The Criminalization of Poverty is Real

[kittensaver]

And horrible, IMHO.

thinkprogress.org/economy/2014/06/12/3448105/mother-dies-jail-cell-fines/

So much for some folks' claims that "nothing" ever happens to "those" "lowlifes" and scufflaws . . .

[Peace Of Mind]

I think this particular story is a bad example because what put her in jail was something she could have resolved without tons of money.  Her kids should have been in school.   Also - she could have died no matter where she was.  If she was at work and died would that be a good reason to never work again?  Ok - bad example because my answer would be Yes!   but you get what I mean.

"A mother of seven died in a Pennsylvania jail over the weekend while serving a two-day sentence. Eileen DeNino, 55, was put in the cell where she died because she could not pay thousands of dollars in fines relating to her children’s truancy from schools in the Reading, PA area.

The cause of DeNino’s death is not yet known, but investigators “found no evidence that the death was suspicious,” according to the Eagle. She was reportedly on medication for high blood pressure and other health issues. “Prison officials said they issued no medication to DeNino before her death,” however."

[kittensaver]

Well POM of course you are right - things should be very different than they are with this family (the kids should be in school, etc). But that's unfortunately not their reality. I think the thing that bothers me most is this idea that some folks hold that "those people" are just lazy shiftless bums that "do nothing" and "get away with murder" because no one holds them accountable.

Clearly (and tragically) that was not the case here.

[Peace Of Mind]

Jun 12, 2014 15:27:14 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

Well POM of course you are right - things should be very different than they are with this family (the kids should be in school, etc). But that's unfortunately not their reality. I think the thing that bothers me most is this idea that some folks hold that "those people" are just lazy shiftless bums that "do nothing" and "get away with murder" because no one holds them accountable.

Clearly (and tragically) that was not the case here.

I don't understand this part (bolded).   

I guess what I meant was that she didn't die because she was starved, frozen, had heat stroke or on the streets through no fault of her own and it was because of her being poor or mistreated in some way.  Or that she wasn't thrown in jail through no fault of her own like the woman here recently due to mistaken identity.  I guess I'm not getting how being poor was the problem. 

 

[Tennesseer]

"The cause of DeNino’s death is not yet known, but investigators “found no evidence that the death was suspicious,” according to the Eagle. She was reportedly on medication for high blood pressure and other health issues. “Prison officials said they issued no medication to DeNino before her death,” however."

The above most definitely needs to be looked into.

[EVT1]

It is very real. Debtors' prisons are making a comeback. It's no secret we number one in the world when it comes to incarcerating our own citizens- but apparently it isn't enough.

Add private, for-profit prisons, cheap inmate labor into the mix and look out. Didn't Reagan start this trend with privatizing prisons and jailing the shit out of drug offenders? I seem to recall something about it.

[The Captain]

From the article:

"DeNino had been cited 55 times since 1999, according to the Reading Eagle. On top of the individual fines for truancy, the Pennsylvania courts applied a variety of fees that amplified DeNino’s debt. “DiNino’s court file shows a laundry list of court fees for one case alone: $8 for a ‘judicial computer project’; $60 for Berks County constables; $10 for postage,” the Associated Press writes.

The two judges who preside over truancy cases in the county where the DeNinos live expressed regret and frustration over DeNino’s death. “She didn’t have a job. She was living in a house owned by a family member. She was on welfare. We sat and talked for a long time in my office and I could see that she couldn’t pay the fines,” Reading District Judge Wally Scott told the Eagle. “I cleared all her cases last year.”

District Judge Dean R. Patton sentenced DeNino to 48 hours in jail after she failed to produce documentary evidence of her inability to pay the more than $2,000 in accrued fines and fees.  “I bent over backwards for this woman,” Patton told the Eagle, “but I can’t just dismiss her cases without justification.”"


She wasn't sent to jail because she was poor, she went to jail because she didn't give a damn if her kids went to school and couldn't even be bothered to prove she couldn't pay the fines.  She was thumbing her nose at both the courts and the school system.

Seriously people, how do we get some parent's attention?    Don't care if your 7 kids get an education?  Well, that's ok - we'll just let you set them up for the same level of success you've managed for yourself.  Cause it's cruel to take kids away from their loving families who are doing the best the can for their kids...

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Jun 12, 2014 15:27:14 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

Well POM of course you are right - things should be very different than they are with this family (the kids should be in school, etc). But that's unfortunately not their reality. I think the thing that bothers me most is this idea that some folks hold that "those people" are just lazy shiftless bums that "do nothing" and "get away with murder" because no one holds them accountable.

Clearly (and tragically) that was not the case here.

As they do not have a cause of death yet, then it is entirely likely she could have died in her own bed.

She didn't die because she was in jail.  That happened to be an unfortunate accident.  It's also unlikely she died from not receiving her BP meds for 48 hours, unless she had been non-compliant in the weeks leading up to this.

[mmhmm]

I'm a little nonplussed about the 19-year-old fellow who was jailed because he caught the wrong kind of bass.  What was he supposed to do?  I guess he could put a sign on the hook (next to the bait) that says (in fish lingo): "Don't bite unless you're a rock bass!"

[haapai]

Jun 12, 2014 18:58:35 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

 
She didn't die because she was in jail.  That happened to be an unfortunate accident.  It's also unlikely she died from not receiving her BP meds for 48 hours, unless she had been non-compliant in the weeks leading up to this.

True, they don't have a cause of death yet, but I'm not so certain about your claim that she must have been off meds for weeks.  Do you have any medical training or specific knowledge that leads you to make this claim? 

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

but I'm not so certain about your claim that she must have been off meds for weeks. Do you have any medical training or specific knowledge that leads you to make this claim?

I didn't claim that she was off her meds for weeks. Losing a couple days of BP meds really does not matter unless she was non-compliant with her meds before she got thrown into jail. If she was not taking them regularly, then losing those 2 days could cause problems. Under normal circumstances, it might jack the numbers up maybe 10 points.

I know for me, losing a couple days takes me from 130/70 to 140/80. Untreated, I run around 170/95 and I need to be without meds for about a week to go back to those levels.

[bobosensei]

Jun 12, 2014 19:26:32 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

I'm a little nonplussed about the 19-year-old fellow who was jailed because he caught the wrong kind of bass.  What was he supposed to do?  I guess he could put a sign on the hook (next to the bait) that says (in fish lingo): "Don't bite unless you're a rock bass!"

When you catch a fish out of season you are supposed to throw it back.  This makes it sound like the person either didn't know they had the wrong type of fish, which isn't an excuse, or they just thought they would get away with it and someone caught them.

[zibazinski]

No different than lobster season in Florida. Tails are supposed to be 6 inches. SMART people make sure they're at least 6 and a bit more because you can get stopped and measured and if they're close, it can not go your way!

[chiver78]

fines for truancy...? that's a new one for me. is that common?

[The Captain]

Jun 13, 2014 8:09:12 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

fines for truancy...? that's a new one for me. is that common?

Can't speak everywhere but a neighbor works in a local school system.  She says truancy is the second biggest problem, only slightly behind gangs.

Around here they can fine the parent up to $100 for each unexcused truancy.  When there is excessive truancy or behavioral problems the parent is ordered to court to address the issue. (It takes an obscene amount of activity for this to happen).   There are court fees associated with such appearences which can get waived if they can prove a hardship.  I don't know if the fine can be waived.

They don't want to impose the fines, they want the kids in school.  Some schools have a graduation rate under 70%.  How can we get the parent's attention (and trust me there are more that don't give a damn then I want to know about).

Parents have to sign and send in a form at the beginning of the school year, so the policy is no surprise to them.  I know, I had to sign one when we enrolled DD in her new school.



 

[Virgil Showlion]

Captain is right: would people here prefer states do nothing to enforce the mandate that children attend school? And if the mandate is worth enforcing, what is the appropriate penalty for truancy? An endless stream of harshly-worded letters?

[kittensaver]

Jun 13, 2014 9:04:07 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Captain is right: would people here prefer states do nothing to enforce the mandate that children attend school? And if the mandate is worth enforcing, what is the appropriate penalty for truancy? An endless stream of harshly-worded letters?

This. What actually struck me most about this article (and why I posted it) is the actions taken by the judge/the system. I've seen many people on these Boards proclaim that "the system" does "nothing" and that all those waste-of-space-lowlife-folks-on-welfare "get away" with "everything."

Um, well, no they don't - and here is proof. Tragic proof. 7 children now have no mother. Is she probably not the County's most upstanding citizen? Probably not. But does a family deserve to lose their mother over fines (and penalties for not paying fines) that ballooned out of control because she is poor? In my world - no. But of course, YMMV.

[The Captain]

Jun 13, 2014 10:15:11 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

Jun 13, 2014 9:04:07 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Captain is right: would people here prefer states do nothing to enforce the mandate that children attend school? And if the mandate is worth enforcing, what is the appropriate penalty for truancy? An endless stream of harshly-worded letters?

This. What actually struck me most about this article (and why I posted it) is the actions taken by the judge/the system. I've seen many people on these Boards proclaim that "the system" does "nothing" and that all those waste-of-space-lowlife-folks-on-welfare "get away" with "everything."

Um, well, no they don't - and here is proof. Tragic proof. 7 children now have no mother. Is she probably not the County's most upstanding citizen? Probably not. But does a family deserve to lose their mother over fines (and penalties for not paying fines) that ballooned out of control because she is poor? In my world - no. But of course, YMMV.

I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that she died because of some fines? .

All she had to do get them waived was provide some proof that would cause an undue hardship - which the article explicitly states she also couldn't be bothered to do.

As far as calling her a mother, sorry - she forfeited that title long before this incident.

[zibazinski]

Absolutely, 7 children? No job? No fathers? How were they being supported? The least she could do was get off her butt and be a mother. Hopefully the other children will be raised by someone decent and it isn't too late for them. I'm sure she enjoyed the money she received for them. Now about doing something to earn it? This makes me ill. So many women I know would love to be able to afford to stay home with their kids but they work.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Um, well, no they don't - and here is proof. Tragic proof. 7 children now have no mother. Is she probably not the County's most upstanding citizen? Probably not. But does a family deserve to lose their mother over fines (and penalties for not paying fines) that ballooned out of control because she is poor? In my world - no. But of course, YMMV.

You can't say this. They do not know the cause of death, she could have just as likely died in her own bed.

She didn't die because she was thrown in jail. She didn't die because her kids were truant. She didn't die because she owed fines. She died because there was something physiologically wrong with her.

[Virgil Showlion]

Jun 13, 2014 10:15:11 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

Jun 13, 2014 9:04:07 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Captain is right: would people here prefer states do nothing to enforce the mandate that children attend school? And if the mandate is worth enforcing, what is the appropriate penalty for truancy? An endless stream of harshly-worded letters?

This. What actually struck me most about this article (and why I posted it) is the actions taken by the judge/the system. I've seen many people on these Boards proclaim that "the system" does "nothing" and that all those waste-of-space-lowlife-folks-on-welfare "get away" with "everything."

Um, well, no they don't - and here is proof. Tragic proof. 7 children now have no mother. Is she probably not the County's most upstanding citizen? Probably not. But does a family deserve to lose their mother over fines (and penalties for not paying fines) that ballooned out of control because she is poor? In my world - no. But of course, YMMV.

My criticism is the same as captain's and Zib's.

This death was an anomaly, and we mustn't use anomalies to judge the fitness of a punishment. If we did, imprisonment wouldn't be a permissible punishment for repeatedly ignoring fines. If there was no punishment for repeatedly ignoring fines, the fines themselves would have no punitive value. They'd be a free supply of toilet paper from the government. And if fines had no punitive value, they'd have no effect whatsoever in curbing truancy.

The thinkprogress article argues that jail shouldn't be an option because they consider ignoring truancy laws for low-income families to be the lesser of two evils. Is this also your position?

If you're just pointing out that something as simple as fines can (in rare circumstances) lead to death, and that these deaths are tragic, I agree with you. I don't agree with the thinkprogress position that low-income families should be exempted from truancy laws. That strikes me as the surest way to ensure the cycle of poverty continues in the majority of cases.

[Miss Tequila]

Jun 13, 2014 10:15:11 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

Jun 13, 2014 9:04:07 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Captain is right: would people here prefer states do nothing to enforce the mandate that children attend school? And if the mandate is worth enforcing, what is the appropriate penalty for truancy? An endless stream of harshly-worded letters?

This. What actually struck me most about this article (and why I posted it) is the actions taken by the judge/the system. I've seen many people on these Boards proclaim that "the system" does "nothing" and that all those waste-of-space-lowlife-folks-on-welfare "get away" with "everything."

Um, well, no they don't - and here is proof. Tragic proof. 7 children now have no mother. Is she probably not the County's most upstanding citizen? Probably not. But does a family deserve to lose their mother over fines (and penalties for not paying fines) that ballooned out of control because she is poor? In my world - no. But of course, YMMV.

She didn't die because she was in prision...she wasn't shanked by Big Bertha.  She most likely had an underlying medical condition and would have died if she were home or at the corner bar.

She IS a low-life scum, in my humble opinion.  7 god damn kids, doesn't work and can't even get her lazy ass up to make sure her kids get to school?  Sorry, absolutely no sympathy from me...maybe with lazy ass mom out of the way the kids might have a shot at making something of themselves.

[zibazinski]