Is access to utility service without payment a "right"?

[Sam_2.0]

The story of the Detroit water company has been turning off delinquent customers and now there's a plea to the UN for assistance?

www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2014/06/23/detroit_shuts_off_water_for_residents_united_nations_asked_to_help.html

I understand utilities are a basic part of operating a home. I work for the electric company and deal with delinquent customers. But it is still a service and not a "right". People can't use an unlimited amount of resources without payment for those resources. I understand that city has a ton of issues and may not have the assistance resources available to help those that really need it. But this could be a bad turn for other utilities across the country. Bad debt is already included in rates and it seriously annoys me that those who pay their bill also have to end up paying for those that don't. I see people that are trying hard and fall on bad times, and work with them to get through it without interuption of service if possible. But 90% of the ones I get are just playing the game and happy to let someone else foot the bill. GRRRRR!

[Deleted]

I believe that's the way all services are headed. Those who can pay will be paying for those who can't or won't. 
I agree, not right.

[The Captain]

Well let's see what's been suggested in various threads so far:

1.  Healthcare = a right
2.  Food = a right (and it should be organic and grass fed to reduce costs to the taxpayers later on)
3.  Housing = a right
4.  Dental care = a right
5.  Eyeglasses/eyecare = a right
6.  Hearing aids = a right
7.  Braces = a right
8.  Air conditioning = a right
9.  Heating = a right
10.  Substance abuse treatment = a right
11.  Same lunch as those who pay for theirs = a right
12.  Access to extracirricular activites = a right
13.  Internet access = a right
14.  A smart phone = a right
15.  Paid maternity leave = a right
16.  Paid paternity leave = a right
17.  Paid FMLA leave to care for a sick relative = a right
18.  A "dignified" retirement even if you didn't save one dollar = a right
19.  And if you are actually working and paying taxes to cover all those rights for everyone else, you should have the right to at least 12 weeks of vacation a year.

Problem is, as the list of "rights" climbs, so does the amount of unfunded obligations that we expect future generations to pay more for then we are willing to pay for ourselves.

[Tennesseer]

I have no issue with a utility company cutting off customers who refuse to pay their bills with one exception: electricity during the very coldest and hottest times of the year. 

My utility company has a non-disconnect winter electricity moratorium for senior citizens (60 and older) and physically challenged customers between December 1 through March 1 of every year.  To be eligible, there must be no past due amounts as of November 30 and the past due winter balance must be paid and is spread over a three month period beginning March 2 (as I understand it) in addition to what is used by the customer beginning March 2. 

There is also a non-disconnect warm weather electricity moratorium for the same group when heat indexes are 95 degrees or greater at any time in a 24-hour period (which usually means June through August here).

 After that, cut off electricity, gas and water until paid up.

[Deleted]

I do think 'rights' become relative... What is a morally appropriate bottom line standard of living in this country? 

The issue I have with utilities like water is, well, what are they washing with and using for a toilet? If infectious disease, etc. spread because people lack basic sanitation and refrigeration... It really isn't good for any of us...

[zibazinski]

Now they just stick the landlord with the bills.

[Deleted]

The utility companies should be allowed to go confiscate their iphones and sell them.


If it is a right, it will be abused.  Thats the way it is now.

[Sam_2.0]

Tenn - there's a Cold Weather Rule and a Hot Weather Rule in our state. It prevents disconnecting on days when the temps are too low or high but not just a blanket moratorium.

LIHEAP covers $1100 annually for those in need. If one is conservative with their usage I've seen that cover both gas and electric or come close. Now one of the states is starting to require a 10% co-payment from the customer before getting assistance since so many weren't making any payment at all on their own account. I think having to come up with $70 before they pay $700 seems fair. There's low-income weatherization programs too to help make a house more efficient in the long run.

I am all for helping those that need it. I work things out all the time. What I dont like is those who have not made any attempt to pay on their own account and getting mad at me because they cant afford the place with $700/month bills!! Maybe its time to move to something more affordable.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using proboards

[Opti]

LIHEAP covers $1100 annually for those in need. If one is conservative with their usage I've seen that cover both gas and electric or come close. Now one of the states is starting to require a 10% co-payment from the customer before getting assistance since so many weren't making any payment at all on their own account. I think having to come up with $70 before they pay $700 seems fair. There's low-income weatherization programs too to help make a house more efficient in the long run.

Interesting. I wonder if it is different state by state. I think the limit is around $300 here in NJ,

at least for a single person as myself. You would need to be on a different program here like USF

to have a chance of qualifying for all or most of your utility bills to be covered.

[Deleted]

Utilities for free are not a "right"... ACCESS to them, if you pay your bill... that's something I could consider a "right"

I could see utilities being a funded BENEFIT for the handicapped, or elderly and infirm... but that's an assistance program... not a "right".

I have to work and pay for my electric... why should someone else get it for free if they are able to work too?




The Captain: Internet Access absolutely should be a right... how could people come here without Internet Access?

[EVT1]

Is there a 'right' to water- absolutely.  Is there a right to water that has been gathered, treated and pumped through infrastructure-no there is not.

[EVT1]

Jun 25, 2014 14:44:44 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Well let's see what's been suggested in various threads so far:

1.  Healthcare = a right
2.  Food = a right (and it should be organic and grass fed to reduce costs to the taxpayers later on)
3.  Housing = a right
4.  Dental care = a right
5.  Eyeglasses/eyecare = a right
6.  Hearing aids = a right
7.  Braces = a right
8.  Air conditioning = a right
9.  Heating = a right
10.  Substance abuse treatment = a right
11.  Same lunch as those who pay for theirs = a right
12.  Access to extracirricular activites = a right
13.  Internet access = a right
14.  A smart phone = a right
15.  Paid maternity leave = a right
16.  Paid paternity leave = a right
17.  Paid FMLA leave to care for a sick relative = a right
18.  A "dignified" retirement even if you didn't save one dollar = a right
19.  And if you are actually working and paying taxes to cover all those rights for everyone else, you should have the right to at least 12 weeks of vacation a year.

Problem is, as the list of "rights" climbs, so does the amount of unfunded obligations that we expect future generations to pay more for then we are willing to pay for ourselves.

See where you are going, but you you cannot mix "rights" with things that a modern society decides to do to improve the life of the citizens.

Not going to comment individually, but solid healthcare, a decent retirement, family leave, and the rest is something to aspire to.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think the people that are so pissed off at these programs are the same people that believe poor people drive up in Escalades to buy their steaks and lobster with food stamps. 

And really- you have a problem with paid maternity or paternity leave? FLMA (The USA weak ass bullshit)?  Do you even know how other countries handle these issues?  And I am going to assume you think mandatory vacation time is bullshit too- although you didn't ding it as another internet right.

Do you just think the USA should be a shithole for workers or what? 

[truthbound]

No it's not a right.

[Deleted]

A right is a moral entitlement to receive something or act in a certain way. 

If we deem some water sources public entities, restrict the drilling of wells, and harness the water, which is necessary for life, more necessary than food... 

Moral rights are also relative. Plus we need to consider the necessity of maintaining a democratic republic, one which is free as can be of infectious disease and poor health. 

I don't think you should be able to deny children access to water. Sorry. I've taught kids who didn't have access, kids shouldn't smell. They should have access to clean clothes and be able to brush their teeth and use a toilet. 

[Sam_2.0]

Jun 26, 2014 5:50:46 GMT -5 oped said:

A right is a moral entitlement to receive something or act in a certain way. 

If we deem some water sources public entities, restrict the drilling of wells, and harness the water, which is necessary for life, more necessary than food... 

Moral rights are also relative. Plus we need to consider the necessity of maintaining a democratic republic, one which is free as can be of infectious disease and poor health. 

I don't think you should be able to deny children access to water. Sorry. I've taught kids who didn't have access, kids shouldn't smell. They should have access to clean clothes and be able to brush their teeth and use a toilet. 

The problem is these children are being "cared" for by parents that are not supplying the basic necessities for their kids, and then using their kids to get sympathy. I can't tell you how many times I hear "You can't disconnect me, I have kids and that would be illegal" meanwhile mom & dad have written bad checks, tampered with services, etc. I feel terrible for the kids being raised in that kind of environment and for being used as pawns by their parents. I know those are the exceptions and not everyone does this, it's just those exceptions are the ones I personally interact with all the time and it makes me angry.

[Deleted]

Oh parents can certainly piss you off... I still don't think kids should be punished for parent decisions though, or the rest of society.

Maybe we should strengthen the rules under which children can be removed from the home, but 1 ) we already have overworked child services and foster care (which isn't that great anyway)... So what to do with them? And 2) anytime you give the state more authority that way, it also opens good patents up to censure...

[The Captain]

Jun 25, 2014 21:29:19 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Jun 25, 2014 14:44:44 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Well let's see what's been suggested in various threads so far:

1.  Healthcare = a right
2.  Food = a right (and it should be organic and grass fed to reduce costs to the taxpayers later on)
3.  Housing = a right
4.  Dental care = a right
5.  Eyeglasses/eyecare = a right
6.  Hearing aids = a right
7.  Braces = a right
8.  Air conditioning = a right
9.  Heating = a right
10.  Substance abuse treatment = a right
11.  Same lunch as those who pay for theirs = a right
12.  Access to extracirricular activites = a right
13.  Internet access = a right
14.  A smart phone = a right
15.  Paid maternity leave = a right
16.  Paid paternity leave = a right
17.  Paid FMLA leave to care for a sick relative = a right
18.  A "dignified" retirement even if you didn't save one dollar = a right
19.  And if you are actually working and paying taxes to cover all those rights for everyone else, you should have the right to at least 12 weeks of vacation a year.

Problem is, as the list of "rights" climbs, so does the amount of unfunded obligations that we expect future generations to pay more for then we are willing to pay for ourselves.

See where you are going, but you you cannot mix "rights" with things that a modern society decides to do to improve the life of the citizens.  I agree to a limited extent, but I also think we have an ever expaninding view of what "society" should do for it's citizens as opposed to what people should do for themselves.

Not going to comment individually, but solid healthcare, a decent retirement, family leave, and the rest is something to aspire to.  Even if the individual, while capable, does nothing to achieve such on their own?

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think the people that are so pissed off at these programs are the same people that believe poor people drive up in Escalades to buy their steaks and lobster with food stamps.  Actually go back and look at my list, I was attempting to demonstrate a trend of things that in the past which were considered luxuries now becoming things you have the right to simply by the act of breathing.  And I'm pissed at these programs because there is no design, plan, or real reason for a significant percentage of people on such programs to take steps to eliminate their dependence on such.  I have a HUGE problem when you have three generations of the same family who have been constantly on welfare.  (Especially since it's only been around that long).  As I've posted before, I've seen this firsthand myself with the section 8 rentals in my area.  You want to see poverty?  Google Cook county section 8 rental then let's talk.

Wait - I'll save you the effort:  www.gosection8.com/Section-8-housing-in-Cook-county-IL/.  There are over 1700 available in one county alone to use as a sample.  There are nicer ones that are already taken so what you see is really some of the worst.  Go ahead and tell me about the crappy slum conditions the poor live in ...

And really- you have a problem with paid maternity or paternity leave? FLMA (The USA weak ass bullshit)?  Yes - I have a problem with granting benefits to any specific class - what about the single people?  What if you never have a family member that gets sick?  What if your co-worker has a child with a cronic condition and you have to pick up their workload because your office can't be competitive if you hire excess workforce.

Do you even know how other countries handle these issues?  You mean the ones that are going broke?  The ones that have stronger trade protections in place and aren't competing with every third world country? And I am going to assume you think mandatory vacation time is bullshit too- although you didn't ding it as another internet right.  Note HOW MUCH vacation time I stated.  So tell me, how is someone supposed to pay for all these "rights", support themselves, AND take 12 weeks of vaction a year.  Yet 12 weeks is what was suggested by some posters here.  My grandfather retired with 12 weeks, said it was ridiculous, and we wonder why the steel mills went bust?  Excessive union pay and benefits were part of what drove steel production overseas.

Do you just think the USA should be a shithole for workers or what? 

No, I actually think I'm much more into protecting the worker then are you:

You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the
other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is
going to get what they work for, that my dear friend, is about the end of any
nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it."

~ Dr. Adrian Rogers, 1931

My responses in bold above. I'm enjoying the discussion .

[Deleted]

"I believe slavery is a much maligned institution; if we had slavery today, we would not have this welfare mess." ... More from Adrian Rogers...

[The Captain]

Not even close to being the same, but well no, can't even say nice try.

[Deleted]

? Not sure what you mean? That was another quote by Rogers according to one of his Southern Baptist pals... 

[Deleted]

Jun 26, 2014 13:27:17 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Jun 25, 2014 21:29:19 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

See where you are going, but you you cannot mix "rights" with things that a modern society decides to do to improve the life of the citizens.  I agree to a limited extent, but I also think we have an ever expaninding view of what "society" should do for it's citizens as opposed to what people should do for themselves.

I think this is an interesting topic. America is a relatively short experiment in this idea of independence as highest virtue. Most of humanity for most of its history has had a very societal view of civilization... So it's an interesting idea to explore.

[Tennesseer]

Jun 26, 2014 13:27:17 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Jun 25, 2014 21:29:19 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

 

No, I actually think I'm much more into protecting the worker then are you:

You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the
other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is
going to get what they work for, that my dear friend, is about the end of any
nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it."

~ Dr. Adrian Rogers, 1931

My responses in bold above. I'm enjoying the discussion .

While your quote of Dr. Rogers is correct, the year he said it is incorrect, as Dr. Rogers was born in 1931.  The quote is often incorrectly dated.  The quote is from a 1984 sermon and then added to his book, God’s Way to Health, Wealth and Wisdom.

[The Captain]

Jun 26, 2014 13:44:46 GMT -5 oped said:

Jun 26, 2014 13:27:17 GMT -5 The Captain said:

I think this is an interesting topic. America is a relatively short experiment in this idea of independence as highest virtue. Most of humanity for most of its history has had a very societal view of civilization... So it's an interesting idea to explore.

Absolutely!  I'm not sure what you mean by most of humanity having a societal view of civilization.  There are tradeoffs that I'm not sure most (supposedly) independent minded Americans are willing to make.

For example in China, individuals had to give up many freedoms in order for the society to advance - is that what you're after - policies like one couple one child?

Hungary and Agrentina nationalized private retirement accounts in order to fund public pensions - if you have individual savings is that what you advocate for? Sound fair or right?

Many mines have been nationalized in Africa - tell me - how well is that working out for the populace?

As far as other items, I've asked before how we could fund all these programs without raising income taxes by 10% or more and implementing a national VAT tax of 13-19% on top of that.  No one seemed to have the stomach for that or just came up with a "well I don't think we will have to do that". 

I think it's great to give everything to all, but I sure as hell feel for my kids or grandkids when the bill comes due and their standard of living will be much lower than ours.

It's already happening.  I think generation Y is the first one (maybe X also) who will not have a better, and in many cases worse, standard of living then their parents. Working adults already pay 27X's more in SS taxes then did their grandparents when it was implemented. And the worker to retiree ratio isn't getting bigger you know, right?

[The Captain]

Jun 26, 2014 14:09:49 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Jun 26, 2014 13:27:17 GMT -5 The Captain said:

My responses in bold above. I'm enjoying the discussion .

While your quote of Dr. Rogers is correct, the year he said it is incorrect, as Dr. Rogers was born in 1931.  The quote is often incorrectly dated.  The quote is from a 1984 sermon and then added to his book, God’s Way to Health, Wealth and Wisdom.

Thanks for the correction and Cite, Tennesser!  I will have to check out that book - have you read it?

[Deleted]

Lol. 

I'm not really an everything to all person.  You seem to see only two positions on everything?

And it will always be harder for the generation that comes after the one that financed everything on credit.

[Tennesseer]

Jun 26, 2014 14:14:17 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Jun 26, 2014 14:09:49 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

While your quote of Dr. Rogers is correct, the year he said it is incorrect, as Dr. Rogers was born in 1931.  The quote is often incorrectly dated.  The quote is from a 1984 sermon and then added to his book, God’s Way to Health, Wealth and Wisdom.

Thanks for the correction and Cite, Tennesser!  I will have to check out that book - have you read it?

No I have not.  But I looked it up the quote (and saw the quote date issue) only because Dr. Rogers was the senior pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church here in Memphis.

[The Captain]

Jun 26, 2014 14:20:23 GMT -5 oped said:

Lol. 

I'm not really an everything to all person.  You seem to see only two positions on everything?

And it will always be harder for the generation that comes after the one that financed everything on credit.

No, really I'm not.  But you have to remember I have a MST and the history of taxation in the US is more than just a hobby to me.

The first individual income tax was not implemented until 1913.  Even then, I think less than 1 or maybe 5% of the population was impacted.  When SS was first put in place the rate was 2% and it was capped at 3,000 or about 48K in today's dollars.  The rate is now in excess of 6% (not counting Medicare) and the wage base was increased to over 114K.  There are some proposing increasing the SS rate to 7-9% and removing the wage base all together (which is a horrible idea BTW as those with higher incomes would get greater benefits). 

If someone had said back in 1930 that the government will take .30-50 cents of every dollar you earned there would have been a revolt.  So instead, it's slowly crept up while the national debt has increased at a greater rate.

At some point the ponzi scheme has to fall.  It's not even been going on for a century and we've had numerous "crisis" and threats of insolvency. As our population ages, the number of workers supporting those who don't work is decreasing. Add to that the increasing numbers of people who don't work but are supported by other social service programs and the results become even more skewed.

Personally, I would rather not just sit back and go "oh well" we'll leave it for the next generation to figure out.  I don't want my DD's life to be harder than mine.

We have bridges crumbling, streets and schools in need of repair, and seniors who can't afford assistance but we pay people unemployement and claim a significant % of our population is incapable of contributing to society in any way.  I just think we can do better.

I would be all for a public works program.  Not sure why we didn't get one started up during the economic crash instead of paying 99 weeks of unemployement.

[Deleted]

Even then, I think less than 1 or maybe 5% of the population was impacted.

Which 1-5% was that? 


National debt has fluctuated. It hasn't been a straight line. 

Sigh, i need a keyboard. I'm stuck with short pecking answers.

[EVT1]

Jun 26, 2014 13:27:17 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Jun 25, 2014 21:29:19 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Not going to comment individually, but solid healthcare, a decent retirement, family leave, and the rest is something to aspire to.  Even if the individual, while capable, does nothing to achieve such on their own?

And really- you have a problem with paid maternity or paternity leave? FLMA (The USA weak ass bullshit)?  Yes - I have a problem with granting benefits to any specific class - what about the single people?  What if you never have a family member that gets sick?  What if your co-worker has a child with a cronic condition and you have to pick up their workload because your office can't be competitive if you hire excess workforce.

Do you even know how other countries handle these issues?  You mean the ones that are going broke?  The ones that have stronger trade protections in place and aren't competing with every third world country? And I am going to assume you think mandatory vacation time is bullshit too- although you didn't ding it as another internet right.  Note HOW MUCH vacation time I stated.  So tell me, how is someone supposed to pay for all these "rights", support themselves, AND take 12 weeks of vaction a year.  Yet 12 weeks is what was suggested by some posters here.  My grandfather retired with 12 weeks, said it was ridiculous, and we wonder why the steel mills went bust?  Excessive union pay and benefits were part of what drove steel production overseas.

My responses in bold above. I'm enjoying the discussion .

Define doing nothing?  Some very hard working people in this country are never going to make enough to provide themselves with good healthcare, good retirement, the ability to cover a leave from work, a vacation, etc.

Other countries figured this out a long time ago and instituted polices to ensure all workers can have a decent life- what's the problem with that?

And what should we do with the FMLA?  Get rid of it and go back to firing women who get pregnant or have to take care of a sick family member?  And also on that note who cares if captain healthy never needs to use FMLA- frigging great- they should be happy about it, not complain because some coworker is getting paid while they are going through a tough time.  In fact I remember once such incident where we all had to step up to cover someone who had to be out- don't recall anyone having a problem with it.

We have the right to set the bar for workers and employers and we can do better.  Anyone that works full time should have paid time off- for vacation, sickness, whatever.  Along with that goes access to healthcare and retirement security.  Anyone in this country that works their entire life deserves no less

[EVT1]

Jun 26, 2014 14:44:46 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Jun 26, 2014 14:20:23 GMT -5 oped said:

We have bridges crumbling, streets and schools in need of repair, and seniors who can't afford assistance but we pay people unemployement and claim a significant % of our population is incapable of contributing to society in any way.  I just think we can do better.

I would be all for a public works program.  Not sure why we didn't get one started up during the economic crash instead of paying 99 weeks of unemployement.

Now that's fine idea- and it has always been my opinion that the government becomes the employer of last resort.

In other words- you are either disabled or you are going to be working.  Plenty of work to be done in this country.

And if you can work but choose not to- then I guess you are screwed.  But that takes a jobs program- can't be any worse than what we have now.