by ambulance to the hospital from her home on Dec. 27, 2009, and was pronounced dead two days later.

The wrongful death lawsuit also names as a defendant Maron’s former employer, Doctor on Call clinic and medical and medical practice of Albuquerque.

Hundreds of pills

The lawsuit filed by the Mason family details the 30 prescriptions bearing Maron’s signature that Lisa Mason filled between Sept. 8, 2009, and Dec. 18, 2009. All were filled within days of each other.

For instance, on Oct. 19, Mason filled a prescription for 42 oxycodone tablets. One day later, she filled a prescription for another 90 oxycodone pills. Over the next seven days, she filled three more prescriptions totaling 420 oxycodone tablets.

Her death, according to an autopsy by the Office of Medical Investigator, was attributed to liver necrosis caused by ingested and/or injected medication. The OMI also found acetaminophen toxicity. Acetaminophen is frequently combined with opiates for pain.

The OMI report said when she was admitted to the hospital before her death, her boyfriend reported that she had been in bed for two days, hadn’t eaten and had taken a combination of oxycodone, ibuprofen, Tylenol and Subutex."


She obviously wasn't doing much mothering... laying in bed and popping pills. She was also using her cash to pay for her pills. Being in the health care industry, I can tell you that if you tried to run all of these through insurance, the insurance company would reject the claims and let the pharmacy know that it is too soon to get more of the same medication. By letting the pharmacy know this, the pharmacy would be aware that she already has a bunch of these pills at home and refuse to fill them. I'm guessing she was doctor and pharmacy shopping and paying cash to get her fix....

ETA: Yes, I know I'm an evil unsympathetic B$%^&.  The whole lack of personal responsibility thing really irritates me.  These parents should have realized that their daughter wasn't the most responsible person (CHild at 18...followed by a second at 20?) and refused to cosign more than they could afford to repay.  They weren't responsible so now it is everyone else's fault (Mean, mean student loan people, employer, doctor...)

[Deleted]

Jul 29, 2014 11:16:21 GMT -5 @anne81 said:

It's a sad story.  Life insurance should be part of the discussion if you are cosigning for huge loans that you can't afford the payments on. 

Very good idea for anyone considering cosigning for one of their kids.  Even the most dependable kid can meet an untimely end. 

[hurley1980]

Jul 29, 2014 9:17:06 GMT -5 Formerly SK said:

He makes 75K (and his wife makes "less than that" so I'm guessing 50K).  100K+ income means they should have been able to make payments enough to keep the loan balance at 100K instead of it doubling in the last five years. 

'We've pretty much gone through our retirement [funds] already -- we didn't have a lot saved to begin with and now any extra money goes to the kids, as it should, and then whatever we can pay on the loans, we do,' said Mason to CNN Money.

I'm guessing this family doesn't understand how to handle money. 

  There are so many things in this story that aren't adding up.  The pill popping thing is interesting though.  I wonder how much of her student loan money was going into funding her drug habit.  Oxy's are expensive if you are addicted because you cant just take a couple to feed your habit. Addicts take dozens of pills a day!

[Angel!]

Jul 29, 2014 12:57:38 GMT -5 Mardi Gras Audrey said:

In the 113 days before her death, Mason filled prescriptions for 240 hydrocodone tablets, 418 OxyContin tablets, and 1,692 tablets of oxycodone, the lawsuit states. Mason was taken by ambulance to the hospital from her home on Dec. 27, 2009, and was pronounced dead two days later.

...

The lawsuit filed by the Mason family details the 30 prescriptions bearing Maron’s signature that Lisa Mason filled between Sept. 8, 2009, and Dec. 18, 2009. All were filled within days of each other.

Holy crap!!

This sucks for the family, but the dad seriously should not have co-signed for student loans.  I am guessing a lot of the money went to the drug habit.

[Mardi Gras Audrey]

Yes, it does suck for the family but they understood what they were dealing with. She didn't make good decisions and they knew her history (Teenage pregnancy, taking 6 figures of loans for a degree that shouldn't cost that, etc).

Don't we always tell people don't lend more than you can afford to lose? This philosophy should extend to cosigning. Don't cosign more than you can afford to pay back.

Her parents probably get survivor's bennies for her kids, and it is probably pretty lucrative. DSis and I got $500/mo each back in the mid-90s for our mother's death. She died in her mid 20s like this lady and hadn't earned what an RN would (Our mom had various entry level jobs like cashier, stock girl, retail, dietary aide, etc).

I think survivors nowadays can get like $1500 each.

Plus they should be getting child support from whatever fathers are out there...

[Mardi Gras Audrey]

Apparently, her children would each get 75% of her social security amount.  The family would get 150%-180% of her benefit as a group.  socialsecurity.gov/survivorplan/ifyou5.htm


I would bet she made some good money as an RN.

[cktc]

I do feel sympathy for the family because they are trying to pay the loans and struggling as a result of playing by the rules. 

They could get legally divorced, put all of the assets in the wife's name, default on all of the loans, let them go to collections, and only make minimum payments based on his income until the loans die with him.

It's not honest, but it wouldn't be crippling, which I think, is the injustice here. He's trying to be an honest person and he is paying heavily for it.

[cktc]

Jul 29, 2014 13:38:02 GMT -5 Mardi Gras Audrey said:

Apparently, her children would each get 75% of her social security amount.  The family would get 150%-180% of her benefit as a group.  socialsecurity.gov/survivorplan/ifyou5.htm


I would bet she made some good money as an RN.

Survivor benefits are based on lifetime contributions. She might not have contributed very much if she had only been working a few years.

My mother passed at 26 in 1985 and my sisters and I got about $350/month. I have no idea what she was making at the time, but she had been working 10 years.

Also, survivor benefits are like child support; they should go to the child, not parental debt.

[nutty]

It would seem that maybe the SS benefits that they get if they in fact get SS benefits would go toward easing that burden of the payments.

I don't know, it seems like a money grab/go fund me/ feel sorry for us type of deal. I think most everybody knows what co signing means. I know they were not expecting her to die but it should have been talked about especially if the drug addiction is factual.

[zibazinski]

Don't play the minister card trying to get out of paying, too.

[zibazinski]

That's a pretty low salary for a minister so I'm thinking there's free housing involved, too. He should post a budget. YM could fix him!

[Mardi Gras Audrey]

Jul 29, 2014 14:01:43 GMT -5 cktc said:

Jul 29, 2014 13:38:02 GMT -5 Mardi Gras Audrey said:

Apparently, her children would each get 75% of her social security amount.  The family would get 150%-180% of her benefit as a group.  socialsecurity.gov/survivorplan/ifyou5.htm


I would bet she made some good money as an RN.

Survivor benefits are based on lifetime contributions. She might not have contributed very much if she had only been working a few years.

My mother passed at 26 in 1985 and my sisters and I got about $350/month. I have no idea what she was making at the time, but she had been working 10 years.

Also, survivor benefits are like child support; they should go to the child, not parental debt.

They are based on lifetime contributions but she was 27 with presumably a few years as an RN.  She would have made more than my Mom (who died at a close age but worked in low end jobs).  Nursing school would have been 4 years (AT MAX, if she got a BSN) but probably shorter (only need at AS to be an RN).  If she took at $100k in debt, it doesn't sound like she was working through school.  If that was the case, she should have been going fulltime.  Even if she had spent 4 years in school (with no part-time job), that leaves 5 years (18+4=22, 27-22) as an RN.  If she went back to school later (not at 18), she should have been working some kind of job between 18 and when she went to nursing school.  If her parents were supporting her and allowing her to not work while she was getting pregnant and doing nothing, that is their problem.  Even when she had children, she should have gotten a job to support her children.  Staying home with your kids is a luxury she couldn't afford (especially with no dads around) 

[emma1420]

Jul 29, 2014 14:14:59 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

That's a pretty low salary for a minister so I'm thinking there's free housing involved, too. He should post a budget. YM could fix him!

I don't know of anyone who is a minister who gets free housing anymore.  I have several friends from college who are pastors and none of them get any sort of housing subsidy.

I also thought that 75K was very good for a minister.  Granted it's CA, and I'm in the midwest where salaries are much lower (under 50k).   I don't like that they are using the minister card though.   And, I suspect that they have a combined salary of between 100K-125K and that they thought that SS benefits would cover the extra expense of their grandkids so they could go on living the way they always had.

I feel bad for the kids.  They've lost their mother (even if she was a crap mother she was still their mother), their father(s) seems to be MIA, and their grandparents are being suing and going to the press about what they have been left with.   It has to suck for them.

[zibazinski]

I don't know any minister or rabbi that doesn't. The asst minister gets a housing allowance. The church owns a house as does the temple. Cripe, the rabbi makes 175k and has a freakin house paid for. The minister, published in 2009, was at 89k. I'm assuming it went up not down.

[TheOtherMe]

In a small midwestern town where I am the church secretary, pastor only receives a housing allowance, health insurance & pension.  Monthly housing allowance is always in arrears as there is not enough income to pay him & all the overhead. Luckily his wife has a good job. 

This guy is now retired on disability & we have a temporary pastor. The deal with him is we have to pay his $1000 per month timely.

Church is still paying off building and does not own a parsonage.