Law I was unaware of- could impact self-defense

[EVT1]

Having read a few cases where a homeowner shot someone banging at the front door and claimed self-defense- along comes a new twist.

For context a few months ago young woman fighting with her boyfriend had knocked on several doors late at night wanting someone to call 911.  One neighbor answered and told her to go away as he saw no injuries and was unsure exactly what was going on- to his credit he didn't blast her with a shotgun through the door-but here lies the rub- he was visited by detectives days later and was told he could have been charged for interfering with an emergency call or something to that effect.  Nevermind it was his private property and his phone.

So- the question that popped in my head- when looking at the Detroit case where a man shot a woman through a screen door that was probably needing help- how can this be squared with self-defense? Someone pounding on the door late at night- usually people that do that aren't home invaders or criminals- yet they tend to get shot here and there.

In other words what is going to win out- the fear of the homeowner winding up in a shooting, or the failure of the homeowner to act and make an emergency call?

[mmhmm]

I don't understand why making a call to 911 would be a problem for this man.  I don't have to let the woman in.  I can close and lock the door and call 911.  Why would one refuse?

[EVT1]

I don't know either-but he thought she was full of crap and drunk and told her to go away. 

Like many people would- I guess he didn't want to hear the story and just said get out of my yard. He said there was no fight or obvious injuries or he would have called.

The effed up part she hit my door too- I was in the shower and when I got to the door nobody was there. Looked like a couple drunk kids screwing around in the street to me- they were a few houses down at that point. Cops showed up right after that- hauled the guy off on a domestic.

I had no idea there was any duty for a homeowner to do anything at all.  Reminds me of Seinfeld and the good Samaritan law.  Also remember the NY case where a woman was beaten and the people just watched it happen and did nothing.

My take is call the police- it's their job to figure out what is going on.  If someone looks injured I will go out and help- if not I will at least call.  What I will not do is blast someone with a shotgun through my door

[cme1201]

May 30, 2014 22:02:06 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

I don't understand why making a call to 911 would be a problem for this man.  I don't have to let the woman in.  I can close and lock the door and call 911.  Why would one refuse?

Several reasons.

1. Not my problem

2. Snitches get stitches

3. Not my problem

We have separated ourselves. 50,000 followers on facebook and 0 real life interaction. Message boards for conversation or tweets of 140 characters, we as a people and country are farther apart then we were when all we had was telegraph and mail order supplies.

I work in a section of town where 3 shootings have happened. In total the 3 have resulted in 3 witnesses though cameras show over 65 people standing where one of the men was shot.

[Virgil Showlion]

It might well be a crying wolf thing. If this is in a neighbourhood that sees drug-addled transients wandering from door to door making demands every other week, people's willingness to get involved will obviously have waned.

Also note that making a 911 call isn't a trivial commitment. If my experience is anything to go by, the dispatcher insists on knowing your name and where you live. If you make a call and the person has wandered off by the time police arrive, you need to spend time convincing them that you didn't make the call spuriously. You're often expected to stay on the line and to monitor the situation until police arrive.

In other words, calling 911 isn't a simple make-a-five-minute-call-and-then-go-to-bed affair. Authorities make it very clear that phoning in emergencies is not something to mess around with. At some point people start making judgments about whether the ranting, not-visibly-injured person du jour at the door looks imperiled enough to risk reporting.

[jkapp]

Jun 3, 2014 7:20:42 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

It might well be a crying wolf thing. If this is in a neighbourhood that sees drug-addled transients wandering from door to door making demands every other week, people's willingness to get involved will obviously have waned.

Also note that making a 911 call isn't a trivial commitment. If my experience is anything to go by, the dispatcher insists on knowing your name and where you live. If you make a call and the person has wandered off by the time police arrive, you need to spend time convincing them that you didn't make the call spuriously. You're often expected to stay on the line and to monitor the situation until police arrive.

In other words, calling 911 isn't a simple make-a-five-minute-call-and-then-go-to-bed affair. Authorities make it very clear that phoning in emergencies is not something to mess around with. At some point people start making judgments about whether the ranting, not-visibly-injured person du jour at the door looks imperiled enough to risk reporting.

Exactly...when I first moved into my current neighborhood something like this happened a few blocks away. A woman pounded on doors claiming she was being followed and needed to call the police.  When an older couple let her in to call the police, she went ballistic, beating them and trashing their house.  It turns out she was incredibly high on PCP.

[The Captain]

At our previous house we witnessed an incident in the parking lot of the building behind us and called 911.  Gave them our information.  When the police got there the woman claimed nothing was wrong.  The police then proceeded to go to our house (in front of the guy that was slapping the girl around) and question us as to what we saw.

I was pissed to say the least.  I had a newborn and DH was often away for overnight business trips at the time.  Now I'm ususally one to kick ass first and ask questions later, but I now had DD to consider. 

We had garbage and other stuff tossed in our yard for a few weeks and a new tree vandalized, then it stopped.  Now I'm not sure it was the ass we called the cops on, but the timing was too perfect otherwise.

I was very close to getting a gun in the house after this happened.

[Virgil Showlion]

Jun 3, 2014 7:53:49 GMT -5 jkapp said:

Jun 3, 2014 7:20:42 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

It might well be a crying wolf thing. If this is in a neighbourhood that sees drug-addled transients wandering from door to door making demands every other week, people's willingness to get involved will obviously have waned.

Also note that making a 911 call isn't a trivial commitment. If my experience is anything to go by, the dispatcher insists on knowing your name and where you live. If you make a call and the person has wandered off by the time police arrive, you need to spend time convincing them that you didn't make the call spuriously. You're often expected to stay on the line and to monitor the situation until police arrive.

In other words, calling 911 isn't a simple make-a-five-minute-call-and-then-go-to-bed affair. Authorities make it very clear that phoning in emergencies is not something to mess around with. At some point people start making judgments about whether the ranting, not-visibly-injured person du jour at the door looks imperiled enough to risk reporting.

Exactly...when I first moved into my current neighborhood something like this happened a few blocks away. A woman pounded on doors claiming she was being followed and needed to call the police.  When an older couple let her in to call the police, she went ballistic, beating them and trashing their house.  It turns out she was incredibly high on PCP.

I'd just be worried about whoever it was wandering off before the police arrived.

Personal anecdote time:

I once came across a woman not far from my residence who was huddled in a ball on the sidewalk. She was crying and moaning and totally unresponsive to questioning. She was disheveled, likely homeless. After fruitlessly offering help for several minutes, I left to phone 911 from my house (I didn't have a cell phone with me). The dispatcher wanted to know my name and address right away.

By the time I got back to where the woman had been, she was gone. Eventually the police showed up and I had to give them a lengthy explanation of what I'd seen. They didn't quite give me the stink eye, but they confirmed my identity eight ways to Sunday and made absolutely sure that I knew they knew who I was. As in: you call us again and there's no emergency here, you're going to be paying a fine.

In major cities, we've come a long way from the friendly neighbourhood police officer helping to get Mittens out of the tree. If you phone in an emergency, there'd better be an emergency when they show up.

[EVT1]

This is not a neighborhood with drug addled transients walking around- first time someone has banged on my door- ended up being a young woman that lived down the block that had her boyfriend arrested after someone called.

Just thought it was mighty interesting that you could be charged for not helping- which kind of went to my point in relation to the Detroit shooting- blasting someone through your front door could be considered interfering with an emergency call as well, no?

[mmhmm]

Jun 3, 2014 6:34:44 GMT -5 cme1201 said:

May 30, 2014 22:02:06 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

I don't understand why making a call to 911 would be a problem for this man.  I don't have to let the woman in.  I can close and lock the door and call 911.  Why would one refuse?

Several reasons.

1. Not my problem

2. Snitches get stitches

3. Not my problem

We have separated ourselves. 50,000 followers on facebook and 0 real life interaction. Message boards for conversation or tweets of 140 characters, we as a people and country are farther apart then we were when all we had was telegraph and mail order supplies.

I work in a section of town where 3 shootings have happened. In total the 3 have resulted in 3 witnesses though cameras show over 65 people standing where one of the men was shot.

Perhaps it's a generational thing.  I don't know.  I haven't separated myself from the rest of the human race.  As I said, I don't have to allow a stranger into my home, but I can sure make a telephone call for someone who needs help and I'm not going to stand around watching someone shot and have nothing to say.  I just couldn't do that.

[Tennesseer]

Jun 3, 2014 8:42:26 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Jun 3, 2014 6:34:44 GMT -5 cme1201 said:

Several reasons.

1. Not my problem

2. Snitches get stitches

3. Not my problem

We have separated ourselves. 50,000 followers on facebook and 0 real life interaction. Message boards for conversation or tweets of 140 characters, we as a people and country are farther apart then we were when all we had was telegraph and mail order supplies.

I work in a section of town where 3 shootings have happened. In total the 3 have resulted in 3 witnesses though cameras show over 65 people standing where one of the men was shot.

Perhaps it's a generational thing.  I don't know.  I haven't separated myself from the rest of the human race.  As I said, I don't have to allow a stranger into my home, but I can sure make a telephone call for someone who needs help and I'm not going to stand around watching someone shot and have nothing to say.  I just couldn't do that.

Been there.  Done that.

[cme1201]

Jun 3, 2014 8:42:26 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Jun 3, 2014 6:34:44 GMT -5 cme1201 said:

Several reasons.

1. Not my problem

2. Snitches get stitches

3. Not my problem

We have separated ourselves. 50,000 followers on facebook and 0 real life interaction. Message boards for conversation or tweets of 140 characters, we as a people and country are farther apart then we were when all we had was telegraph and mail order supplies.

I work in a section of town where 3 shootings have happened. In total the 3 have resulted in 3 witnesses though cameras show over 65 people standing where one of the men was shot.

Perhaps it's a generational thing.  I don't know.  I haven't separated myself from the rest of the human race.  As I said, I don't have to allow a stranger into my home, but I can sure make a telephone call for someone who needs help and I'm not going to stand around watching someone shot and have nothing to say.  I just couldn't do that.

I believe that it is just that.

When we were younger we interacted in "mostly" positive ways. As EVT likes to harp "back in my day" fistfights led to bloody noses and bruised egos. Now it leads to drive-bys and gang interaction, now a days you are never fighting one person but, that person and any friends who may be around. The pack mentality has firmly taken root in this younger generation. Retaliation for perceived slights is on the rise and individuals who have a civic duty mind set find themselves harassed not only by those involved but, also by the people in the community for bringing the "law" into their daily lives.

This is all anecdotal, based on observation and commentary from local police forces in the surrounding counties.

[EVT1]

;DThrew a lot of punches in my day- had my ass kicked a few times as well- never even thought of grabbing a gun. 

But if you think kicking someone's ass might bring some gang retaliation, what do you think shooting one of them is going to bring?  There is no good answer- so maybe not getting involved is a good plan.  I know I'm not- I would make a call or help someone injured- that's about it.

[truthbound]

Jun 3, 2014 6:34:44 GMT -5 cme1201 said:

May 30, 2014 22:02:06 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

I don't understand why making a call to 911 would be a problem for this man.  I don't have to let the woman in.  I can close and lock the door and call 911.  Why would one refuse?

Several reasons.

1. Not my problem

2. Snitches get stitches

3. Not my problem

We have separated ourselves. 50,000 followers on facebook and 0 real life interaction. Message boards for conversation or tweets of 140 characters, we as a people and country are farther apart then we were when all we had was telegraph and mail order supplies.

I work in a section of town where 3 shootings have happened. In total the 3 have resulted in 3 witnesses though cameras show over 65 people standing where one of the men was shot.

And all of them were watching through their iPhones uploading Youtube videos.

[greeniis10]

If someone was banging on my front door and yelling for help I'd probably call 911 but NOT let the person even know I was home.  I wouldn't show myself or acknowledge them.  Recently we've had a couple of cases of home-intrusions where this was the exact ploy to get the homeowner to open the door: a "helpless" female begging for help.

It's a tough call because I've also had personal experience with officers responding to a 911 call that was no longer an emergency when they arrived and they weren't happy.  Guess it would be a case-by-case thing for me.  Interesting topic and responses, though.