Elderly relatives & contemplation $$$ wise UPDATE

[Deleted]

I went to visit my 98-year-old aunt today. She has major swelling of the face and feet plus shortness of breath. She inches herself to the bathroom to change her pad.

But when I volunteered to take her to the hospital, she said she couldn't go "dirty." I offered a sponge bath (no way I could get her in/out of the tub), but that wasn't enough. And I totally understood. Even though doctors and nurses have seen it "all," I wouldn't want them telling stories about ME.

She's the poster child for all that could go wrong money-wise. She had a paid-for house and pension/annuity/ss when she retired (she gets $3000 a month now). But she also had a con-man brother and too much greed to settle for low cd rates. She wanted enough money to start a foundation.

They went into leveraged real estate, using her house and savings as the seed money. Thank God he's dead now, but he did manage to move all her properties into his name before he died, which is something of a legal mess. She was foreclosed on three or four years ago, but they haven't taken possession. How do you kick an elderly teacher into the streets when she's taught most of the big-shots in the area over time? They can't and haven't although they keep warning my cousin "when . . . ". She understands.

Every time I think about her, I get more contemplative about my own retirement. I don't need to be rich. I want to be "comfortable." I don't care much about clothes or experiences like traveling. I just don't want to worry about where my house payment or grocery money is coming from. I want to be able to afford my expensive ($150 a month and I'm only 57) meds. Ironically, she takes one med and an aspirin every day.

Anyway, it was one of those days today when you try to picture your own retirement. That wasn't what I had pictured for me.

[Deleted]

Your lawyer is right. There was a $20,000 trust fund set up for my sister's and my education back in 1960. Before I went to college in 1971, it had been hit up for my mother (the originator who had a mental problem so we no longer lived with her) as well as stuff like braces for us kids. We still went to college, but that was through SS and VA benefits.

[ilovedolphins]

I too have always wondered how my retirement would go. I want to retire early (55 or 60) while my health is good so that I can spend some good quality time with my kids and hopefully grandkids by then. If I didn't have to worry about what may happen health wise I would retire now (48) from full time and just work part time.

And I have a feeling all the stress I endure at work will not help my health either.

[lynda in iowa]

southernsusana, I'm giving you karma because you are so good to your aunt to visit and want to help her. Bless her heart and yours.

[marvholly]

southernsusana
Get your aunt to a hospital NOW!!!!

She appears to have CHF (congestive heart failure) which WILL kill her if left untreated. Medicare will cover this.

[Deleted]

Maryholly, I agree that it is congestive heart failure. She isn't not in the hospital because of the cost. Not only does she have Medicare, she is covered by teachers' insurance as a retiree as well.

But things aren't always as simple as we make them appear on a message board. I offered and she refused. If her daughter hadn't been arriving last night, I might have been more adamant.

[Urban Chicago]

I offered and she refused.

I really do understand how difficult this is, but there is a point where you just can't let them refuse.

I've been told that the best thing to say is: "We're going to the hospital (or I've called and ambulance) now. You can be angry with me later after the doctors have checked you out."

[Gardening Grandma]

Every time I think about her, I get more contemplative about my own retirement. I don't need to be rich. I want to be "comfortable."

This is exactly how I feel too. As long as I have all my marbles, I'm not too worried, but if I were to develop dementia, it's a whole nother ballgame. I'd be totally dependent on relatives who might have good intentions, but lack the financial skills to manage my assets for me.

[Deleted]

I really do understand how difficult this is, but there is a point where you just can't let them refuse.

I've been told that the best thing to say is: "We're going to the hospital (or I've called and ambulance) now. You can be angry with me later after the doctors have checked you out."

I did call my cousin (her daughter) to tell her that I was taking her, but then my aunt got all upset. Since her daughter would be there in a matter of hours, I decided not to upset her any more.

She wasn't having a heart attack. She just needs to go to the hospital. A few hours wouldn't make any difference.

But I do need to follow up with my cousin because I'm almost willing to bet that she hasn't taken her mother to the hospital either.

[honeybunny66]

Sorry, but sometimes a few hours will make a difference - take it from someone who knows.

[Deleted]

Sorry, but sometimes a few hours will make a difference - take it from someone who knows.

Her doctor heard all her symptoms and made her an appointment for Tuesday. He did not say bring her in today or take her to the hospital immediately.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

I really do understand how difficult this is, but there is a point where you just can't let them refuse.

I've been told that the best thing to say is: "We're going to the hospital (or I've called and ambulance) now. You can be angry with me later after the doctors have checked you out."

Umm, they CAN refuse and even if EMS is there, there is nothing that they can do, they cannot force the person to the hospital.

Last fall, I noticed my elderly neighbor had not picked up her newspaper from her doorstep in a couple days. Her lights were on, blinds open. I called and banged on her door and windows several times and didn't get any answer. I finally called my apartment management and they brought over a pass key. We tried to get her attention again and then he unlocked the door, the internal lock was thrown. So management went to get a hacksaw to break in, I called 911. EMS and the police showed up just as he was getting through the lock, in fact, the police finished up. EMS went in.

My neighbor was asleep in bed. She didn't hear ANYTHING (even though her hearing is normal). EMS checked her out and wanted to take her to the hospital and she refused. I tried to talk her into going and she refused. They cannot take her against her will and will not, even at a relative's request (I asked).

Oh, and she was furious with me too.

[Urban Chicago]

I know they can refuse to go to the hospital, but for your own Karma's sake, you do have to do all you can, even if that means doing so over objections or if it will get the person angry with you.

And sometimes, an authoritarian tone and the phrasing "we are going to the hospital now" can get the job done. Sometimes the elderly person won't even know that they can refuse.

Karma to Susanna and mich1 for doing all they could!

[Deleted]

Let me throw out another possibility- DH has used the expression "face-to-the-wall syndrome" to describe an old person just deciding life wasn't worth living anymore. My great-grandmother died 3 days after she entered a nursing home. My grandmother on the other side of the family lasted a few months. If I were 98 and struggling even to get to the bathroom to change (incontinence?) pads I don't think I'd be interested in being dragged to the hospital and having tubes and needles stuck all over me for a few days, only to go back home to the Same Old Stuff.

I'm not sure what the answer is, and I'm adding to southernsusana's karma, but I can see why her aunt may not want to bother with medical intervention at this point.

[Gardening Grandma]

Susanna,
I gave you karma for your compassion and good sense.

My last part time job was for an eldercare agency. Yes, sometimes, calling 911 and then telling them, "I've already called 911" works. But no one can force them to be transported to the hospital if they refuse. The EMTs will try to pursuade them, but they won't drag them off against their will.

Susanna did all the right things, imo.

[resolution]

I can understand how the situation has made you contemplate your own future. I had similar feelings when helping out an elderly neighbor that was living in poverty and refusing medical services.

Most areas have an Adult Protective Services and they will do a home visit and make an assessment of if the person is competent to make health decisions. They can force the person into the hospital if needed and if they are not competent to make the choice themselves. This can be a tough choice to make the call because you are balancing their freedom of choice against their health and wellbeing. This is something that you should seriously consider for your aunt if her daughter does not convince her to go to the hospital. In the end we had to call them for our neighbor to get him medical treatment, and although it was a tough choice at the time we are glad that we made the call.

[Gardening Grandma]

Feb 28, 2011 16:05:44 GMT -5 resolution said:

I can understand how the situation has made you contemplate your own future. I had similar feelings when helping out an elderly neighbor that was living in poverty and refusing medical services.

Most areas have an Adult Protective Services and they will do a home visit and make an assessment of if the person is competent to make health decisions. They can force the person into the hospital if needed and if they are not competent to make the choice themselves. This can be a tough choice to make the call because you are balancing their freedom of choice against their health and wellbeing. This is something that you should seriously consider for your aunt if her daughter does not convince her to go to the hospital. In the end we had to call them for our neighbor to get him medical treatment, and although it was a tough choice at the time we are glad that we made the call.

Having someone declared incompetent isn't as simple as a social worker making a home visit. Depending on the state laws, it may be necessary to go to court and/or have two physicians sign off on the competency issue. A good friend's mother has Alzheimer's, but she was adamantly insisting that she could live alone in her condo (she couldn't drive and wasn't eating). It took their attorney and two physicians signing a document before my friend was able to move her into a facility where she is now cared for 24x7..

And if an elder IS mentally competent and simply refusing to go, there is little you can do other than look in on them and be supportive.

[resolution]

I think that the process may vary by state. In my neighbors case we called when he could no longer stand up. So he was sitting in his urine on his sofa and he couldn't get up to drink or eat or use the bathroom. It took about a week for them to come out and check on him. We were going in the morning to take him to the bathroom, clean him up and set him back on the sofa with some food and drink, then the same after work. Once social services showed up they took him to the hospital and then into a nursing home. Possibly they convinced him to go when we couldn't, but they led us to believe that they could make that decision. I know this situation is a lot more extreme than the OP's aunt, but I just wanted to mention the possibility so she could look into it if she wanted.

[Gardening Grandma]

Feb 28, 2011 16:27:44 GMT -5 resolution said:

I think that the process may vary by state. In my neighbors case we called when he could no longer stand up. So he was sitting in his urine on his sofa and he couldn't get up to drink or eat or use the bathroom. It took about a week for them to come out and check on him. We were going in the morning to take him to the bathroom, clean him up and set him back on the sofa with some food and drink, then the same after work. Once social services showed up they took him to the hospital and then into a nursing home. Possibly they convinced him to go when we couldn't, but they led us to believe that they could make that decision. I know this situation is a lot more extreme than the OP's aunt, but I just wanted to mention the possibility so she could look into it if she wanted.

And it IS a very good suggestion, particularly if the individual has no relatives...

[whoisjohngalt]

Kari,

What an amazing and kind person you are. karma for you!!

Lena

[Deleted]

My aunt went to the doctor today for five hours worth of tests. They did an EKG, and her heart is fine. Her blood pressure was slightly high (130), but they figured that was the stress of the tests.

They refused her need for a bather. She was "cleaner" than a lot of their elderly patients. They sent her home, telling her to elevate her feet more.

This must make you all feel better (NOT).

[busymom]

southernsusana, you sound like a great niece & friend to your aunt. I, too, deal regularly with an elderly relative, and you can't "make" them do what they don't want to do. One friend of mine had a grandmother who'd decided she'd lived long enough, and sat in a rocking chair & refused to do anything else until she died. Sadly, she lived another 10 years, sitting in her chair & doing nothing. Sometimes all you can do is love them, & try & support their decisions, even if you don't always agree with those decisions.