Malaysian Plane shot down by Russian Border 290 souls lost

[Artemis Windsong]

Jul 17, 2014 11:15:07 GMT -5 Opti said:

Artemis, can you change Boarder to Border in your thread title?

I read the thread as being the plane was shot down by some Russian living(boarding) at someone's place.

Thanks!

Sorry about the spelling.  I was shocked.  It's corrected.

[truthbound]

Jul 17, 2014 11:22:30 GMT -5 @anne81 said:

When I first read this I thought it was the Malaysian flight that went missing months ago.

I was wondering when he conspiracy theories would start myself lol.

[marvholly]

ALL the news for the past 24 hr is VERY frightening: plane & Israel’s ground force incursion. The market reacted a bit like I feel. I’m afraid of seeing US ‘boots on the ground’ in one or both places. I hope we don’t need to BUT…….not sure if anything else will work. This is certainly a case of lose/lose.

As I heard/read planes have been flying that route right along including the same airline company the same route at the same time the previous day. Nice to seel all or mostly all have now stopped.

I have not checked the news, yet, this morning.

[Spellbound454]

I don't think there is any indication that there will be foreign "boots on the ground" in either region.

The rebel fighting in the Ukraine was a couple of weeks from defeat. They were not getting much support from Russia.

It looks like this plane was shot down by a BUK surface-to-air missile.

The Russian military, Rebel fighters and Ukraine military..... all have this weapon.

Rebel fighters have denied they have this capability but a missile system was seen in this rebel controlled area by journalists from the AP

Its just a question of having a full enquiry and holding the guilty to account.

[Virgil Showlion]

The rebel fighting in the Ukraine was a couple of weeks from defeat.

According to whom? The Ukrainians?

This thing has all the makings of a protracted civil war.

[Tennesseer]

I do not see Ukraine's hand in this. They would have nothing to gain in shooting down a plane which had flown knowingly over most of the country, from the northwest to the southeast.

I don't see the missile having been launched from Russia proper.   Russia and their military and civilian air traffic controllers would have known who and what the aircraft was.

That leaves the separatists and their trigger happy 'troops'.  I do see Russian military having taught them how to use the weaponry, but in their zeal to shoot down yet another Ukraine aircraft, the separatists blew it.  Does not look good for their cause.

[Spellbound454]

According to whom? The Ukrainians?

According to the Rebels.
There are also reports that the rebels had left their posts prior to this event and the Ukrainian forces were making advances.

""They want to live in Russia," said Girkin, also known by his nom de guerre, Igor Strelkov. "But when they tried to assert this right, Russia doesn't want to help." He said he believed the troops had only "two or three weeks" before they were defeated if Russia did not step in."

america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/7/5/ukraine-claims-victoryinrebelstronghold.html

This could be the end of the conflict........or not as the case may be.

[Virgil Showlion]

Jul 18, 2014 6:55:10 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

I do not see Ukraine's hand in this. They would have nothing to gain in shooting down a plane which had flown knowingly over most of the country, from the northwest to the southeast.

I don't see the missile having been launched from Russia proper.   Russia and their military and civilian air traffic controllers would have known who and what the aircraft was.

That leaves the separatists and their trigger happy 'troops'.  I do see Russian military having taught them how to use the weaponry, but in their zeal to shoot down yet another Ukraine aircraft, the separatists blew it.  Does not look good for their cause.

Or it could have been a trigger happy Ukrainian detachment, or a trigger happy Russian detachment.

All of them are denying it. There are bits of evidence implicating all three. I see no reason to trust any one over the others.

[Virgil Showlion]

Jul 18, 2014 7:05:20 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

According to whom? The Ukrainians?

According to the Rebels.
There are also reports that the rebels had left their posts prior to this event and the Ukrainian forces were making advances.

""They want to live in Russia," said Girkin, also known by his nom de guerre, Igor Strelkov. "But when they tried to assert this right, Russia doesn't want to help." He said he believed the troops had only "two or three weeks" before they were defeated if Russia did not step in."

america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/7/5/ukraine-claims-victoryinrebelstronghold.html

This could be the end of the conflict........or not as the case may be.

It would mean a shift towards guerrilla warfare.

No way the fighting stops in a few weeks. The best case scenario is that the Ukraine will have to maintain a military presence there for months.

[Spellbound454]

The Ukrainian military were thought to be winning though, Virgil.

It seems the flight recorders are in the hands of the Rebels....although if the plane was hit by a missile there might not be much on them.
There was certainly no distress call.

The investigators need the wreckage to piece together what happened....and the site, by the looks of things, has been contaminated with all sorts of people trampling all over it.

It could seriously hamper any prosecution which may arise from this.....unless the various interests start co-operating.

[billisonboard]

Jul 18, 2014 5:39:24 GMT -5 marvholly said:

ALL the news for the past 24 hr is VERY frightening: plane & Israel’s ground force incursion. The market reacted a bit like I feel. I’m afraid of seeing US ‘boots on the ground’ in one or both places. I hope we don’t need to BUT…….not sure if anything else will work. ...

I don't see the presence of US troops solving either problem.

[jkapp]

MSN just ran a story that showed an Australian woman who lost family members in both the Malaysian airline that went missing and now this one that was shot down...what are the frickin' odds of that?!

[Wisconsin Beth]

Apparently there were a bunch (up to 100) International AIDS researchers on their way to a conference in Australia on board.   There's a couple of articles in the Washington Post. 

www.washingtonpost.com/world/aids-researcher-joep-lange-confirmed-among-dead-in-malaysia-jet-shoot-down/2014/07/17/4869c6a2-0e2d-11e4-8c9a-923ecc0c7d23_story.html

Members of the international HIV research community are reeling from the news that many of their own, including world-renowned AIDS researcher Joep Lange, perished when Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was shot down Thursday over eastern Ukraine.

The victims were on their way to the International AIDS Conference that begins this weekend in Melbourne, Australia, a trip halfway around the world that necessitated a change of planes in Kuala Lumpur.

The identities of the victims have not been officially confirmed by the airlines. But Lange’s office in Amsterdam confirmed in a statement that he died in the crash

[Tennesseer]

This must have been horrifying:

One pensioner told how a woman smashed though her roof: "There was a howling noise and everything started to rattle. Then objects started falling out of the sky," said Irina Tipunova, 65. "And then I heard a roar and she landed in the kitchen."

Obama condemns Russia after airliner downed in Ukraine

[Artemis Windsong]

Another mess.  A surmise.  Since the area was under surveillance, the satellites probably picked up where the rocket was shot from and might possibly be able to focus in on who was there. 

Just a theory.  Joe says to Sam.  Push that button and see what happens.
Theory 2.  Someone spilled a drink on the key board.

So sad all around.  Aids research has taken a tremendous hit.

Who on that airplane could have been the main target?

[Tennesseer]

Jul 18, 2014 16:53:50 GMT -5 Artemis Windsong said:

Another mess.  A surmise.  Since the area was under surveillance, the satellites probably picked up where the rocket was shot from and might possibly be able to focus in on who was there. 

Just a theory.  Joe says to Sam.  Push that button and see what happens.
Theory 2.  Someone spilled a drink on the key board.

So sad all around.  Aids research has taken a tremendous hit.

Who on that airplane could have been the main target?

No one/everyone if the separatists thought it was a Ukraine military transport plane (which it sounds like they thought it was).

[EVT1]

This is really sickening. Every time political assholes have a dick waving contest innocent people end up paying for it.

They aren't even recovering bodies.

[Spellbound454]

I know.... they aren't being allowed access to the site. People are looting, for heavens sake, and the site has been contaminated with people wandering all over it.

It seems quite feasible that this plane was shot down by Rebel fighters who thought it was a military plane.

Locals are taking pictures of bodies and then tweeting them....without any thought to public decency, or the families...Just rather disgustingly, trying to titivate the gore gobblers.


All eyes are on Putin.....How much control does he have over the Rebels...If any?

He has gone strangely quiet.

[ZaireinHD]

An Australian woman, Kaylene Mann, tragically lost her brother and her sister-in-law in the Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 disappearance in March. In an unbelievable twist of fate, Mann's stepdaughter was killed yesterday when MH17 was shot down over eastern Ukraine.

brother / sister in law means her husbands family?
stepdaughter I would think is her husbands daughter?

why report this woman and not her husband?
it's his family

[mmhmm]

Her sister-in-law, ZaireinHD, would have been her brother's wife. Both her brother and his wife were lost when MH370 disappeared. The stepdaughter would, indeed, be her husband's child; however, we don't know if her husband is still living or if they're, perhaps, no longer together. It was this woman to whom the media were speaking. That's why they've got her story, I'd guess.

[Tennesseer]

Jul 19, 2014 1:24:26 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

I know.... they aren't being allowed access to the site. People are looting, for heavens sake, and the site has been contaminated with people wandering all over it.

Authorities are allegedly telling the victims' families to cancel the victims' credit cards.  Supposedly, looters have taken credit cards out of the deads' wallets.

Really low if true.

[ZaireinHD]

Jul 19, 2014 8:28:02 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Her sister-in-law, ZaireinHD, would have been her brother's wife. Both her brother and his wife were lost when MH370 disappeared. The stepdaughter would, indeed, be her husband's child; however, we don't know if her husband is still living or if they're, perhaps, no longer together. It was this woman to whom the media were speaking. That's why they've got her story, I'd guess.

OH thanks so much mmHmm
little embarrassed to say how confusing that was
now I get it!

[mmhmm]

Jul 19, 2014 10:46:54 GMT -5 ZaireinHD said:

Jul 19, 2014 8:28:02 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Her sister-in-law, ZaireinHD, would have been her brother's wife. Both her brother and his wife were lost when MH370 disappeared. The stepdaughter would, indeed, be her husband's child; however, we don't know if her husband is still living or if they're, perhaps, no longer together. It was this woman to whom the media were speaking. That's why they've got her story, I'd guess.

OH thanks so much mmHmm
little embarrassed to say how confusing that was
now I get it!

LOL! I've got a little guy in my head I call Oscar. He's my file clerk. Every once in awhile, Oscar gets lost, or drunk, or both. He can't find anything! Sounds like you have an "Oscar" too! 

[Virgil Showlion]

An interesting perspective on the MH17 tragedy.

For those who haven't been following the story for a while, a quick summary of the current state of affairs:

• the west (particularly western governments [i.e. NATO] and the western media) are positive: it was Russia, or possibly pro-Russian rebels with the assistance of Russia; there is no doubt
  
• two weeks ago, satellite photos were released containing "definitive evidence" that the missile to bring down MH17 was fired from Russian-controlled territory
  
• Russia has categorically denied involvement in the shooting down of the passenger jet; the Russian media continues to present "definitive evidence" implicating NATO and the Ukraine (and thus exonerating Russia); Pres. Putin's approval numbers are the highest they've ever been
• all parties and media outlets more or less agree on three facts:
  
  • all three "potentials" (Russia, the Ukraine, and the pro-Russian rebels) controlled at least a few BUK surface-to-air missiles and thus had the capability to launch the attack
    
  • none of the potentials would benefit from shooting down MH17 ipso facto; the attack on the plane was almost certainly a mistake
    
  • the all-important flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder are in the possession of pro-Russian rebels; the rebels claim for safekeeping, to prevent tampering by NATO; the west claims to bury evidence, to allow tampering by the real culprits
    

• shortly after the plane was brought down, the Ukraine released several videos "definitively linking" the attack to pro-Russian rebels; many experts subsequently went on record denouncing the videos as doctored

• at about the same time, Russian and Turkish news outlets released several videos "definitively linking" the attack to Ukrainian officials; many experts subsequently went on record denouncing these videos as doctored

• as recently as a day ago, the Russians have built up significant air and ground forces on their western border with Ukraine, running drills in a demonstration of military might (basically flexing their military muscle)
• the US and Russia have seen a number of Cold War -esque exchanges over the past several months, including a Russian fighter jet buzzing the coast of California, the US illegally seizing Russian oligarchs' assets in Belgium and Sweden, and Russia chasing away a US spy plane near the Russia-Ukraine border; these exchanges have gone virtually unreported in the US MSM
• several non-mainstream, semi-credible news sources have claimed that the US is "sitting on" intelligence that controverts the Ukrainian narrative, citing anonymous US officials
  

So, with that out of the way...

Back on July 17th, I presented a blue sky theory (and again here) that the demise of MH17 was an accident not of the kind suggested by the Ukrainian narrative. The theory posits that the intended target of the attack was in fact Pres. Vladimir Putin himself. Proponents of the theory point out that the Russian equivalent of "Air Force One", carrying Pres. Putin, was in the vicinity (and in fact, flying along the same flight path) as MH17, separated by a matter of minutes. As the second link above shows, the dimensions of the two aircraft are identical, and the colourations are undeniably similar. It's also worthwhile to note that Pres. Putin was flying back from a South American conference in which the BRICS nations had just concluded setting up an international term loan facility in direct competition with the (US- and Europe-backed) IMF.

Hence the theory in a nutshell is that NATO, with the assistance of the Ukrainians, conspired to assassinate Pres. Putin and then portray the act as mistaken friendly fire by pro-Russian rebels, thus eliminating a rival and crippling the relationship between Russia and the rebels in one fell swoop. Only they accidentally shot down the wrong plane. Upon realizing their mistake, they did the next best thing they could: blame the Russian rebels (under the influence of Russia) for the attack.

Various sites presented additional evidence to support this theory, none of which I found particularly definitive or verifiable. However a friend recently sent me a link to this article by a German pilot, Peter Haisenko:

www.globalresearch.ca/german-pilot-speaks-out-shocking-analysis-of-the-shooting-down-of-malaysian-mh17/5394111

The article comes complete with pictures and analysis, and I highly recommend it to anybody still interested in MH17. The article itself doesn't actually promote the "botched assassination" theory, although it mentions it briefly at the end as one of the possible explanations for the evidence.

The evidence, which I consider to be reasonably compelling, suggests (or "proves", according to Mr. Haisenko, who indicates the analysis is "definitely not speculation") that the cockpit of MH17 was penetrated by "30 millimeter caliber projectiles"--or in other words, gunfire from one or more fighter jets. He also contends (with evidence presented in the article) that the explosion that brought down MH17 was in fact originally confined to the cockpit, and was explosive rather than implosive in nature, suggesting the cockpit was structurally compromised and subsequently experienced explosive decompression.

I'm not going to excerpt the article here since this post is already huge, but definitely read the article and tell me what you think about it. Mr. Haisenko's analysis is extensive and detailed. He's obviously very knowledgeable in the subjects of aircraft and aircraft weaponry. I'm interested in knowing whether anyone else finds his claims as compelling as I do.

As a final note in all of this, while many people reject alternative theories based on the (US-supplied) satellite photo evidence supporting the Ukrainian narrative, other sites remind us that the US has repeatedly been caught doctoring and outright fabricating satellite photo evidence as a pretext for war. Hence the notion of whipping up a batch of fresh evidence to support the Ukrainian narrative isn't quite as far-fetched as it may once have been.

I'm still a fence-sitter, although this new evidence does trouble me. I don't know how else to explain the images in Mr. Haisenko's article, and unfortunately I'm well past the point where I believe it's "beyond" or "above" NATO and the US to attempt something like this.

Caveat lector.

[Virgil Showlion]

Whoops. Typo. No Justin Bieber or Kim Kardashian involved with MH17. Just hundreds of dead people, an international incident, and possible pretext to war.

While you're here, though, you might as well read and respond to my update on the tragedy in Reply #63.

Anybody.

[Deleted]

Virgil... you should be shot (ping pong ball out of a "potato gun", maybe?) for getting people's hopes up like that.

I was all ready to celebrate no more Biebs or Kim K. stories...

[Virgil Showlion]

If you can't beat 'em, Richard, join 'em.

But seriously: while you're here, give the Haisenko article a peek.

[billisonboard]

Sir Virgil, I read your post earlier. I will now click on the link and see if I can get into the article but I swore if it is a Rickety Ghastly link .... 

[Virgil Showlion]

Aug 4, 2014 21:38:32 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Sir Virgil, I read your post earlier. I will now click on the link and see if I can get into the article but I swore if it is a Rickety Ghastly link .... 

A wise man once told me, "I like to be exposed to thought. I work to understand so that I can counter intelligently if that is what I feel I should be doing. Quick labeling of the article as "pathological thought" isn't my style."

[billisonboard]

Aug 4, 2014 21:45:45 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Aug 4, 2014 21:38:32 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Sir Virgil, I read your post earlier. I will now click on the link and see if I can get into the article but I swore if it is a Rickety Ghastly link .... 

A wise man once told me, "I like to be exposed to thought. I work to understand so that I can counter intelligently if that is what I feel I should be doing. Quick labeling of the article as "pathological thought" isn't my style."

Okay I read, looked at the pictures as a pdf as requested and I just don't have the expertise to see what the article is claiming they show nor judge whether the explanations make sense. Might some of the damage have come once it was on the ground?