moneymaven
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Post by moneymaven on Jun 12, 2014 10:59:22 GMT -5
I've had my share of experience with these people and in recent discussions with friends and colleagues, these bad seeds appear to be everywhere. Their approaches are different, but the end game the same -- be the biggest and baddest wolf in the food chain and so it through creating fear in others.
How do you manage working with people like this? What if you're the target? What if you're not the target but you observe their vile behavior?
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tloonya
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Post by tloonya on Jun 12, 2014 11:16:43 GMT -5
I would say look for another job. Also I would like to read an example.
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Cass
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Post by Cass on Jun 12, 2014 11:30:36 GMT -5
Ugh. I've been in a union job 6 months now and the politics are ridiculous. So far I've learned who I can trust and who I can't, do my job the best I can and avoid any gossip or talking behind anybody's back. And my resume is quietly making it's rounds elsewhere.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jun 12, 2014 11:32:56 GMT -5
I find that laughing at them is the best thing... if they are your equal then laughing in their face just gets them all riled up and is even more fun to watch. If they are your superior then I tend to ignore and laugh behind their back.
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souldoubt
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Post by souldoubt on Jun 12, 2014 11:47:56 GMT -5
I find that laughing at them is the best thing... if they are your equal then laughing in their face just gets them all riled up and is even more fun to watch. If they are your superior then I tend to ignore and laugh behind their back. This. Years ago when I was probably 21/22 I had a female co-worker in her 40's who was just a flat out miserable person to be around, she was a bitch and everyone knew it. She got in my face in front of various other people at work and for a second I was both dumbfounded it was happening but I also wanted to respond in kind. Thankfully I didn't and I just laughed and said "whatever." She said something else and stormed off but from that point on I ignored her.
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violagirl
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Post by violagirl on Jun 12, 2014 11:49:53 GMT -5
I'm not sure if this qualifies as "bullying" but my first job at the accounting firm, there was a partner who would single me out. Now, it was obvious to everyone I was quiet and shy, and I'm not sure if he would single me out in an attempt to get me to talk or just to be mean.
So one day in the middle of a meeting he once again singled me out and I had had enough of being put on the spot so I called him on it. Everyone laughed at him and he never did it again.
Bullies are ultimately cowards. That is why they will generally back down when you stand up for yourself. I have been told I have this look I can give people that is scary. It might be termed a withering glare of contempt. I also enjoy being extra super helpful and nice to people who are bullies, especially if they are raging. Raging people can't stand calm people. I should say - super nice, but not a brown-nose type of way but more a ... you poor pitiful thing type of way which drives people crazy. See raging people above.
Now these may be different from psychopaths, but even then it would probably work.
I have the ability to be a bully (not that I do), but I have always been able to pick the weak ones of the "herd". I know who doesn't fit in and who is going to be picked on pretty quickly. There must be something about some people's demeanor that makes them more of a target in an unconscious manner.
I should say in school and I have discovered also in the office - I am neither in the "cool" group nor the "loser" group. I can get along with either but belong to none.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 12, 2014 11:59:53 GMT -5
My old dept head at my school was one. Plus, he harassed me to date him and was pissed when I didn't. Even my co-workers said to "take one for the team" so he'd stop being so nasty. I finally retired and he was forced to another school 6 months later.
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Sunnyday
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Post by Sunnyday on Jun 12, 2014 12:27:56 GMT -5
I've never seen overt bullying at my work, but I have seen a lot of passive aggressiveness. I've been the perpetrator too as well as the victim.
sometimes, passive aggressiveness is the result of living in a PC world.
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Jun 12, 2014 12:40:07 GMT -5
How do you manage working with people like this? What if you're the target? What if you're not the target but you observe their vile behavior? I wish that I knew the answers. If you figure them out, please let me know. I've been working with one of these types for about a decade and I'm worn down and starting to crack. I just don't know how to respond to the endless jaw-dropping behavior and management does nothing about it. I've gotten so hard and angry in the presence of this person that my own behavior has become very brittle.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 12, 2014 12:40:42 GMT -5
I learned very early in my working life not to take things personally at work.
I never looked for another job bc of a person, always bc of the job itself.
while not always successful, I try REALLY REALLY REALLY hard not to let people have that kind of power over me. I've gotten better at that, but no where near where I want to be
ETA: oh and also - I was always fairly good at my job, so that was a huge plus
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 12, 2014 12:44:57 GMT -5
I've worked with several who were in positions way above me. Unfortunately when that happens there isn't a lot you can do but start looking for another job.
When the veterinarian was trying to force me to comply with an edict that would have been a vary serious violation of NIH protocol the channels I am supposed to follow are to contact Research Compliance.
She was friends with the head of the department, so she "complained' first and got the ball rolling. Only my boss contacting NIH and threatening to rain fire on her head saved my bacon.
Doing that is extremely risky. My boss had the money/clout to take it all the way to NIH and survive if things fell thru. I do not.
The other was a tenured professor. He does it to everyone. He hasn't been first author on a paper in 15 years because he somehow manages to bully his way onto other people's grants. He's also still operating his lab despite one of his technicians committing a FEDERAL IACUC offense (a live animal was placed in the freezer). He's also still on the board despite the fact that offense is supposed to result in immediate dismissal.
I'd love to know who he is sleeping with or who he has dirt on, he has himself quite a cushy little empire.
You can't do anything about someone like him either, he's a tenured professor. Only thing you can do is look for another job. He has a hell of a time keeping staff.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2014 13:10:53 GMT -5
Someone on my team probably thinks I'm a bully, but they are the ultimate slacker. They get their ass ridden for a reason.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jun 12, 2014 13:18:36 GMT -5
Thank God I work where I do. Our boss/CEO is proud of his "no assholes" policy. He does not make a big deal or verbal "display" about it, but he will bring it up if necessary. We work with dependent/disabled and vulnerable adults, so it is critical that our folks AND our staff be treated with dignity and respect. He does not care how many degrees or licenses you have, if you are rude or mean or disgruntled or obstructive or disrespectful or dismissive of others, you are gone.
July 2nd is my 20th anniversary with this agency .
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Jun 12, 2014 14:05:00 GMT -5
Just remember , same butthole , different face. No matter where you work they are there. I just don't bother with these people. Why should I let them ruin my day? Don't let them under your skin.
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truthbound
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Post by truthbound on Jun 13, 2014 4:11:55 GMT -5
I would say look for another job. Also I would like to read an example. Same here. Unless someone is your boss they can't bully you. Even then they can only get away with it if you let them.
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ilovedolphins
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Post by ilovedolphins on Jun 13, 2014 9:04:42 GMT -5
Someone on my team probably thinks I'm a bully, but they are the ultimate slacker. They get their ass ridden for a reason. I have had a few employees lately that claim harassment against me because every day they come in and stand around and talk and not work and every day I tell them to stop talking and get to work.
I didn't know a manager telling people to get to work (in a nice tone) was harassment. Little did I know. But then I work in a place where you can pretty much do what you want to due to lack of upper management.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Jun 13, 2014 9:13:03 GMT -5
...:::"Only thing you can do is look for another job. He has a hell of a time keeping staff.":::...
Bullies with titles are the worst of the bunch. Everything DQ said is so spot on. When they have support in high places, its a major uphill battle -- oftentimes one not worth fighting. It takes a lot of strength and there will be considerable collateral damage. Meanwhile the person at the top just has to sit back and swipe at those who come forward.
Then there are those who take the approach of repeating a lie often enough such that they actually turn it into the truth. The more people who choose to give in, the stronger the bullies become. Not fun...
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 13, 2014 9:13:15 GMT -5
I had a bully at work. I stood up for myself and she did not back down. It actually got worse. She was vicious. My saving grace was who my allies were. I had enough people up the food chain that I knew as long as I did my job and didn't physically assault her, they would be behind me. I finally had enough and eventually just called my boss and said "I'm at the end of my rope - I am going to have to look for another job." The next day he called me and said that if I could hold on for 30 days she would be gone. As it turned out, they were in the process of firing her, but she had hired a lawyer and the agreement at the time was that she would still come to work while they fought it out. During that time frame she was extra nasty, which I can understand. I remember the day I came in and all 900 of her personal pictures were no longer in her office. I actually saw two people dancing in the hallway. It was such a relief. I would have never made it if my boss wasn't so awesome.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 13, 2014 9:17:01 GMT -5
Just remember , same butthole , different face. No matter where you work they are there. I just don't bother with these people. Why should I let them ruin my day? Don't let them under your skin. LOL - hilarious saying. I will say that everywhere I worked had the same run of the mill jerks, idiots and weirdos. But the one I consider a bully was pretty extreme. I've worked long enough at enough places to know that she was a whole different ball game. There are definitely a lot of bullies out there. I hope that all of yours are minor, short-lived or at least few and far between.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 13, 2014 9:18:49 GMT -5
It wasn't really luck. She dug her own grave. Most of the people that treat people like dirt usually cause their own demise - at least in offices of a certain size where they don't own the company (or are married to the boss or whatever.)
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 13, 2014 9:18:50 GMT -5
I just don't bother with these people. Why should I let them ruin my day? Don't let them under your skin.
I think this depends on the circumstances. With the asshole professor we collaborated with he was not my boss. My boss had my back so I could write off a lot of that guy's blustering and attempts to undermine me. He did this with pretty much everyone except his own lab staff.
In the case of research compliance that was a major problem. I was being asked by someone to violate protocol, a violation that was severe enough it could have ruined my career forever if I had complied and been caught. Research compliance is supposed to be the place I can go to safely report the situation and have it taken care of. Instead research compliance turned a blind eye because the head of the department was this woman's BFF. The only saving grace in that situation was my boss had enough clout to appeal the case to NIH. .. and win. I still lost my job because she was pissed at us for not obeying her commands, but at least I left with my reputation in tact, that was far more important.
She's done the same thing several times since and gotten her way because there is nobody at Creighton who has enough political clout/money to afford to lose if the take it to NIH.
That's NOT how this system is supposed to work. She should have been terminated after an investigation by Research Compliance. Instead she's allowed to run her own little empire.
I'll never work there again it's toxic and the people are untouchable. I like it here much better where there isn't one sole person in charge of everything, the departments have multiple people/channels I can go thru if someone commits a violation and expects me to participate.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2014 9:25:07 GMT -5
Karma loves me. Each time I've been in this situation I did my job well, stuck up for myself when necessary and eventually they were gone. The last time (at work) it was my immediate supervisor and she ended up being asked for her resignation. I then got her job at a significantly better pay rate. This was just a few months after telling me not to dare report her again as she had been with the organization over 20 years and she wasn't going anywhere. That still makes me smile
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 13, 2014 9:27:50 GMT -5
Academia is notorious for not being able to weed out the bad apples, especially in research because often time as long as they are bringing in funds the university is happy to look the other way.
It's one of the reasons I want out of academia after almost 10 years in it. I know private industry has it's problems to but the political atmosphere of academia is just too much, especially when I take into account what I make and how much work I am expected to churn out in exchange.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2014 9:53:42 GMT -5
I've had my share of experience with these people and in recent discussions with friends and colleagues, these bad seeds appear to be everywhere. Their approaches are different, but the end game the same -- be the biggest and baddest wolf in the food chain and so it through creating fear in others. How do you manage working with people like this? What if you're the target? What if you're not the target but you observe their vile behavior? I haven't worked outside the home as much as you all here probably have, so don't have a lot of experience with this. But what I have encountered was both interesting and upsetting to me. When I would witness the sharks starting to circle some fresh bait, there was some horrible thing in me that caused me to want to be included with the sharks. I've been the bait, but for some unknown reason I found it difficult to come to the defense of the bait. So I would merely go to my corner and bury my head in guilt, wondering about my reluctance to step in.
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Cass
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Post by Cass on Jun 13, 2014 14:29:34 GMT -5
This thread is very timely. I have two bullies at work (both higher on the chain so they think if they get rid of me they'll split my job). I confronted the first one and she moved to another departmentm. The second one took over where she left off. My confrontation with the second happened just last night and she walked out of the workplace immediately after (she was to be there three more hours). Soo, it remains to be seen if she quit or if I'm in for another very unpleasant meeting...
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Mardi Gras Audrey
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Post by Mardi Gras Audrey on Jun 13, 2014 14:38:17 GMT -5
Academia is notorious for not being able to weed out the bad apples, especially in research because often time as long as they are bringing in funds the university is happy to look the other way. It's one of the reasons I want out of academia after almost 10 years in it. I know private industry has it's problems to but the political atmosphere of academia is just too much, especially when I take into account what I make and how much work I am expected to churn out in exchange. Drama, If she is violating protocol wouldn't NIH pull her funding and the University's funding for allowing it to happen/not properly supervising? Wouldn't the University be more scared of losing NIH funding and their wrath then that of the researcher? I've been on the fringes of research (went to school at a major research institution and conducted some health research) and they always told us that violating protocols and not doing things appropriately were career killers and they wouldn't hesitate to yank your project and give you the boot. I got the sense at our school (and they pretty much told us) that if you did things unethically/not by protocol/etc, they would cut you off so fast your head would spin. They didn't want to go down with your sinking ship... Maybe it was different because we had people subjects and had to go to an IRB (vs. animals)? It's scary that someone can be working in research (especially with live subjects, be them animals or humans) and not be subject to lots of oversight and getting the boot for anything done that is a violation...
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 13, 2014 15:04:38 GMT -5
If she is violating protocol wouldn't NIH pull her funding and the University's funding for allowing it to happen/not properly supervising?The person I am talking about was the veterinarian for the animal facilities. She's in charge of making sure everyone else in in compliance as far as the well being of the animals. She's at the top of the ladder. And she was friends with the head of the research compliance department so who do I report her to? She was VERY careful not to do anything in writing so it'd be my word against her word. She didn't count on my boss also knowing the rules and being willing to play hard ball. The professor, I have no clue in hell what was going on there he should have lost everything. If they had been being inspected when his tech put the live mouse in the freezer the entire university could have been stripped of its animal license. That is a violation that can potentially result in jail time and at the very least you'll get fined out of existence. His lab should have been stripped of it's animal license as soon as it happened. Instead somehow he managed to get out of it and keep his license while the technician got fired (as she should!). We'd all love to know what kind of dirt he has going on the people who make these decisions. And yes it is scary, I wouldn't work for that institution again no matter how much they paid. No way I want to go down with them if the whole thing is finally busted wide open someday.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 13, 2014 15:29:45 GMT -5
Drama, If she is violating protocol wouldn't NIH pull her funding and the University's funding for allowing it to happen/not properly supervising?
Technically yes that was what was supposed to happen to the professor whose technician left a live mouse in the freezer. That could have cost the entire university it's license if they had been inspected at the time it happened.
He should have been stripped of his animal license and kicked off the board. Instead he somehow managed to manipulate it so only his technician got fired (as she should have regardless) and all he got was a slap on the wrist.
I am dying to know who he has dirt on.
In the other case it was the veterinarian in charge of the animal facility. She's the one that gets to make all the finale decisions over the animals. The only people "above" her are research compliance and she was BFF's with the head of that department.
Which makes it kinda hard to report her for non-compliance. I am a technician if the compliance department doesn't cooperate there really isn't anyone else I can turn to.
She was careful to never put things into wording that I could use to establish a paper trail. I think she was hoping she could bully me while my boss was out of the country and then if it backfired she could finger point at me. She didn't count on me having the National IACUC manual pretty much memorized and having looked up the protocol she needed to follow per NIH.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2014 16:06:45 GMT -5
I've worked with a group of bullies before and it was very unpleasant. It got even worse when their buddy was our supervisor, she's a bully too. I tried to deal with the supervisor in all the appropriate ways. I pulled her to the side and calmly requested that she stop yelling and cursing at me and saying random crazy, inappropriate things to me. She said "You're right. I apologize". And the next day she was back at it. Her bosses act almost like they're afraid of her, so talking to them did no good. One of our union officials thought I was exaggerating about how she treated me, then he had to come back to me and apologize because she admitted to him that everything I'd told him was true. She still didn't stop though. I finally got completely fed up and started talking to her just as crazy as she talked to me. That's when she finally toned it down. I don't recommend that method though. The other bullies, I mostly ignored. I got to the point where I could look right at them and not see them. Being able to tune them out by listening to my Ipod helped tremendously. Even when they did manage to get under my skin, I usually didn't let it show. One day, one of them was up to her usual nonsense and I told her "You know what? You're too old to be so silly" and walked away. She was in her late 50's at the time. I thought it was a rather mild response but I guess she'd gotten use to me ignoring them because she had a serious fit yelling and screaming and practically jumping up and down. She called security (which at our job, is as serious as calling the city police) on me and said I'd threatened her. It was a lie that could've gotten me fired. It was pretty miserable working in such a hostile environment those years. Our supervisors changed constantly because nobody wanted to deal with that group and all the problems they caused. They had to be forced to supervise our area and would get away asap. The clique finally started breaking up as they started falling out with each other and/or getting jobs in other areas. Once they were all gone, those of us that were left were able to work in peace finally. I still don't really know how to deal with bullies effectively in the workplace, even though I've been through it. Ignoring them just makes them try harder to get a reaction. Say something to them, and they might try to turn the tables and say you're the one bothering them.
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Mardi Gras Audrey
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Post by Mardi Gras Audrey on Jun 13, 2014 16:29:08 GMT -5
Drama, If she is violating protocol wouldn't NIH pull her funding and the University's funding for allowing it to happen/not properly supervising?
Technically yes that was what was supposed to happen to the professor whose technician left a live mouse in the freezer. That could have cost the entire university it's license if they had been inspected at the time it happened.
He should have been stripped of his animal license and kicked off the board. Instead he somehow managed to manipulate it so only his technician got fired (as she should have regardless) and all he got was a slap on the wrist.
I am dying to know who he has dirt on.
In the other case it was the veterinarian in charge of the animal facility. She's the one that gets to make all the finale decisions over the animals. The only people "above" her are research compliance and she was BFF's with the head of that department.
Which makes it kinda hard to report her for non-compliance. I am a technician if the compliance department doesn't cooperate there really isn't anyone else I can turn to.
She was careful to never put things into wording that I could use to establish a paper trail. I think she was hoping she could bully me while my boss was out of the country and then if it backfired she could finger point at me. She didn't count on me having the National IACUC manual pretty much memorized and having looked up the protocol she needed to follow per NIH.
Wow, just wow! I hope that isn't prevalent across research facilities. If I was the head of compliance, I wouldn't risk my job or professional reputation for her, BFF or not. I'd help my BFF bury a body but I wouldn't risk my career. I would hope the BFF would at least speak to her friend and let her know that she's on thin ice. I'd definitely try to save her butt from herself (by advising her what she was doing was wrong and she needed to stop like YESTERDAY!... but not cover up for her). I worked with a really mean bully when I was in manufacturing. She was a lead for our technician team (we were quality control) and was BFFs with our supervisor and one other tech. Her and the other tech were completely incompetent and lazy. The bully was insecure because she knew she didn't know what she was doing. She had it in for one of the other techs-another middle age female. She got in her face several times yelling at her, to the point where a male tech had to step between them and break it up. She didn't bully me (I was 20 at the time). When I first joined, she showed me the basics and I was kinda shy and polite. Once I realized what she did to the other tech and had a chance to be trained, she stayed away from me (I wasn't scared of her and would point out where she was wrong). It got really ugly towards the end of my time there.... I ended up raining fire and brimstone on her and her crony. I had documentation where she did things that would get us slapped with EPA fines and cause our manufacturing line to get shut down/slowed down. I was so angry and was quitting anyways so I went to HR (after voicing my concerns to our supervisor and getting the brush off). The other techs said they were grateful I did this (None of them would rock the boat... they had families to feed). I was hoping she would get some training, learn how to do her job, and quit picking on the other tech (The other tech was competent, nice, and worked her ass off). The bully was nice to me but it was just a bad environment for all of us...
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