Air travelers may have been exposed to measles

[marjar]

Mar 1, 2011 11:44:43 GMT -5 Gardening Grandma said:

Mar 1, 2011 11:33:36 GMT -5 @marjar said:

Interesting commentary.

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3035344/ns/health-health_care/

marjar
Which one are you referring to? The vaccinatioin/autism one? Or the lead one about cancer?

I'm sorry the link was not direct.

By Arthur Caplan, Ph.D.


Measles-carrier had right to skip shot; we have right to sue
New Mexico woman traveled through four airports, putting others at risk

The unvaccinated woman from New Mexico who recently traveled through four U.S. airports while infected with the measles made me think of Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes who said, “The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins.” He was paraphrasing the great British philosopher John Stuart Mill who argued in a classic 1860 essay that the sole justification for interfering with another person’s liberty was to prevent harm to others.

Our traveler has the right to choose against being vaccinated. But she does not have the right to expose those at high risk of infection — newborns, those with immunological disorders and those whose immune systems are suppressed due to a transplant or cancer treatment — to a fatal case of measles.


Anti-vaccine zealots say that whatever one’s reason for opposing vaccination for themselves or their kids, America must respect their choice. They yell about freedom, individual rights and liberty. A lot of Americans apparently agree with this view.

The scientific case for the importance of vaccines is overwhelming and beyond any dispute (and most worries about safety rest on fear and lies ). But still, most states by law permit parents to opt out of vaccination requirements by invoking religious or philosophical objections no matter how zany those may be.

Maybe each person, including our measles-laden friend from New Mexico, is free to travel throughout the United States putting others at risk. But shouldn’t they be held accountable for that choice when it hurts others?

We don’t know yet if she infected anyone. Health officials are frantically trying to track down those she came in contact with. But we do know that measles remains a highly contagious disease. About 164,000 people worldwide die of measles each year, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Infection.

Story: Air travelers may have been exposed to measles

So let’s listen to two of the staunchest defenders of individual rights and liberty ever to take pen to paper — Mill and Holmes. If you infect my newborn or my grandmom because you put your liberty over your duty to help protect the weak and the vulnerable and chose not to get vaccinated then you are responsible for the harm you do and you ought to be liable for it.

I don’t really don’t care to give lawyers more business but if the only way to get those who put other lives at risk by selfishly or stupidly not vaccinating is to sue them then so be it. If the lady from New Mexico is a Typhoid Mary spreading measles throughout America as she goes her merry uninoculated way then she ought to pay for those she disables, sickens or kills.

OK, lawyers, have at her.

[Gardening Grandma]

Thanks marjar - there were a lot of interesting articles on the original link.

But this one says it best...

[marjar]

We don't know the circumstances regarding this woman as to why she did not have vaccinations. In other instances, I'm starting to believe that if it people elect not to vaccinate themselves or their children, and do so for reasons that are not medical, we should have recourse if we, the public, is harmed because of their choices.

[973beachbum]

The article said "woman" . I don't know it but to me that means adult. Adults don't normally get vaccinations like measles shots. The only ones that adults routinely get that I know of are tetanus, hepatitis pneumonia and flu. I am not sure this is really the same argument as if it was a child whose parents didn't vaccinate on the mistaken impression that it would lessen their child's risk of autism.

Seriously when was the last time any of you had a vaccine?

The older "live" vaccines are actually more effective than killed ones. That is why they still use them in countries where the diseases are pretty prevalent. Also if a large portion of the population is unvaccinated. The live immunity from the person who got the shot can be "pooped" out still live and go into the water stream thereby creating a community preventative effect. Both a gross and neat way nature works.

[973beachbum]

Feb 28, 2011 18:40:42 GMT -5 @toughtimes said:

Scarlet fever can also permanently destroy the heart and the kidneys as well.

Scarlet fever is the next step after strep throat. That is why they make such a big deal about testing kids in school if they have a sore throat.

[marjar]

Mar 1, 2011 13:40:51 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

The article said "woman" . I don't know it but to me that means adult. Adults don't normally get vaccinations like measles shots. The only ones that adults routinely get that I know of are tetanus, hepatitis pneumonia and flu. I am not sure this is really the same argument as if it was a child whose parents didn't vaccinate on the mistaken impression that it would lessen their child's risk of autism.

Seriously when was the last time any of you had a vaccine?

The older "live" vaccines are actually more effective than killed ones. That is why they still use them in countries where the diseases are pretty prevalent. Also if a large portion of the population is unvaccinated. The live immunity from the person who got the shot can be "pooped" out still live and go into the water stream thereby creating a community preventative effect. Both a gross and neat way nature works.

She is stated to be 27. Not that old.

[Angel!]

Mar 1, 2011 13:40:51 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

The article said "woman" . I don't know it but to me that means adult. Adults don't normally get vaccinations like measles shots. The only ones that adults routinely get that I know of are tetanus, hepatitis pneumonia and flu. I am not sure this is really the same argument as if it was a child whose parents didn't vaccinate on the mistaken impression that it would lessen their child's risk of autism.

Seriously when was the last time any of you had a vaccine?

This isn't a vaccine you need to take regularly. If you had the shot & booster as a child, then you don't need another as an adult. If she was 27, then she would have been a child when getting a MMR shot was part of the normal vaccinations.

Unless she had a medical reason for not being vaccinated, then I think she should be considered responsible for all those who caught the disease from her who were unvaccinated due to medical reasons (too young or other issues).

I wonder if parents who chose to not vacinate their children should be held responsible for some sort of child neglect should those kids get significantly ill. I know there is a lot of uproar about parental choice, but we make parents use child car seats, so why don't we make them protect their kids (and others) from dangerous & preventable diseases.

[973beachbum]

Mar 1, 2011 13:45:26 GMT -5 @marjar said:

Mar 1, 2011 13:40:51 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

The article said "woman" . I don't know it but to me that means adult. Adults don't normally get vaccinations like measles shots. The only ones that adults routinely get that I know of are tetanus, hepatitis pneumonia and flu. I am not sure this is really the same argument as if it was a child whose parents didn't vaccinate on the mistaken impression that it would lessen their child's risk of autism.

Seriously when was the last time any of you had a vaccine?

The older "live" vaccines are actually more effective than killed ones. That is why they still use them in countries where the diseases are pretty prevalent. Also if a large portion of the population is unvaccinated. The live immunity from the person who got the shot can be "pooped" out still live and go into the water stream thereby creating a community preventative effect. Both a gross and neat way nature works.

She is stated to be 27. Not that old.

The last recomended vaccines for people other than teatnus or flu is at about 11 years old. It also is completely possible that you immunity faded away by then also.

I have never know anyone in there twenties who we went to the Dr for shots like MMR.

[Angel!]

The last recomended vaccines for people other than teatnus or flu is at about 11 years old. It also is completely possible that you immunity faded away by then also.

It is possible, but very unlikely, for most people immunity to the measles last a lifetime. Consider that measles is extremely contagious - they say around 90% of people exposed get the disease, yet in these outbreaks generally 95% or more of the people that get the disease were never vaccinated.

Odds are pretty good that this women was never vaccinated.

[bean29]

I got a MMR vaccine about 5 years ago b/c I worked with some college students who had/were exposed to Mumps.

My Sister and Mother got Mumps when I was about 3. I think the vaccine was new at the time. I checked my immunization record and it did not say that I was vaccinated against Mumps. Mom thought maybe they did not vaccinate me b/c they thought I had developed immunity?

Doctors just recommended I get the MMR becasue that is how it is now packaged.
this info is about Measles/Mumps/Ruebella
www.vaccineinformation.org/mumps/qandavax.asp

a newer version of this vaccine now includes chicken pox MMRV (available in 2005).
The one woman who was exposed to the Mumps was quarantined by the CDC and they were calling her daily. I did not want to live through that.

[973beachbum]

Mar 1, 2011 14:07:42 GMT -5 Angel! said:

Mar 1, 2011 13:40:51 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

The article said "woman" . I don't know it but to me that means adult. Adults don't normally get vaccinations like measles shots. The only ones that adults routinely get that I know of are tetanus, hepatitis pneumonia and flu. I am not sure this is really the same argument as if it was a child whose parents didn't vaccinate on the mistaken impression that it would lessen their child's risk of autism.

Seriously when was the last time any of you had a vaccine?

This isn't a vaccine you need to take regularly. If you had the shot & booster as a child, then you don't need another as an adult. If she was 27, then she would have been a child when getting a MMR shot was part of the normal vaccinations.

Unless she had a medical reason for not being vaccinated, then I think she should be considered responsible for all those who caught the disease from her who were unvaccinated due to medical reasons (too young or other issues).

I wonder if parents who chose to not vacinate their children should be held responsible for some sort of child neglect should those kids get significantly ill. I know there is a lot of uproar about parental choice, but we make parents use child car seats, so why don't we make them protect their kids (and others) from dangerous & preventable diseases.

I am actually agreeing with you that this isn't something she would have done as an adult. She should have had this as a child. I know lots of people who don't remember what shots they had. And in 46 years the only time a Dr ever asked about shots I had had, after middle school, was when I was pregnant. It just isn't common to have an adult to be questioned about a childhood vaccine.

ETA I'm sure there are rare instances where employers or travel makes it come up but for the most part adults just don't think about what shots they had as a kid.

[bean29]

My Mom had a pretty good record of my Vaccine history. The state/Health Department has records of vaccinations. I asked if they had a record of me getting the Mumps vaccine, they did not.

Check with your parents and get any copies of vaccination records they have on you if you have not already done so.

If you can not get the info from your parents, contact you local health department and find out what records they have.

[Angel!]

Mar 1, 2011 15:18:22 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

I am actually agreeing with you that this isn't something she would have done as an adult. She should have had this as a child.

Are we agreeing? LOL I guess I get so used to arguing on this board that I miss when someone is saying the same thing as me, but in a different way.

I thought you were saying it was very likely that she was vaccinated as a child & the immunity wore off. I think that it is very unlikely she was ever vaccinated, but not impossible.

Can you blame an adult women for not having gotten a vaccine that her parents chose to skip when she was a child?

[marjar]

My thinking may be off because my kid got new vaccinations, and updates on older vaccinations, before she went to college. Doctor recommended it. Also, I have her vaccination records and she's the same age as this woman.

[marjar]

Not getting them as an adult depends on the reasons.

[973beachbum]

That is a thought but most people I know don't think about such things unless they get pregnant or something and it comes up and they have to. It is one of the downsides to being blessed to live in a country that people aren't getting whooping cough and such everyday. We just forget how bad it can be.

Strangely though I got the chicken pox twice. The docs said that is not supposed to happen either.

I got my kids vaccinated but now that my DD is older I am sure all she remembers is vague. My son is 7 and in for a rude awakening when he gets to the Doc at eleven.

[Angel!]

I got my kids vaccinated but now that my DD is older I am sure all she remembers is vague.

Maybe it is just me, but I have a clear memory of getting an MMR shot (I'm 30). Of course, I probably wouldn't remember not having gotten it & wouldn't think - hey I better go get one of those.

Although I do sometimes think I should probably go get a tetanus shot because I think it has been 15 years for that. I also should probably get the pneumonia vaccine in the next few years.

[973beachbum]

Of all of them tetanus scares the crap out of me. I saw a guy who got it and it was one of the nastiest ways to die I have ever seen. And it lives in dirt. I garden all the time I can't be worried about picking up lock jaw!

After having 2 kids whats a shot?

[Angel!]

Now you are scaring me!

[Deleted]

Maybe somehow she was in the group that didn't get the second MMR booster as a child ( i didn't get a second until college... it was protocal then...) and somehow missed the booster?

[Deleted]

Just to be clear. You used to get ONE MMR shot. Then they realized that this was not sufficient, over the lifetime, to ensure immunity, so they started to recommend TWO MMR shots. Children currently receive both in childhood. I was 18-20 when they first started giving children two shots (and i'm not sure how many years it took to get a solid protocal on that?) ... i got my 2nd going into college. If i had not gone to college, i'm guessing i might never have been in a situation where it would be suggested i get a booster?

[Deleted]

I thought natural immunity was forever... ? unless your imune system becomes significantly impaired for some reason...

As much as we try to replicate with a vaccine... its not exactly like getting the virus... so i don't think immunity that way works the same?

[vonnie6200]

Mar 1, 2011 17:12:36 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

Of all of them tetanus scares the crap out of me. I saw a guy who got it and it was one of the nastiest ways to die I have ever seen. And it lives in dirt. I garden all the time I can't be worried about picking up lock jaw!

After having 2 kids whats a shot?

Any place that has had a horse on it in the last fifty years can be a danger for tetanus

[vonnie6200]

Mar 1, 2011 20:58:24 GMT -5 @toughtimes said:

I did not know that. I contracted mumps, measles, rubella and chicken pox as a child. I was a year or two early to get the vaccinations. I wonder if I am still immune to them. Does natural immunity last longer or less long that that from shots?

longer - usually lifetime

[Angel!]

Mar 1, 2011 20:51:02 GMT -5 oped said:

Maybe somehow she was in the group that didn't get the second MMR booster as a child ( i didn't get a second until college... it was protocal then...) and somehow missed the booster?

I know I got 2 as a child & I am older than the woman in question. But, maybe recommendations varied by doctor or where you lived at that time.

[Mad Dawg Wiccan]

Feb 28, 2011 21:12:28 GMT -5 @patstab said:

I had a smallpox vaccinaton when I enrolled in college, had never had it. Not sure why. My dad was scared because some kids immunized against polio caught it so wouldn't let me have it. Can you imagine?? So when I got older I went and got it, but by then the vaccine they used was dead.

Today my husband and I both got vaccinated for shingles, the cost was $219.99 each at Walgreens Take Care Clinic. His insurance is supposed to pay it all, we shall see. But I saw mom have it and she was in misery for more then a month. She had it on her back on her ribs all the way down and she could hardly breathe. I had to put salve on her every night for a long time. And a friend got it on her face and they were worried it might get in her eyes and cause blindness. Hubby said he probably didn't need it but we figure better safe then sorry. I've also been vaccinated for pneumonia and want him to get that too. We are 65 and as we age more prone, possibly, to getting things like that. Oh and the shingles vaccine is live virus so they don't want you sick when you get it.

It's very rare, but shingle can actually cause death. One of my father's coworkers caught it in her face. It spread to her eyes, went down the optic nerve into her brain, and she died.