Is access to utility service without payment a "right"?

[The Captain]

Jun 26, 2014 14:47:51 GMT -5 oped said:

Even then, I think less than 1 or maybe 5% of the population was impacted.

Which 1-5% was that? 


National debt has fluctuated. It hasn't been a straight line. 

Sigh, i need a keyboard. I'm stuck with short pecking answers.

Well hurry up and get to a keyboard!  I truly enjoy a robust discussion.

You know darn well which 1-5% was impacted when income taxes were put in place.  Now are you ready for a surprise?

The reason it was only the top 1-5% was because a significant percentage of the operating revenue was generated from import tariffs, federal resource extraction excise taxes, and other non income based taxes.    In 1934 only 14% of the operating budget came from personal income taxes.  In 2013 that number is 47%.  In 1934 73% of the budget came from extraction or excise/tarrifs - in 2013 only 9% of the budget. (The corporate % is largely unchanged)

Do you see the problem here?  We've shifted the total budget burden more onto the individual and away from tarrifs and extraction taxes. 

I used to think that we could compete on a level playing field in the global economy, but not everyone follows the same rules.  Personally, I do believe we should increase extraction taxes and import tarrifs.  I do not believe the answer is to tax those that currently pay personal income taxes even more.

We also need to get our spending under control, but how that is done is another debate.

I've got a neat excel file that shows this but can't figure out how to post it. Below are the links to my source data.



www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=203

www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/historicals

[kittensaver]

This text from the article really jumped out at me:

"Disconnections due to non-payment are only permissible if it can be shown that the resident is able to pay but is not paying," human right to water and sanitation expert Catarina de Albuquerque said in a statement issued from the United Nations in Geneva. "In other words, when there is genuine inability to pay, human rights simply forbids disconnections."

I'm generally a fairly liberal person who sees and works every day with people with severe disabilities who live in grinding poverty - and daily also sees the accompanying shunning, judgment and discrimination of them for their circumstances by the public. But I also looked at the picture of the woman holding up her water bill for a photograph. I noticed her perm, her hair color job, her extensive tats and her elaborate manicure. Could she have done all of those things herself? Maybe. Maybe she bartered for them? Maybe.  I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt.

BUT if she didn't, I DO wonder if she indeed falls into a "genuine inability to pay" category. I agree that cutting someone off with a genuine inability to pay (particularly a large group of people all congregated in one area) would create a potential sanitation and health hazard that will spill over into and affect the general welfare of the general public.

There are no easy answers. But there ARE a lot of questions and a lot of judgments.

[MarleyKeezy78]

I live in Metro Detroit and it pisses me off that the rates get raised in the more well to do areas and if we were to miss a payment or two our utilities would be cut off so fast it would make your head spin, but not in Detroit, oh no we wouldn't dare cut of those entitled to their services  <img text="" alt=" " src="http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/rolleyes2.gif"> But our rates continue to rise every year to compensate for those who won't pay. You can only ask so much from someone who can pay to cover for those who can't or won't before they will be in the same boat.

[zibazinski]

In Oregon you used to be able to check a place on your bill to donate to those having trouble paying. So few did that it became mandatory on the bill.   I don't appreciate being forced to pay for someone else who chooses to spend their money on crap while I pay my bills. It's  bad enough that I am forced to pay taxes to support those who make and continue to make poor choices, now I'm taxed again. The state now sticks landlords with the water bills that tenants don't pay. After being sued, the utility companies have to notify landlords when the tenants don't pay. I've told my tenants that I don't give a shit whether their kids eat or not, pay the utility bills or you are out of my house, period. I'm so mean. 

[MarleyKeezy78]

I will also bitch about this!!! We moved to a nice city with closed school districts 4 years ago for a reason and I want to beat the shit out of our council who this week voted through even though tons of people packed the room to object school of choice  So the same people who don't want to pay their utilities get to use up all the resourses at our schools, aghhhhhh!!!!!!! It's so fucked up!!! I get to pay an obscene amount of taxes for people who don't live here, fuck you very much....

[zibazinski]

Vote them OUT. RECALL them!! If we voted and recalled these people who are elected to represent US, we wouldn't have illegals flooding our schools and borders. Among other issues.

[Blonde Granny]

I thought the picture of the woman in this article was interesting. She can't pay her water bill, but she certainly could pay for her tattoos.

[Deleted]

Access to utility service without payment is not a "right".  There are certain aspects to socialism I won't agree to.

[kittensaver]

Jun 27, 2014 7:01:16 GMT -5 Blonde Granny said:

I thought the picture of the woman in this article was interesting. She can't pay her water bill, but she certainly could pay for her tattoos.

BUT - how do we know she didn't get them before she fell on hard times? Lots of folks on these boards acquired material goods and toys before they ran into a negative financial whirl in their lives. Just sayin' . . . not defending, just sayin' . . .

[Deleted]

Jun 27, 2014 12:14:25 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

Jun 27, 2014 7:01:16 GMT -5 Blonde Granny said:

I thought the picture of the woman in this article was interesting. She can't pay her water bill, but she certainly could pay for her tattoos.

BUT - how do we know she didn't get them before she fell on hard times? Lots of folks on these boards acquired material goods and toys before they ran into a negative financial whirl in their lives. Just sayin' . . . not defending, just sayin' . . .

I would have to say I know too many people who spend freely when the times are good and expect other people to pay their way when the going gets tough.

[kittensaver]

Jun 27, 2014 12:33:16 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

Jun 27, 2014 12:14:25 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

BUT - how do we know she didn't get them before she fell on hard times? Lots of folks on these boards acquired material goods and toys before they ran into a negative financial whirl in their lives. Just sayin' . . . not defending, just sayin' . . .

I would have to say I know too many people who spend freely when the times are good and expect other people to pay their way when the going gets tough.

I know some of them too, @jma23. AND I know others who don't. It just seems sometimes that we (me too!) are REALLY quick to label and judge. Just sayin' . . .

[Sam_2.0]

I personally get extremely frustrated with the fraud and gaming the system that I deal with on a daily basis. And I know this pool of people represents less than .5% of our customer base, so it's clearly not everyone. But it's hard not to be a bit jaded when that's what you specifically have to respond to.

And I hate that there are so many people who fall on hard times and just need a one-time boost, like lizwid on YM, and won't need continual aid. But because the incomes are too high overall they can't get the help they need. We make people wait to get assistance until they are in crisis with threat of disconnection most of the time, because that's how the agencies determine the most urgent need. Yet if some of these customers just had a way to get help with one bill before having to go down the rabbit trail, they would need less assistance and the situation would be more manageable.

I have customers that get on the Cold Weather payment plans (state mandated) that end up with $5,000 utility balances! MO lets a customer pay only 50% of their monthly average bill through the winter if they request, although we strongly discourage it and try to explain why. Clearly those arrangements aren't helping the overall situation, they just put a quick band-aid on it. Then once the plan is defaulted the customer is out of luck because there's not enough assistance available. And now it's June and they are shut off, with no way to get service again before it gets unbearably hot. So they tamper or fraudulently switch names to try & get around it, which results in more fees and deposits due. It's a terrible cycle.

[Deleted]

Jun 27, 2014 12:37:35 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

Jun 27, 2014 12:33:16 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

I would have to say I know too many people who spend freely when the times are good and expect other people to pay their way when the going gets tough.

I know some of them too, @jma23. AND I know others who don't. It just seems sometimes that we (me too!) are REALLY quick to label and judge. Just sayin' . . .

I don't want to judge them, just not pay their way. When I was just starting out I always lived and housed well within my means. I did without lots of material things that other people in my income range enjoyed. I know there are genuine need situations out there, but feel it's a statistically small number. There is to much instant gratification and entitlement attitudes out there. I have donated a lot of money and time to shelters and domestic abuse shelters and do know the difference between need and wants.

[Deleted]

Jun 27, 2014 7:01:16 GMT -5 Blonde Granny said:

I thought the picture of the woman in this article was interesting. She can't pay her water bill, but she certainly could pay for her tattoos.

In all fairness... we don't know who paid for her tattoos. I have one, and I didn't pay a dime for it (it was a birthday present from an artist and some strippers I used to be friends with).

[resolution]

The article seems to be missing the picture of the tattoo lady now, so I will have to use my imagination. Do you think if I write to my senator they will hook town water up to my house? Right now I am stuck capturing and treating rain water off my roof.

[973beachbum]

This is such a hard thing from a public standpoint.  Around here water is normally bundled with sewage.  While I probably could find a way to gather rain water it would be difficult and could cause a public health problem.  I make it my mission to make sure no standing water is ever left that way.  It is a breeding ground for things like misquitos and flies that cause west nile virus along other things that make people very sick.  And my thought of people with no way to flush the toilets is collera.

there is a reason why so many communities require people to hook up to city sewer and water.  This is just a big steaming pile of poo waiting to happen.

[zibazinski]

I guess one of detroits finest politicians asked the UN to get involved and pay the bills. Good grief. Now I realize that sleazy politicians have no shame either so why should Detroit?

[MarleyKeezy78]

Why the hell should the UN pay the bills 

[zibazinski]

They are wanting the UN to demand it as a HUMAN RIGHT.

[cael]

I think the UN has already declared access to safe water a basic human right... their stance however obviously comes from the third and developing world, where problems with access to safe water for drinking and sanitation purposes is completely different from people in Detroit being shut off for nonpayment. There are completely separate and more dire problems with access to safe water for people in the developing world than this Detroit thing. I don't know what I think about this being applied to Detroit..

www.un.org/waterforlifedecade/human_right_to_water.shtml here's some more information, just food for thought. If you look at their bullet points, they include sufficiency, safety, accessibility and affordability of water - those conditions are met with municipal water service anywhere in the US I'd imagine - when you pay the bill. "The United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) suggests that water costs should not exceed 3 per cent of household income." - I know water rates aren't tiered (are they?) and don't know what the water rates in Detroit or anywhere else are, and this is a 'suggestion' and again, not made with the first world in mind, made with the third/developing world in mind.

What's an average for water rates in the US? Again I don't know where I stand on this really, but I see a disconnect with applying minimum suggested standards for third world countries to the first world.

[Deleted]

The people of Detroit HAVE "access"... all they have to do is pay their water bill.

[zibazinski]

But, but, but SOMEBODY is responsible for my choices, not me, of course.

[b2r]

www.trbimg.com/img-53af745c/turbine/la-apphoto-detroit-water-shutoffs2-jpg-20140628/750/16x9

Dirty dishes are piled in the sink of her crowded kitchen, where the yellow-and-green linoleum floor is soiled and sticky. A small garbage can is filled with water from a neighbor, while a bigger one sits outside in the yard, where she hopes it will collect some rain. She's developed an intricate recycling system of washing the dishes, cleaning the floor and flushing the toilet with the same water.

"It's frightening, because you think this is something that only happens somewhere like Africa," said Hill, a single mother who is studying homeland security at a local college. "But now I know what they're going through — when I get somewhere there's a water faucet, I drink until my stomach hurts."

Hill is one of thousands of residents in Detroit who have had their water and sewer services turned off as part of a crackdown on customers who are behind on their bills. In April, the city set a target of cutting service to 3,000 customers a week who were more than $150 behind on their bills. In May, the water department sent out 46,000 warnings and cut off service to 4,531. The city says that cutting off water is the only way to get people to pay their bills as Detroit tries to emerge from bankruptcy — the utility is currently owed $90 million from customers, and nearly half the city's 300,000 or so accounts are past due.

www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-detroit-water-20140629-story.html

[zibazinski]

Well, then they will live in filth until they pay their bills. About time they started to realize that needs come before wants.

[MarleyKeezy78]

We are going to start seeing wash stations on the edge of the Detroit River before they take responsibility paying for their own water  We in the suburbs owe to them you know

[zibazinski]

I know.

[973beachbum]

My problem isn't that people should pay for their utilities it is that they can't not use water and sewer.  If I don't have electricity I can still live fine although in the dark.  I can just not use the things that need it. 

But I can't not take a shit.  I don't get how that isn't making it through to people.  So people are forced to go in a way that is guaranteed to spread diseases like collera.  How are the suburban people going to feel when the dumping of shit into their river sends the collera down river? 

It may have been a monetary problem that started it, but their solution is creating a public health problem. 

[zibazinski]

No one with any brains goes in that water anyway.

[Deleted]

Jul 1, 2014 18:10:11 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

The people of Detroit HAVE "access"... all they have to do is pay their water bill.

Its interesting how more than half the people who received the cut off notices paid up and a substantial amount made payment plans.

[Sam_2.0]

Most people will pay when they get a notice, whether that's a partial payment, arrangement, or pay the full arrears. Then you get some, like my particular subset of customers, that ride out the system without payment sometimes for more than a year. Then the situation is completely unmanageable because they can't come up with $3,000+ so service is shut off. Then they go to the news and the utilities commissions to complain about the mean old utility company being completely unwilling to work with them. Seriously annoys me.

I wonder how much tampering and illegal water usage they are dealing with as well? Locks on meters aren't that hard to break and illegally turn back on. Which means the actual rate payers are going to be stuck with not only the bad debt from the unpaid bills, but the general losses from unbilled services. All it does is makes bills higher for those that do pay. Honestly they should just go to every person that pays and tell them they also have to pay a delinquent bill, since that's basically what's going to happen.