It seems Iraq is in a melt down phase right now..again.

[deziloooooo]

For anyone interested in foreign doings , it seems Iraq is in a deep melt down with opposition....ISIL...{ Al Quida..}.. to ruling government taking over large parts of the north of the country..in control of third largest city and moving toward Bagdad itself....Kurds have taken this opportunity to move into a oil rich city that they have always felt was part of their heritage and Iraqi government is supposedly asking us..US of A ..for help..Airstrikes and such...This new group is very, very fundamentalist....very strong in Syria too...

Iraq has a million man army..we spent 25 billion in building it up but it seems moral very low...still deep divisions between Sunni and Shia and Malicki..their PM and countrys leader has little to bring two sides together..seems he and his people are still in payback mode from back in the day when the Sunni were in control with Saddam as their leader...

www.courant.com/news/breaking/chi-iraq-militants-20140612,0,3802379.story

Another good article on the happenings is from Debka...good explanation...

debka.com/article/23991/Al-Qaeda-forms-up-to-march-on-Baghdad-gathering-up-Iraqi-Sunni-rebels-Maliki-cries-treason

[djAdvocate]

interventionism rarely works.  if we learn that lesson and take it to heart, it will make it easier to accept this utter defeat.

[Virgil Showlion]

Looks like you guys may be providing yet more bombs and drones to the defense effort.

My condolences.

Meanwhile, east Ukraine has resumed its war against west Ukraine, oil prices are surging, and all is well with the world.

Thanks for the article, Dezi.

[deziloooooo]

Jun 12, 2014 10:33:21 GMT -5 deminmaine said:

Yup, can't argue with your assessment- very little to bring them together.
I heard al Maliki went to his Parliament to ask for emergency powers to deal with the situation.  Maybe Biden's idea to split them into three countries wasn't so far off the mark after all?

Correct ....but the problem and fear is once he gets these powers ...never relinquishes them and if survives what is happening now the powers given give his becoming even more a dictator legitimacy and we have the possibilities of another Saddam...only this time with the majority, Shia, as his base...

Biden, IMHO..had some ideas that possible were right on...In Afganistan , never wanted us to try and reform the country..just go into attack mode against Al Quida in Packinstan ...not as much of a commitment as Obama ended up doing..{the 30,000 troops...what our military leadership wanted..} and the split up along sectarian lines in Iraq...Kurds, Shia and Sunni....splitting the oil wealth...

Seems a good idea now in some ways..

[deziloooooo]

Jun 12, 2014 11:43:56 GMT -5 deziloooooo said:

Jun 12, 2014 10:33:21 GMT -5 deminmaine said:

Yup, can't argue with your assessment- very little to bring them together.
I heard al Maliki went to his Parliament to ask for emergency powers to deal with the situation.  Maybe Biden's idea to split them into three countries wasn't so far off the mark after all?

Correct ....but the problem and fear is once he gets these powers ...never relinquishes them and if survives what is happening now the powers given give his becoming even more a dictator legitimacy and we have the possibilities of another Saddam...only this time with the majority, Shia, as his base...

Biden, IMHO..had some ideas that possible were right on...In Afganistan , never wanted us to try and reform the country..just go into attack mode against Al Quida in Packinstan ...not as much of a commitment as Obama ended up doing..{the 30,000 troops...what our military leadership wanted..} and the split up along sectarian lines in Iraq...Kurds, Shia and Sunni....splitting the oil wealth...

Seems a good idea now in some ways..

It will be interesting to see how we respond...we have a President who does not want to get into all these conflicts..once in never out and too costly and not really accompishing anything but now with Al Quida becoming so strong in this area can we just sit on the side lines...I expect McCaine and GOP folks to get vocal for our getting involved..claiming a strong side has to be presented....

Actually , and I may be simplifying it but I put the blame on Malacki and his people for not trying to bring two sides together over the past decade since we pulled out or Iraq..why he is now faced with what is facing him and Iraq now...

This new Al Quida threat is also a threat to Assad and Syria so how and what does Iran do ..and they will do something IMHO....won't want Assad to fall ...Russia too could get involved and then there is Turkey also involved not discounting Israel, the Saudis and Jordan, Emerets , etc...

[Spellbound454]

Maliki brought this upon himself imo
He renaged on his promises for a unified Iraq and just favoured one particular sect.

So those who were disaffected have risen up in support of this new lot.

He can sort out his own mess. Not interested.

[Virgil Showlion]

Jun 12, 2014 12:05:38 GMT -5 deminmaine said:

Good point on Biden and Afghanistan dezi, I'd forgotten that.  Agreed with him then; in hindsight it is even more apparent.

As usual, Iraq is infinitely more sticky.  Many players who could want to get involved, and a touchstone for the entire middle east.  Gad, the brilliance of the neo-cons in the Bush Admin becomes all the more apparent, NOT.  But, it is the world's problem now.

Perhaps we should let Canada take the lead this time?

You already sucked us into the Afghanistan "reconstruction effort" money hole. Our federal government thankfully decided to cut our losses in late 2011.

Not that the US had noble intentions invading Iraq, but even assuming TPTB's objective truly had been to spread "peace and democracy", at some point we have to concede that some cultures simply aren't capable of it. The Middle East has always been violent, tribal, and sectarian. As unpalatable as dictatorships are, they're the only system of government that has proven stable in the region.

The US government has far more blood on its hands here than I think most people realize. Iraq and Afghanistan are obvious examples, but much of the bloodshed in Libya and Syria is also directly attributable to interference by the CIA and US military.

You could never tell it from the US MSM, but the US is also largely responsible for the current unrest in Turkey and the Ukraine. In the case of Turkey, the CIA sent in agitators and channeled funds to anti-establishment interests. In the Ukraine, the US was the driving force behind pushing the (deposed) former Ukrainian government to renege on Russia's extended lease on its Sevastopol port in Crimea, which of course prompted Pres. Putin to invade and annex Crimea in order to get it back.

Everywhere you look, US government and US agency hands in every pie, stirring every pot, swatting at every hornet's nest. I don't blame the American people since most Americans simply have no clue what the US government is doing. Your newsmedia is superlatively bad.

Anyway, that's my rant for the day.

[Spellbound454]

This is the same group the US's Bessie mate (Saudi Arabia ) is funding in Syria to fight Assad

So now you are supposed to bomb them to protect Malicki?.....

Lets be clear about the game plan here.
Saudi Arabia wants to attack Iran.
It is going to get to them through another Iran/Iraq war.

If it can get the US to do the fighting instead..... so that US soldiers die instead of them....Then great
The US can take the blame when another million people die...even better.

Some will say the US has a moral duty to protect Malicki.......It doesn't.

Some will say you have to do something........Like what? Do you even know who your friends are?
Drop a few bombs and what good will that do?

Its a hornets nest of sectarianism with everyone jostling for position.
The US has no place in the Middle East. It has no friends, no respect, no real allies.... and will only be manipulated in to doing something
which makes matters worse. The US has no influence in Saudi or anywhere else.....They'll just do what they want.

They are going to fight....and there is not a bloody thing we can do about it.

[Virgil Showlion]

Jun 12, 2014 13:08:44 GMT -5 deminmaine said:

Our news media is owned by the same corporate masters that run the military industrial complex Virgil.  It is really not surprising.

And we are involved in far more bloodshed than that.

The greatest pestilance in the world since WWII has been the United States of America, I'm afraid.

They don't hate us because we support democracy, after all.

I definitely wouldn't call the US a "pestilence". There's been a tremendous amount of good along with the bad. In toto, I would call the US a blessing to the world.

But starting with Vietnam and then progressively more in Iran, Kuwait, then Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, US foreign policy has shifted ever more from a blessing to a curse--for both the world at large and for the US.

I think many Americans are waking up and asking why these interventions are happening. Feeding the war machine is one reason, certainly. Access to resources is another. But on a larger scale: Why did a President elected on a platform of peace renege on his promises? Why was the US executive branch able to authorize bombings, logistical support, even manned invasions of foreign nations without Congressional approval? Why has the US been secretly supplying anti-US interests with weapons in enemy-of-my-enemy situations?

At this point even the densest observers with an eye on geopolitics must have realized that the US' post-2000 foreign policy isn't in the US's national interests in the ways that Washington claims it is. Or if we haven't reached this point yet, we'll be there soon. All the flag waving and Zero Dark Thirties in the world eventually won't sustain the blind faith in America's leaders.

The issue is particularly morally hazardous because TPTB (and Washington) are doing all of this in a desperate bid to prevent the collapse of a global economic empire most Americans don't even know America had. The US shadow government is, in one important sense, acting in the US's best interests. Anybody who claims that allowing the US's global economic hegemony to collapse would constitute only a minor blow to the wealth and prosperity of the US is drinking the Kool-Aid by the gallon. TPTB know this perfectly well, and it's why we're seeing increasingly desperate, increasingly frequent US assaults on foreign powers.

The problem is that they're losing. Quickly.

[deziloooooo]

Some good points and ideas expressed here...not meaning my own....good discussion all....

On one point ..and I believe I have missed it....Virgil, you mention..

"but much of the bloodshed in Libya and Syria is also directly attributable to interference by the CIA and US military."

beyond our initial barrage of hundreds of missles in the opening of the Libya campaign...then some over flights  of the country , I believe others were much more active in Libya...and while I understand that the country now is a mess and is tribal and feudal...I guess I have no problem with the demise of Gaddafi..I can get kind of blood thirsty at times..want my LB of flesh so to speak and his bombing of cafes in Europe, the destruction of the airliner and other ills , deaths of so many innocents..beyond abuses against his own people......so be it as far as his fate...to me he deserved it and for the familys involved , their getting some payback even though it doesn't bring back loved ones..it was fine with me..{Never said or claimed I am a innocent or a Mother Teresa..}

also I guess I missed it on Syria...didn't think we have been a big player in Syria either { Didn't say not involved at all ..} even though it seems our allies wanted us involved..If we are that involved, seemed Obama did not and doesn't want to be involved here, please enlighten me....

[deziloooooo]

USA and Iran working together against Insurgents...??

The latest from Debka regarding what Obama is considering to help Maliki and Iraq fight back fundamentalist..Al Quida...

debka.com/article/23994/Obama-mulls-sending-Al-Maliki-weapons-to-fight-ISIS-Iranian-Gen-Soleimani-arrives-in-Baghdad

==========================================

Obama mulls sending Al Maliki weapons to fight ISIS. Iranian Gen. Soleimani arrives in Baghdad

" President Barack Obama is close to a decision on a number of US military steps for thwarting the march of Al-Qaeda in Iraq......"

Click on link above to read complete article.....

[Spellbound454]

Hilary Clinton says No to the requests for assistance to Iraq........and she is right.

[deziloooooo]

For most of us...I am including myself..this supposedly new group of fundamentalist extremist..called the ISIL..seems from out of the blue and ..can be confusing..just another " nut job group.."what the he** do they want already"..something new or the same old same old and is there a leader of...and how seriouse are they and should we take them seriously...

Well it seems they are new but yet  have been around a while and there is a individual leader  and according to this article I am going to post it seems they are very seriouse in their wants and intentions..and we should take them seriously..a lot of trouble and problems seem to be coming ...

www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/06/fierce-ambition-isil-baghdadi-2014612142242188464.html

====================================

 

The fierce ambition of ISIL's Baghdadi 
 


Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi has risen from anonymity to become the feared leader of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant.


 ISIL has fought across two countries in its quest for an Islamic state


"As its feared and fearsome leader, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi personifies the brutality, determination and ambition of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant.

No one since Osama bin Laden has held in such reverence among Sunni fighters, scored such stunning and shocking victories, and threatened so much of the established order."

Click on above link to read rest of article
 

[deziloooooo]

Jun 12, 2014 16:34:37 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

Hilary Clinton says No to the requests for assistance to Iraq........and she is right.

I some what agree yet I was also thinking and wondering , after reading the article I just posted the link to about the leader of this ISIL , if possible to identify him...where he is..if a surgical strike such as one that has just been reported in Debka of a Israeli strike removing a specific individual traveling on a motorcycle..another rocket attack just landed in southern Israel..seems this was the perp..also past history..known bad guy...shouldn't be considered...We have been doing this in Afganistan, Sudan, Packistan and it seems to be effective..bad guys are not happy and that is fine with me...

One has to believe that there are bad people working against our interests out there or believe there aren't any to speak of.....I tend to believe there are such out there...so is a preemptive strike ok or not ...or does one just wait till one feels have to act in a large manner with large commitment of troops and assets....just a thought by me....

[billisonboard]

Jun 12, 2014 15:35:18 GMT -5 deminmaine said:

...
I've said this here before, but there was this Vietnam era song called "The Big Muddy"....

yeah, the song nails it, particularly the last verse:

[bobosensei]

The US needs to stay out. This is Iraq's problem, and if anyone thinks that they can split the country into three and that the terrorist or other groups will respect an outside government coming in like daddy and making them play fair they need a reality check. I do think that that a continued presence of coalition forces would have helped, and I honestly thought that was where we were headed for many years if you look at the infrastructure that the military was building there.  As the spouse of someone that has served over 2 years in the middle east and one in South Korea I understand how much it costs the military and the country to be somewhere from decades and decades.  I also don't think we have the money to do that.  We have problems in the US that deserve to be addressed first. 

I can't speak to the quality of the Iraq army, but when DH was in Afghanistan they had a mission to train the Afghan Army.  It was basic training type stuff and he said that they were just as good as US army.  Of course the big cultural difference was that it was not uncommon for the Afghani men to get paid and then go missing for several days or weeks.  I think that was also an issue in Iraq.  I think that is just one of the differences between middle east and western culture, and why imposing our style of military and government will never work for them.  I think the Iraqi army is probably technically capable of handling the issue, but I just don't think they can put the well being of their country over their own personal values and heritage therefore they can never be motivated to be effective.  This was always going to be an issue though no matter when the US pulled out because until the people change the country never will.  We aren't talking about Bahrain, Qatar, UAE, or even Egypt.  There are just some places that need to be left alone.  It just costs us time, money, and lives of our military.

[Virgil Showlion]

Jun 12, 2014 18:06:51 GMT -5 deminmaine said:

I would be surprised if al Baghdadi is not on a hit list.

Seeing how quickly this is developing.... it is truly shocking to see the far superior Iraqi government forces lay down their weapons and just melt away. The rebels now have Humvees, tanks, even helicopters- US issue of course.

They are within 100 miles of Baghdad now.

And no Baghdad Bob to calm the masses this time.

[deziloooooo]

The last thing I want is a POTUS who is all emotional in his thinking...and actions and that is what the Senator is reminding me of...but that's me...

The thing is Malicki did not want any US troops left there ...even a few thousand and I don't see how legally we could have left any with out being wanted...and invited...Seems the same thing is happening in Afganistan with Karzi though in that case Karzi's term is almost over and the two runoff candidates for PM have said they want and will invite US troops to stay...

That what is happening in Iraq is happening so quickly reminds me of the last days of Nam..seems once the dam breaks there is no way to hold back the flood...There are over a million men under arms with the government in Iraq plus $25 billion of training and equipement....but if there is no will to support the government , all the troops and $ spent make little difference...and there it's the present in power government and leadership fault in my opinion...Even now Malacki is taking no responsibility for what is happening ..putting all the blame on others..in fact asking for emergency martial law powers as that is going to stop the damage....NOT ...

That this is a disaster and a mess there is no doubt....but unless the Iraqi people / leadership get together and work out some way of working together I don't see how anything can change....To have a region with finances revert to a 13th century way of life in laws and punishment is hard to believe would happen , especially when there are so many people in the area who don't want to live that life but possible the only ones willing to put out, pay the price ..sacrifice themselves are those who do want that kind of society...

The Sunni who are against Malacki and his side , while not really for this new Al Quida derivative, but thinking better them then who is governing them now are expect things will revert back for them as it was under the Bathest and Saddam , IM opinion are quickly going to find out they backed the wrong horse...as bad as Saddam was this new calipy/government  will be much worse IMHO...

[deziloooooo]

The following article seems to bring all the partys of this conflict into focus...Kurds, Iranan, Turkey and the options of Malaki and his government...all in a neat little package , for those interested..

america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/6/12/rise-of-the-kurds.html

=========================================

Amid Iraq turmoil, Kurds seize Kirkuk – a long disputed prize


Analysis: Kurds are doing what they wanted to do ten years ago: incorporate the city into their semi-autonomous region


June 12, 2014 9:10PM ET

by Jamie Tarabay - @jamietarabay

"While the rest of the world was speculating over a possible foray by the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) into the heart of Baghdad, Iraq’s Kurds moved quickly on Thursday to seize the city of Kirkuk, the crown jewel and potential capital of a future Kurdish independent state.

It was a strategic opportunity too good for the Kurds to pass up, and as ISIL fighters spoke of heading south, rather than east, the Kurds stepped in to protect Kirkuk should ISIL change its mind.

Now with ISIL setting its sights on Baghdad and the Shia-dominated government of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, Iraq’s Kurds are doing what they wanted to do more than ten years ago: reclaim Kirkuk and begin incorporating it into their semi-autonomous region in the north of the country."

To read rest of article click on link above.....

[marvholly]

My late DH had 2 suggestions over the years for dealing w/all the mideast conflicts:

1) Bomb them back to the stone age
2) turn the area into a sheet of glass w/nukes

#2 would be a problem as we NEED the oil but I have to wonder about #1. Nobody there like us anyhow. Wonder how our EU allies would react and if that is really important. I figure 3-5 years down the road they might actually say thanks.

[billisonboard]

Jun 14, 2014 5:53:30 GMT -5 deminmaine said:

LOL marvholly. In my darker moments I tend to agree..

Seriously though, I think France has it right- Walk Softly and carry a big stick (T Roosevelt)

They said in no uncertain times after 911 that if anyone hit them the perp will be nuked. If the rabble takes Iraq and then NYC gets it- Bu Bye Baghdad!

I can see where knowing that they could provoke that reaction would encourage a small group of radicals to attack NYC.

[djAdvocate]

Jun 12, 2014 13:08:44 GMT -5 deminmaine said:

Our news media is owned by the same corporate masters that run the military industrial complex Virgil.  It is really not surprising.

And we are involved in far more bloodshed than that.

The greatest pestilance in the world since WWII has been the United States of America, I'm afraid.

They don't hate us because we support democracy, after all.

the shining city on the mount bulls*&t wears a little thin when you have deployed your army a couple hundred times since WW2.

[b2r]

  Not to worry...

[djAdvocate]

the abject failure of building a "Western Style Democracy" in Iraq is readily apparent.  thus, we hang one final, and very heavy Albatross around the neck of W, as he sinks to Harding level stink.

[djAdvocate]

Jun 14, 2014 10:26:44 GMT -5 b2r said:

  Not to worry...

Obama has his work cut out for him to match Bush's record.  but he still has two years. 

if he re-invades Iraq, he might get there......

[b2r]

Jun 14, 2014 10:27:14 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

the abject failure of building a "Western Style Democracy" in Iraq is readily apparent.  thus, we hang one final, and very heavy Albatross around the neck of W, as he sinks to Harding level stink.

Biden in 2010: Iraq Will Be 'One of the Great Achievements' of This Administration

[b2r]

  Maybe Joe's right...I guess it all depends on what you're trying to achieve!

[Spellbound454]

Wonder how our EU allies would react and if that is really important.

We'll just buy oil of whoever is in power after this.

Seriously Europe will make a noise but it won't actually do anything unless it spills over in to Turkey

Turkey is in NATO so we would have to react.


I see Iran has pledged to support the Shias...No surprises there. Is the US really supposed to ally with Iran?
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-27847498
Lets not forget Hezbollah are Shias too.

Most of the region is Sunni.... The insurgents are Sunni (supported by Saudi)
I reckon they'll fight or we will see the break up Iraq into different regions.

[djAdvocate]

Jun 14, 2014 10:33:22 GMT -5 b2r said:

Jun 14, 2014 10:27:14 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

the abject failure of building a "Western Style Democracy" in Iraq is readily apparent.  thus, we hang one final, and very heavy Albatross around the neck of W, as he sinks to Harding level stink.

Biden in 2010: Iraq Will Be 'One of the Great Achievements' of This Administration

not really seeing why he would take credit for ANY of it.  it was Bush's idea to withdraw.  plans were already in place before Obama came along.  Biden is an ass.

[EVT1]

And the George Bush legacy lives on......... Great fucking plan he had.