vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Feb 27, 2011 14:54:35 GMT -5
While I understand why the union are upset, I believe that if their wings aren't clipped a bit - they will bankrupt this country and then life could revert back to the 1930's type of living for all of us. I think wing clipping would have been great 10 yrs ago. Now I am for plucking every feather.! "Tax to the max" is what our local union leaders have been crying here for the last dozen yrs.Their words, not mine. I'm all out of empathy. LOL - I live in Illinois and our Governor apparently has no problem with Tax to the Max
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2011 15:04:26 GMT -5
Geez- that interactive map is pretty dramatic. I live in a 10% area of AZ. Look at CA!!! Very ugly out there, and I think by now everybody knows the gov't is fudging the numbers.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2011 15:05:25 GMT -5
I think wing clipping would have been great 10 yrs ago. Now I am for plucking every feather.! "Tax to the max" is what our local union leaders have been crying here for the last dozen yrs.Their words, not mine. I'm all out of empathy. LOL - I live in Illinois and our Governor apparently has no problem with Tax to the Max Hey hang in there in Ill!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2011 15:31:03 GMT -5
Poor vonnie. I live with the illegals, you live with the thugs.
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Feb 27, 2011 15:45:05 GMT -5
Poor vonnie. I live with the illegals, you live with the thugs. Too funny! I am so very, very proud to live in what has become to be known as the most politically corrupt state in the nation.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 27, 2011 15:47:02 GMT -5
You're not alone. As I said- it's over. We won. They lost.
Voters are not stupid. Taxpayers aren't going to sit there and put up with a system that pays 1 government functionary for every 183 people when the average salary and benefits of those government employees is $89,500 (in Wisconsin) when the average salary and benefits nation-wide is $61,000.
The Party is over.
The public employee unions are going to join their counterparts in the private sector. They are going to get used to fewer jobs, lower pay, smaller pension and benefit packages, and an end to job security no matter what.
They will do it voluntarily, in cooperation with Governor Walker and other moderate Republican governor's modest proposals, or they will do it abruptly and involuntarily after State's creditors impose mandatory austerity.
The choices are a gradual transition to reality with Walker, or the cold water treatment.
If they lose- they lose. And if they win, they really lose. Of course the latter lines the pockets of the union leadership-- who ironically are really the folks the rank and file should be angry with.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 27, 2011 15:48:33 GMT -5
LOL - I live in Illinois and our Governor apparently has no problem with Tax to the Max Hey hang in there in Ill! Oh, don't worry- they will. IL will go bursting through the gates of hell at full speed. There's no one willing to apply the brakes there.
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Feb 27, 2011 15:49:19 GMT -5
You're not alone. As I said- it's over. We won. They lost. Voters are not stupid. Taxpayers aren't going to sit there and put up with a system that pays 1 government functionary for every 183 people when the average salary and benefits of those government employees is $89,500 (in Wisconsin) when the average salary and benefits nation-wide is $61,000. The Party is over. The public employee unions are going to join their counterparts in the private sector. They are going to get used to fewer jobs, lower pay, smaller pension and benefit packages, and an end to job security no matter what. They will do it voluntarily, in cooperation with Governor Walker and other moderate Republican governor's modest proposals, or they will do it abruptly and involuntarily after State's creditors impose mandatory austerity. The choices are a gradual transition to reality with Walker, or the cold water treatment. If they lose- they lose. And if they win, they really lose. Of course the latter lines the pockets of the union leadership-- who ironically are really the folks the rank and file should be angry with. Excellent post!!!
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Feb 27, 2011 15:51:14 GMT -5
Hey hang in there in Ill! Oh, don't worry- they will. IL will go bursting through the gates of hell at full speed. There's no one willing to apply the brakes there. I'm holding my breath and crossing my fingers - hoping that Gov. Walker will continue to hang tough.
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workpublic
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Post by workpublic on Feb 27, 2011 16:25:43 GMT -5
imho we are at a major turning point in out history. the people must take back control of the govt.
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Feb 27, 2011 16:34:02 GMT -5
imho we are at a major turning point in out history. the people must take back control of the govt. Agree with you 100%
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b2r
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Post by b2r on Feb 27, 2011 16:47:13 GMT -5
Oh, To Be a Teacher in Wisconsin How can fringe benefits cost nearly as much as a worker's salary? Answer: collective bargaining. The showdown in Wisconsin over fringe benefits for public employees boils down to one number: 74.2. That's how many cents the public pays Milwaukee public-school teachers and other employees for retirement and health benefits for every dollar they receive in salary. The corresponding rate for employees of private firms is 24.3 cents. online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703408604576164290717724956.html•Health care for current employees. Under the current collective- bargaining agreements, the school district pays the entire premium for medical and vision benefits, and over half the cost of dental coverage. These plans are extremely expensive. This is partly because of Wisconsin's unique arrangement under which the teachers union is the sponsor of the group health-insurance plans. Not surprisingly, benefits are generous. The district's contributions for health insurance of active employees total 38.8% of wages. For private-sector workers nationwide, the average is 10.7%.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2011 17:13:42 GMT -5
You're not alone. As I said- it's over. We won. They lost. Voters are not stupid. Taxpayers aren't going to sit there and put up with a system that pays 1 government functionary for every 183 people when the average salary and benefits of those government employees is $89,500 (in Wisconsin) when the average salary and benefits nation-wide is $61,000. The Party is over. The public employee unions are going to join their counterparts in the private sector. They are going to get used to fewer jobs, lower pay, smaller pension and benefit packages, and an end to job security no matter what. They will do it voluntarily, in cooperation with Governor Walker and other moderate Republican governor's modest proposals, or they will do it abruptly and involuntarily after State's creditors impose mandatory austerity. The choices are a gradual transition to reality with Walker, or the cold water treatment. If they lose- they lose. And if they win, they really lose. Of course the latter lines the pockets of the union leadership-- who ironically are really the folks the rank and file should be angry with. Your right, either way they lose. Sigh of relief.........
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 27, 2011 17:41:06 GMT -5
Decay, not sure what your position is here but the fact of the matter is that Wisconsin (the entire country for that matter) simply can no longer pay the outrageous benefits unions have bullied their way into getting. They are going to be lucky to hold on to their useless jobs let alone continuing to fleece the good hardworking patriotic taxpayers of the country. Dalton McGuinty Burns III They didn't bully those benefits, they bargained for them, and the ones who bargained with them gave them to them in the bargaining process. In many cases it was to have less salary but more retirement and health benefits, a trade off. The ones who bargained those features for the States knew what theyb were doing, helping them selves in their current budgets and the future..well that would be problems for others. You Burns, though actually your opinion for reasons mentioned many tines here have no bearing here, but for those who are citizens and who's thoughts do matter , while you may criticize the amount they, Union members receive as excessive, have to admit the bargaining was in good faith, and if we weren't faced with the economic situation we are now , as deep a recession for the past two years, less tax revenue, since the depression of the 30's that was before all most all of our times, this would not have been a problem . Teachers over the years have always been known to be a professional career, educated, given great responsibilities with the children of the populous, and to many times not recognized for those responsibilities, yet also known as a under paid profession, though their benefits were very good. Now since States are in financial straits the current public officials are looking around for a scape goat to blame all the ills of the States problems on, and they found it, have used rhetoric to turn the populous into a mob and looking for a tree to hang those enemies of the people... The unions have recognized those state financial problems and have given in and gave a lot back yet that is not enough for this Governor and it seems other Governors through out the land, most belonging to the same party, by the way. That party never depended on those state workers and unions on general for support generally so if they don't get their support in the future in future, to them in their reasoning, no great loss, they never had the support anyway, However what is interesting in this case , WI, he did exempt the three unions that came out in favor of him in his run for office from having to give up their rights to collective bargaining. Did he also exempt them from paying more for their retirements and toward their health insurance too? I didn't get that part of it. And his boast on the phony call from a supposed wealthy supporter and booster that the blogger put up, while not exactly cricket I agree, still, his feelings of what he is doing and why, showed he is a dangerous and dishonest governor..one not to be trusted, and what he does to one group today, he can and will do to others, divide and conquerer. --------------------------------------------------------- ""The public employee unions are going to join their counterparts in the private sector. They are going to get used to fewer jobs, lower pay, smaller pension and benefit packages, and an end to job security no matter what -------------------------------------------------------- And your children will be in class rooms with a aveage of 35 kids in them too, less courses offered , and if the salarys are not increased, then you will have better , younger ones opting out of the profession and looking for different kinds of careers. I get the impression that you have little respect for the teaching profession. Either you had kids who did terrible in school, you never had kids in school, or it you did, it was so long ago , you forgot what it was all about, and if you did have kids, they went through school and did well, in your mind, it was all about the kids doing well and the teachers were unimportant in that happening.
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Feb 27, 2011 17:45:46 GMT -5
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decoy409
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Post by decoy409 on Feb 27, 2011 18:21:01 GMT -5
krickitt, yes the interactive map is really something. I started following it right when it started and so I see how the disease has spread. I followed the states and I followed 'Daily Job Cut's' www.dailyjobcuts.com/ as well as a magnitude of the paper trail from A-Z world wide and what has had the most relevant moves as to 'change.' It was that senator in the hallway last year that said, 'Oh yes, there is going to be change' and then he turned his back and walked away that sparked much curiosity. You could say I am in a sense a linguist.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2011 18:29:53 GMT -5
Well, decoy, you bring an interesting perspective to things. I hope you post here more often. I don't know enough to post on your regular board. LOL-- maybe if I spied on it I would. Think I will do that. You are probably right that if you don't understand money, markets, etc. you can't really understand politics, so I guess I should try to learn.
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burnsattornincan
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Post by burnsattornincan on Feb 27, 2011 18:42:08 GMT -5
You Burns, though actually your opinion for reasons mentioned many tines here have no bearing here, but for those who are citizens and who's thoughts do matter
Apparently it does matter to some people here Mr. dezilooooo. Look at the numbers. Sorry but reality is setting in on your beloved unions and the rest of your liberal idiosyncrasies. Next up, your coveted immigrants - illegal or otherwise.
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decoy409
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Post by decoy409 on Feb 27, 2011 19:14:21 GMT -5
Then we look to how the people are arguing amongst themselfs. By design, that's how. By design and based on lies. From both Democrat and Republican and keep the people divided from each other over the years. No different than early history 200 B.C.E. when oral law was formed. People simply wanted to live peacefuly amongst one another through the laws of Abraham. But somebody else wanted control and all the $cake$ as well. That was the king and so he hired the tax farmer to go get it. If you did not have it or would not pay, up on the board nailed to it you went and planted in the ground up high for all to see. The old fear factor playing out. Then along comes Antiochus persecuting the jews for not joining in and accepting the new ways. These people were slaughtered by the thousands for refusal to give in as they knew what was to become of things into the future. Down the line you have the players one after another and the burning of Rome while Nero stood in his courtyard and laughed with human candle people lit up around him screaming while it did. And the old books burned up (sound familiar as it should as just of late as a matter of fact it happened, this is where William Black comes in the best FRAUD Detector in the world and ex bank regulator as well as Professor at a local university here in the states) and things become even more filled with lies and decieit. The French revolution plays, rights are granted things rewrit and it just has continued on through creativity by each days modern technology making the lies stronger and stronger,easier and easier to perform by the master magician. Majority of kids have the cell phone and the latest video game but are crying for more.Yet they stopped teaching them their history in public schools. Seperation and dividing each of us more and more. The Joneses keeeping up with the Joneses impressing each other on 'Real Value' a Corporation coined term where we get our shelf prices from. The $120.00 jeans made out of the states, $3.00 in materials,50 cent slave labor and a couple of bucks on tax and transportation, but the Real Value given is $120.00 and the joneses are trying to keep up with the joneses next door to impress. The house that became the ATM for what? Well now it is called DEBT. Many should have never got the house loan to begin with,but how else do you pump stock? By the numbers and at all expense, no matter what that may be. Doesnt work, roll it into the $120 QUADRILLION paper world called Derivatives and strap a big chunk of dividend payouts on the taxpayer. And if that don't work than call it Moral Hazard the new term coined last year so that prosecution can be abated. You and I selling a piece of paper and collecting off of it but failing to perform, well for us it is called Theft by Fraud. With that for us comes what? Fines,Probation,Prison/Jail sentence and a big strike on your legal sheet called Felony.
And all of this is just small pieces from the overall pie.
krickitt, I say thank you to you for your invite and listening as well. I listen to others and I form my opinion from the following in which I say next door, 'READ-WATCH-LISTEN-ASK and form your own conclusion.' The man that said that is no longer with us. He was shot down on his front lawn in the middle of the morning (about 10am 'unarmed'). He was one that fought to deliver the TRUTH through the NEWS.
Of course this small dose is just that. A nutshell from that in which really goes on.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 27, 2011 19:47:30 GMT -5
They didn't "hosed" anyone...For years and even now in so many States..Teachers are underpaid. It's a fact. They all have degrees..many advanced degrees...If anyone here is a worker with a degree and a masters and are in the private sector and still working for a major national firm..tell us what your earning..no one knows who you are...you have worked say 13 years..bet your not making $35.000/$40,000......These people over all , made less salary, received better benefits..as i said before the why as far as those who bargained with them. That was the then and it 's now the now. We are talking about the WI issue. The Governor has gotten the breaks he wants from them..so why is he now going after the right to bargain, and all the other rules he wants that basically breaks the unions.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Feb 27, 2011 21:28:05 GMT -5
DEZI, THE TIMES ARE A CHANGIN.....
The Unions are losing this argument with the majority of the taxpayers, and we are not talking Tea Party members here. People want change. I agree, teachers are a hard working group who99% are really dedicated, but, the feeling is, it is time for everyone to give something back to America. American workers, union and non union alike, have increased productivity for 25 years now, and The only work force in America that has not joined in this movement are State and Federal employees, who have not increased any productivity and not held to higher standards.
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upstatemom
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Post by upstatemom on Feb 27, 2011 22:20:38 GMT -5
Hasn't the state of Wisconsin asked the teachers union for the the members to pay more of their health care and pension costs for the past two years and they said no. Now that the stakes have been raised they are now shouting yes to paying more of their pension and health care cost. I suspect "better late than never" is not flying with the Governor, nor is it getting them sympathy from many of us.
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burnsattornincan
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Post by burnsattornincan on Feb 27, 2011 22:28:43 GMT -5
Now that the stakes have been raised they are now shouting yes to paying more of their pension and health care cost.
Sounds like someone Xavier might know of... the prodigal son.
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hello fromWarsaw
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Hiya! Wake UP!!
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Post by hello fromWarsaw on Feb 27, 2011 22:40:12 GMT -5
It's about greedy megarich pubs screwing the non rich for the last 30 years, with the help of morons. TY
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 27, 2011 23:56:36 GMT -5
You're not alone. As I said- it's over. We won. They lost. Voters are not stupid. Taxpayers aren't going to sit there and put up with a system that pays 1 government functionary for every 183 people when the average salary and benefits of those government employees is $89,500 (in Wisconsin) when the average salary and benefits nation-wide is $61,000. The Party is over. The public employee unions are going to join their counterparts in the private sector. They are going to get used to fewer jobs, lower pay, smaller pension and benefit packages, and an end to job security no matter what. They will do it voluntarily, in cooperation with Governor Walker and other moderate Republican governor's modest proposals, or they will do it abruptly and involuntarily after State's creditors impose mandatory austerity. The choices are a gradual transition to reality with Walker, or the cold water treatment. If they lose- they lose. And if they win, they really lose. Of course the latter lines the pockets of the union leadership-- who ironically are really the folks the rank and file should be angry with. Your right, either way they lose. Sigh of relief......... Exalted. Personally, I am hoping for option B. I think Governor's proposal in WI is very light. I think it doesn't go near far enough. In a state where there's a government employee for every 183 people, I would like to see those numbers of government employees shrink dramatically. It's time for some of them to go find honest work. So, in many respects I don't share Governor Walker's vision of saving government jobs. I'd be just as happy to see them succeed in shooting themselves in the foot. Either way, the unions are broken. We don't have the money. It's just that simple- it's just math. For decades the federal government, the states, and the local governments took in record revenues. Property taxes skyrocketed, the government was taking in revenue from taxes on all those mortgage brokers taking in $5K, $15K, $30K a day selling pre-construction condos in Miami Beach-- all the banker's income taxes, the income taxes from the builders, the realtors, the advertising revenue-- you name it. They increased spending. They didn't save anything for a rainy day. They thought, like those they were taxing, the party would never end. And in many ways for the priviledged government class, the party didn't end. The government class expanded, they got raises. Nobody got fired, downsized, took pay cuts, or any of that. They got raises. Their employer grew and added jobs at a record pace-- all funded by those truly suffering. And it really added insult to injury for America's REAL producers to be suffering at the same time being hit up for more money to support the very entities that were at the heart of the economic collapse-- the government, and those well-connected GSE's and corporations that took bailout money, etc. Well, the party IS over. And not a minute too soon.
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Post by ty on Feb 28, 2011 0:02:31 GMT -5
Well, I for one think these unions and the kickbacks they get at the taxpayers expense need to come to an end. I don't think it's right or fair for others to be flipping the bill for these people. They should do what the most of us do. Create a saving's account and save for the future, and like most working Americans, they have to pay for their own medical insurance premiums. I also feel all these teachers and the doctors that were issuing bogus letters for the teachers protesting all should be fired. They were comitting crimes right on national TV, and I wouldn't want anyone of these people teaching my kids ever.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 28, 2011 1:26:13 GMT -5
DEZI, THE TIMES ARE A CHANGIN..... The Unions are losing this argument with the majority of the taxpayers, and we are not talking Tea Party members here. People want change. I agree, teachers are a hard working group who99% are really dedicated, but, the feeling is, it is time for everyone to give something back to America. American workers, union and non union alike, have increased productivity for 25 years now, and The only work force in America that has not joined in this movement are State and Federal employees, who have not increased any productivity and not held to higher standards. In this case they did give back. $ I feel it is a scape goat situation manipulated by those politicals..and it seems mostly Republicans, Governors. Since when has a Republican been a friend of the working peole..they admit it themselves, saying when business is strong then it will help the working class..they hate unions and the scape goating of the unions as the bad boy of the country is playing into their hands and the craziness is the working class is accepting that and cutting the throats of their fellows. Next it will be them when they find that a very good wage will be in the $30/$40 thou range. If any of you feel that is a very good range, living, unless your living out in the boonies, Dakotas, Wyoming, Montana...that is NOT a good wage for middle living to day . Your food is climbing, gas, housing, heating, medical, no pensions, so many companies giving no more matching in 401's, educating your kids, college, ..yet so many are all over these workers and the workers in WI..they GAVE the Governor what he wanted..now he wants more , so explain to me why??
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Post by stayput on Feb 28, 2011 3:24:10 GMT -5
Decoy, my only question is this. How in the world did you get a Karma of 166? Who do you know? Are you secretly working for "The Man"? I can't even break double digits.
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decoy409
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Post by decoy409 on Feb 28, 2011 10:19:16 GMT -5
Value Buy, good morning to you! Can you break this down for me as to what you are seeing in this sentence of yours, Quote: American workers, union and non union alike, have increased productivity for 25 years now, and Read more: notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=politics&action=display&thread=4015&page=2#ixzz1FGbqeUuGAs I am looking at the 10,500 plants (plus) that have been sold off down the road and are no longer here just over the course of the last 10-11 years. And then let me add that MORE $cake$ has been pressed out here in the U.S. in the past 3 years now than the entire history of it's running! I mean that is some heavy stuff.
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ugonow
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Post by ugonow on Feb 28, 2011 10:31:29 GMT -5
IMO,it is more a political power play than budget issue.Workers have agreed to the cuts to balance the budget,it is only the cuts to bargaining rights they are protesting...And are the other issues in the bill a way to pay fot the coporate tax cuts he gave?---------<<<"The legislation would also borrow money from a federal welfare program to cover further state shortfalls, and it includes a provision that would allow the sale of the state’s public utilities without a bidding process or public oversight. The bill includes a provision that would allow the state to sell or contract out the operation of heating, cooling, and power plants without a bidding process and without consulting the state’s independent utility regulator. Democratic legislators worried aloud that the process would attract abuse, and Jon Peacock, director of the Wisconsin Budget Project, called the no-bid approach a “red flag.”
The bill also employs “emergency” powers that would allow the governor’s appointed health secretary to redefine the foundations of the state’s Medicaid program, Badgercare, ranging from eligibility to premiums, with only passive legislative review. The attorney in the legislature’s nonpartisan reference bureau who prepared the bill warned that a court could invalidate the statute for violating separation of powers doctrine.
The legislation, the lawyer wrote in a “drafter’s note” about the bill, would allow the state Department of Health Services to “change any Medical Assistance law, for any reason, at any time, and potentially without notice or public hearing... in addition to eliminating notice and publication requirements, [the changes] would leave the emergency rules in effect without any requirement to make permanent rules and without any time limit.” >>>>>
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