2 hours to die after lethal injection drugs given.

[Deleted]

Jul 24, 2014 12:16:21 GMT -5 achelois said:

Jul 24, 2014 12:11:18 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

Is efficiency a requirement ? I don't think the objective was torture for friends and family. More like lack of training in this case, or effective drugs. I'm a death by firearms person myself. Minimum 30/caliber with a minimum 200/grain bullet with a minimum 3200/fps at about 10 feet. Laser aim zeroed at 10 feet with head immobilized and rifle in a gun vise. Gun aimed to pass through center of brain pan. Instant death with the ammo cost at about two dollars. Effective and torture free.

I personally appreciate efficiency, however I would also think it would be inefficient to have someone with a gun take three, four, five shots to kill someone. The point is: decide on an objective, and a method and then carry it out smoothly. 

I also did not Say that the objective was torture for friends and family--only that the RESULT was. 

There would only be one shot, following the guidelines in post #54. If you're not a gun person you might not understand my death by firearm procedure.

[Wisconsin Beth]

I'm not opposed to a gun solution.  Or others.  I'm opposed to a supposedly swift and humane solution that in practice is neither. 

And it's not like the ammunition industry is going to cave. 

[achelois]

Jul 24, 2014 12:22:27 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

Jul 24, 2014 12:16:21 GMT -5 achelois said:

I personally appreciate efficiency, however I would also think it would be inefficient to have someone with a gun take three, four, five shots to kill someone. The point is: decide on an objective, and a method and then carry it out smoothly. 

I also did not Say that the objective was torture for friends and family--only that the RESULT was. 

There would only be one shot, following the guidelines in post #54. If you're not a gun person you might not understand my death by firearm procedure.

Wouldnt your shooter have to have a modicum of proficiency with a firearm?  Or could you pull someone off the street?  

Somebody has to load it, sight it in, laser aim, clamp the vise, clamp the convicted person's head properly. 

[Sum Dum Gai]

Wouldnt your shooter have to have a modicum of proficiency with a firearm?

Not at all really.  The rifle being used is locked into a gun vice.  It can't be moved, the person firing the weapon isn't aiming it, he doesn't even have to touch the rifle to fire it.  They can do it with a ring through the trigger guard and a string.  The same way they fire weapons on Myth Busters, or test fire older weapons at a range that they don't completely trust not to misfire.

The person setting the rig up would need training, obviously.  However once the rig is set up and a test shot has been fired, any moron could do the actual execution.

[achelois]

Once the iv is in, any moron can push the drugs and do the actual execution. The person putting in the iv would need training. 

The ones in charge just need to decide on which drugs, just like someone needed to decide on the calibre of the bullet, etc. 

I dont have any vested interest in which method is used.  I dont care if it is a gun or drugs or whatever. I just want the method of execution to be efficient, whatever it is. That is all I said. With the firearm scenario, if done properly, needing only one bullet could certainly be considered EFFICIENT. 

ef·fi·cient
iˈfiSHənt/
adjective
(especially of a system or machine) achieving maximum productivity with minimum wasted effort or expense.
"fluorescent lamps are efficient at converting electricity into light"
(of a person) working in a well-organized and competent way.
"an efficient administrator"
synonyms: organized, methodical, systematic, logical, orderly, businesslike, streamlined, productive, effective, cost-effective, labor-saving More
antonyms: disorganized, incompetent
preventing the wasteful use of a particular resource.
suffix: -efficient
"an energy-efficient heating system"
Origin

late Middle English (in the sense ‘making, causing,’ usually in efficient cause): from Latin efficient- ‘accomplishing,’ from the verb efficere (see effect). The current sense dates from the late 18th cent.
Translate efficient to
Use over time for: efficient

[Sum Dum Gai]

Once the iv is in, any moron can push the drugs and do the actual execution.

Unless they push too quickly and blow the vein, or they dislodge the IV while injecting the drugs, or the dosage doesn't match the body chemistry of the person being executed, and even when it works the person doesn't die instantly.  The previous drug cocktail took an average of 2 minutes to kill, the new one clearly takes longer.

A bullet through the brain stem is instantaneous, doesn't rely on the body chemistry of the person being executed, and doesn't get screwed up by a junkie who's trashed their veins.

Delivering a bullet to a specific area reliably is an engineering challenge that would be pretty easy to solve.  Painlessly poisoning somebody to death in a relatively quick manner has a lot more variables.

[achelois]

Jul 24, 2014 13:01:20 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

Once the iv is in, any moron can push the drugs and do the actual execution.

Unless they push too quickly and blow the vein, or they dislodge the IV while injecting the drugs, or the dosage doesn't match the body chemistry of the person being executed, and even when it works the person doesn't die instantly.  The previous drug cocktail took an average of 2 minutes to kill, the new one clearly takes longer.

A bullet through the brain stem is instantaneous, doesn't rely on the body chemistry of the person being executed, and doesn't get screwed up by a junkie who's trashed their veins.

I dont give  a rat's ass which method is used. Possibly that will be more clear than just saying I dont have a vested interest in which method is used. Apparently you and jma just want to argue the merits of one method versus another. 

Yes, the new drug cocktail IS obviously inefficient. THAT WAS MY POINT. If they are going to go with lethal injection, they need to have a combination of drugs that will accomplish the execution quickly and reliably in the shortest amount of time. 

If they decide to use a firearm, they need to have a method, possibly as described in post 54, that will accomplish the job quickly and reliably and in the shortest amount of time. 


Whatever the chosen method, it needs to be done right. In this case, they went with lethal injection, and they screwed it up. 

[NoNamePerson]

Guillotine? Or has that been suggested on the other pages. Didn't read thru all the posts.

[achelois]

Guillotine worked for the French. 

It might be too tempting to line up the politicians instead of the criminals, since you cant always differentiate among them with any degree of certainty. 

[Wisconsin Beth]

Jul 24, 2014 13:05:24 GMT -5 NoNamePerson said:

Guillotine? Or has that been suggested on the other pages. Didn't read thru all the posts.

Seems awfully messy.  But then again it's not like a gunshot to the head is particular fun to clean up either (I'm assuming at any rate...)

[NoNamePerson]

Jul 24, 2014 13:12:30 GMT -5 Wisconsin Beth said:

Jul 24, 2014 13:05:24 GMT -5 NoNamePerson said:

Guillotine? Or has that been suggested on the other pages. Didn't read thru all the posts.

Seems awfully messy.  But then again it's not like a gunshot to the head is particular fun to clean up either (I'm assuming at any rate...)

Nah, just put a plastic bag in the basket that catches the head. A new use for those plastic bags that everyone says should be banned   

[mmhmm]

I suppose the condemned could be given a choice as to which method he/she would prefer. Each would need to be explained in detail prior to the choice being made. Between being shot in the head, guillotined, or lethal injection - which would you choose?

[chiver78]

isn't that how it used to be in some states? that the condemned could choose from the options allowed in that state.

[mmhmm]

Jul 24, 2014 13:30:39 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

isn't that how it used to be in some states? that the condemned could choose from the options allowed in that state.

I'm not sure some states don't still have that option, chiver. Some might.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Bring back the gas chambers.  Carbon monoxide is apparently an easy way to die, many do so in their sleep and never wake up.

[chiver78]

I was thinking in states where there was more than one method. I thought I remember hearing about someone opting for firing squad a few years ago and I thought "why would you ever go for that?!" but if lethal injection is proving to be not-so-straightforward anymore, that might be a better option.

[achelois]

If I could choose the types and amounts of drugs, I would choose injection. I could even start my own IV. 

The only reason there are problems with the lethal injection is that untrained people are in charge of the drugs/ivs. 

[Sum Dum Gai]

Between being shot in the head, guillotined, or lethal injection - which would you choose?

Shot in the head, from behind please.

Assuming we're using a method similar to the one posted in this thread.  If it's deputy doofus carefully aiming from 20 feet I wouldn't like it as much.

[Wisconsin Beth]

I think I chose to live my life so that I don't have to pick one. 

[chiver78]

Jul 24, 2014 13:45:00 GMT -5 Wisconsin Beth said:

I think I chose to live my life so that I don't have to pick one. 

ditto. I probably should have added that to my last post haha.

[Tennesseer]

Jul 24, 2014 13:37:21 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

I was thinking in states where there was more than one method. I thought I remember hearing about someone opting for firing squad a few years ago and I thought "why would you ever go for that?!" but if lethal injection is proving to be not-so-straightforward anymore, that might be a better option.

Tennessee-Authorizes lethal injection for those whose capital offense occurred after December 31, 1998; those who committed the offense before that date may select electrocution by written waiver. As of 2014, electrocution is authorized if lethal injection drugs are not available.

Other state methods here:

Death Penalty Information Center

[Peace Of Mind]

Jul 24, 2014 11:06:37 GMT -5 Sam_2.0 said:

So heavy sedative + cyanide? Honestly though firing squad "looks" worse, but would probably result in the least amount of suffering if you used skilled marksmen. I think we turn to drugs because then it just looks like someone goes to sleep and we can divorce ourselves from the reality of death.

 and it's a lot less messy. 

Seems awfully messy. But then again it's not like a gunshot to the head is particular fun to clean up either (I'm assuming at any rate...)

Oops - Just got to page 3 and Beth already mentioned that.

[greeniis10]

Jul 24, 2014 13:42:13 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

Between being shot in the head, guillotined, or lethal injection - which would you choose?

Shot in the head, from behind please.

Assuming we're using a method similar to the one posted in this thread.  If it's deputy doofus carefully aiming from 20 feet I wouldn't like it as much.

Not picking on you specifically, Shaun, but it's been mentioned a couple of times on this thread about uneducated or untrained prison employees.  I can't speak for everywhere, of course, but at the prison DS2 works at they are trained extensively (and continually) in both medical care and procedures and they have to pass rigorous target practices of varying weapons, targets, and conditions every 6 months.  Doesn't matter how long you've worked there, if you don't pass your shooting tests, you're gone. 

DS2 never had any interest in the medical field prior to this job, but he's learned so much that he's fascinated by it now.  Not to mention has gotten over his queasiness around blood and guts, since that is a regular feature of this job.

I'll have to ask him what they've been told recently about the lethal injection messes.

[EVT1]

Jul 24, 2014 9:17:16 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Bring back the firing squad. Cheap and effective.

Only relative to other methods.

Life in prison is much cheaper than all of them- and is just as effective. The only missing element is bloodlust/revenge/etc.

Of course this case turned into torture- and anyone celebrating that is sick in the head.  This needs to be fixed- I suggest a moratorium on executions until we grow up and end the practice.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Unfortunately, life in prison is not just as effective.  It doesn't stop them from killing prison guards.  Executing them stops them from killing prison guards.  One way is obviously way more effective if your intention is to stop that person from killing others.

[achelois]

Jul 24, 2014 14:45:03 GMT -5 greeniis10 said:

Jul 24, 2014 13:42:13 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

Shot in the head, from behind please.

Assuming we're using a method similar to the one posted in this thread.  If it's deputy doofus carefully aiming from 20 feet I wouldn't like it as much.

Not picking on you specifically, Shaun, but it's been mentioned a couple of times on this thread about uneducated or untrained prison employees.  I can't speak for everywhere, of course, but at the prison DS2 works at they are trained extensively (and continually) in both medical care and procedures and they have to pass rigorous target practices of varying weapons, targets, and conditions every 6 months.  Doesn't matter how long you've worked there, if you don't pass your shooting tests, you're gone. 

DS2 never had any interest in the medical field prior to this job, but he's learned so much that he's fascinated by it now.  Not to mention has gotten over his queasiness around blood and guts, since that is a regular feature of this job.

I'll have to ask him what they've been told recently about the lethal injection messes.

Please dont take offense on behalf of your son. I made a comment about that earlier. It is not meant as a slight to the staff employee. Even if your son is highly proficient in starting IVs, etc., he is not going to be the one (nor is any ordinary staff person) responsible for the selection of which drugs will be used. That is going to be a decision way above his paygrade, and judging by the results, it is apparent that persons lacking sufficient knowledge chose this drug combo. 

I could do it better myself. So could Shooby and other nurses here, even those without anesthesia training. I wouldnt, but I could. It actually is very easy to kill someone with the drugs we have today, just those used in the OR daily,  so to botch things up this badly seems to require someone with NO idea what they are doing. I cant believe they had any medical input. 

Even highly proficient persons with recent practice may have off moments under pressure. Who knows if all prisons have staff with recent practice or who is used in the execution process. I dont. My ex was a Corrections Officer. No insult was intended on my part. I apologize if what I said seemed to be one. 

[Sum Dum Gai]

Not picking on you specifically, Shaun, but it's been mentioned a couple of times on this thread about uneducated or untrained prison employees. I can't speak for everywhere, of course, but at the prison DS2 works at they are trained extensively (and continually) in both medical care and procedures and they have to pass rigorous target practices of varying weapons, targets, and conditions every 6 months. Doesn't matter how long you've worked there, if you don't pass your shooting tests, you're gone.

Which is fine, but how do I know the guy aiming at me is the guy who easily passes his shooting test or the guy who struggles with it?  Do I trust him to make the shot when a human life is on the line?  What if he doesn't really want to do it?  The human factor introduces too much chance of a miss, or a grazing shot.  If I was going to get shot in the head I'd want it to be over after just one shot, and I don't trust another person holding a rifle to do that.  A rifle locked into a gun vice that already shot at the exact spot my head is currently in twice isn't going to miss, flinch, or whatever.

[NoNamePerson]

Jul 24, 2014 14:47:17 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Jul 24, 2014 9:17:16 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Bring back the firing squad. Cheap and effective.

Only relative to other methods.

Life in prison is much cheaper than all of them- and is just as effective. The only missing element is bloodlust/revenge/etc.

Of course this case turned into torture- and anyone celebrating that is sick in the head.  This needs to be fixed- I suggest a moratorium on executions until we grow up and end the practice.

How about a moratorium on murder and rape and so on and so on. Oh wait, that isn't going to happen is it.

I can't work up to much sympathy for the John Wayne Gacy, Ted Bundy's of the world that they had to die rather than spend their lives in prison.

[EVT1]

Jul 24, 2014 15:05:44 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Unfortunately, life in prison is not just as effective.  It doesn't stop them from killing prison guards.  Executing them stops them from killing prison guards.  One way is obviously way more effective if your intention is to stop that person from killing others.

 Is there a rash of murdered prison guards by death row inmates or even lifers I don't know about?  I think that is an extremely weak argument for the death penalty.

[EVT1]

Jul 24, 2014 16:12:57 GMT -5 NoNamePerson said:

Jul 24, 2014 14:47:17 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Only relative to other methods.

Life in prison is much cheaper than all of them- and is just as effective. The only missing element is bloodlust/revenge/etc.

Of course this case turned into torture- and anyone celebrating that is sick in the head.  This needs to be fixed- I suggest a moratorium on executions until we grow up and end the practice.

How about a moratorium on murder and rape and so on and so on. Oh wait, that isn't going to happen is it.

I can't work up to much sympathy for the John Wayne Gacy, Ted Bundy's of the world that they had to die rather than spend their lives in prison.

What does sympathy have to do with anything?  It is simply cheaper to lock them up and throw away the key.

But maybe have some sympathy for those on death row that are innocent?

The pro-murder people always throw out the most vile, guilty POS in the system to use as an example of why they should be put down and we need the death penalty, nary a mention of the inevitable conclusion that the government will kill innocent people in the process.  That is unacceptable to me.  It has nothing to do with sympathy for the truly guilty.