lynnerself
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Post by lynnerself on Apr 18, 2014 10:20:04 GMT -5
It's not clear who is posting these letters www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/who-behind-letters-ordering-jews-east-ukraine-register-n83926..... It was not clear who was behind the leaflets .....The letters were purported to be the work of a pro-Russian group that took over public buildings and wants to end rule by the new Ukrainian government in Kiev.
Kirill Rudenko, a spokesman for the pro-Russian People's Republic of Donbass, told Reuters the leaflet was "complete rubbish" and "we made no such demands on Jews." |
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 18, 2014 10:28:37 GMT -5
OMG DJ, are you freaking kidding me?!? After we just talked about this like two nights ago, you still think....... talked about what?Putin hopes diplomacy would resolve Ukraine conflict, doesn’t rule out sending in troopsTHIS IS A TEXTBOOK CASE OF APPEASEMENT. This is the West giving Eastern Ukraine to Russia!!! Don't even bother arguing with me as I won't even waist my time responding.... Just enjoy your bubble while it lasts, bro... Wow  um....no, it really isn't. pulling our bases out of Saudi Arabia was appeasement to Osama Bin Laden. it was something he specifically asked for, and we gave him. he must have been laughing his ass off. but nobody, and i mean NOBODY on the right even MENTIONS it. our REAL Chamberlain is busy painting kitch art of people who he "sees into the soul" of. curse his mortal soul:  |
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 18, 2014 10:29:36 GMT -5
Ouch! Didn’t we just go thru this a bit over 40 years ago? Have we not learned anything? This history repeating itself is downright scary. This is especially reprehensible in the middle of Pesach. I do NOT see this as being China's war. They have NO interests in that region BUT US & EU do as they did just before WWII. we were in VietNam 40 years ago. or just leaving, as the case may be. edit: and no, we clearly didn't learn a damn thing from that experience. |
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 18, 2014 10:31:34 GMT -5
You guys are broke. Enjoy sitting back on the sidelines along with the rest of the world, doing what a broke nation does. Watching. we won't watch, unfortunately. that is because we think we are saviors of the universe. i am sick of it. |
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Apr 18, 2014 10:35:08 GMT -5
You guys are broke. Enjoy sitting back on the sidelines along with the rest of the world, doing what a broke nation does. Watching. we won't watch, unfortunately. that is because we think we are saviors of the universe. i am sick of it. Or the punishers of the universe, depending upon on which side of the universe we have our heel planted. |
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 18, 2014 10:39:15 GMT -5
Ouch! Didn’t we just go thru this a bit over 40 years ago? Have we not learned anything? This history repeating itself is downright scary. This is especially reprehensible in the middle of Pesach. I do NOT see this as being China's war. They have NO interests in that region BUT US & EU do as they did just before WWII. China has MASSIVE interest in the region. Russia and China have already engaged in a short war in the past. I agree that the similarities between Putin and Hitlers playbook are stark, and I wouldn't listen to anyone trying to tell you otherwise.. question: why should we bother discussing this with you, Aham, if you are unwilling to accept any challenges to your perspective? |
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Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger
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Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Apr 18, 2014 12:24:58 GMT -5
I'm not unwilling, at all dj, and people always oppose my perspective. You are more than welcome to post on my threads in the investing perspectives area.(make sure you read the latest post on the Russian Elections, trouble in paradise thread)
We have had lots of discussions on MT over the past couple months where I have had no problem with people arguing that this "situation" is just going to go away because Putin is weak. I've posted links to the threads, which you have apparently read, so jump in!
In fact dj, you proved my point with your textbook example of appeasemnet. The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language defines appeasement as; "2. The policy of granting concessions to potential enemies to maintain peace."
What where we talking about the other night? Our inevitable path. As in, every time we try to appease our enemies what happens? But hey your perspective is that fate doesn't exist and, you know who, could care less about human lives.. What I call our situation, dj is an ideological stalemate. I guess we see what happens as we appease the "not back by Putin" pro-Russian separatists in Eastern Ukraine, eh?
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 19, 2014 11:30:37 GMT -5
I'm not unwilling, at all dj, and people always oppose my perspective. You are more than welcome to post on my threads in the investing perspectives area.(make sure you read the latest post on the Russian Elections, trouble in paradise thread) We have had lots of discussions on MT over the past couple months where I have had no problem with people arguing that this "situation" is just going to go away because Putin is weak. I've posted links to the threads, which you have apparently read, so jump in! In fact dj, you proved my point with your textbook example of appeasemnet. The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language defines appeasement as; "2. The policy of granting concessions to potential enemies to maintain peace." What where we talking about the other night? Our inevitable path. As in, every time we try to appease our enemies what happens? But hey your perspective is that fate doesn't exist and, you know who, could care less about human lives.. What I call our situation, dj is an ideological stalemate. I guess we see what happens as we appease the "not back by Putin" pro-Russian separatists in Eastern Ukraine, eh? what concessions have we made to Putin, Aham? |
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Apr 19, 2014 13:22:36 GMT -5
Ukraine isn't an ally. If the situation escalates hopefully we're smart enough to stay out of it.
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Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger
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Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Apr 19, 2014 16:04:13 GMT -5
I'm not unwilling, at all dj, and people always oppose my perspective. You are more than welcome to post on my threads in the investing perspectives area.(make sure you read the latest post on the Russian Elections, trouble in paradise thread) We have had lots of discussions on MT over the past couple months where I have had no problem with people arguing that this "situation" is just going to go away because Putin is weak. I've posted links to the threads, which you have apparently read, so jump in! In fact dj, you proved my point with your textbook example of appeasemnet. The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language defines appeasement as; "2. The policy of granting concessions to potential enemies to maintain peace." What where we talking about the other night? Our inevitable path. As in, every time we try to appease our enemies what happens? But hey your perspective is that fate doesn't exist and, you know who, could care less about human lives.. What I call our situation, dj is an ideological stalemate. I guess we see what happens as we appease the "not back by Putin" pro-Russian separatists in Eastern Ukraine, eh? what concessions have we made to Putin, Aham? Now the international community has made a "deal" with him about all of Eastern Ukraine, which isn't really working.. There is also this; -Crimea crisis: Merkel warns Russia faces escalating sanctions-Report: senior EU official opposes cutting back on Russian gas soon but sees need to diversifyI also thought this was very interesting, notice how he uses the term Sudetenland? -Estonia’s Cassandra finally gets message across on Russia |
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 21, 2014 18:42:41 GMT -5
none of that seems very concessionary to me. it seems like a pretty typical strategy for major players. in other words, it seems like everyone is doing everything they can short of nuking Russia.
if you disagree, what am i missing?
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Post by lazysundays on Apr 21, 2014 18:44:21 GMT -5
This turned out to be a hoax. Thank goodness.
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Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger
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Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Apr 21, 2014 22:23:05 GMT -5
none of that seems very concessionary to me. it seems like a pretty typical strategy for major players. in other words, it seems like everyone is doing everything they can short of nuking Russia. if you disagree, what am i missing? You are missing the concession that have been made. You are missing what the President of Estonia is saying.. Believe whatever you want dj, you are free to do so.  |
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 21, 2014 22:49:26 GMT -5
none of that seems very concessionary to me. it seems like a pretty typical strategy for major players. in other words, it seems like everyone is doing everything they can short of nuking Russia. if you disagree, what am i missing? You are missing the concession that have been made. You are missing what the President of Estonia is saying.. Believe whatever you want dj, you are free to do so. This? In an interview with CNN's Christiane Amanpour on Tuesday, Estonian President Toomas Hendrik Ilves called for a "physical presence on the ground" in the region as a deterrence against Russia. amanpour.blogs.cnn.com/2014/04/15/estonian-president-toomas-hendrik-ilves-calls-for-physical-presence-on-the-ground-in-region-as-deterrence-against-russia/ I can't find how many Estonian troops he is sending? |
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Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Apr 21, 2014 23:49:45 GMT -5
No, this.... Search this title if you don't pay for ft, you should be able to read the artcle...Estonia’s Cassandra finally gets message across on Russia |
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 22, 2014 0:11:12 GMT -5
No, this.... Search this title if you don't pay for ft, you should be able to read the artcle...Estonia’s Cassandra finally gets message across on Russia i read the article. it doesn't mention the US. let me try again: i wasn't asking how others have appeased Russia. i was asking how we have. so...how have we appeased Russia? |
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 22, 2014 0:12:11 GMT -5
none of that seems very concessionary to me. it seems like a pretty typical strategy for major players. in other words, it seems like everyone is doing everything they can short of nuking Russia. if you disagree, what am i missing? You are missing the concession that have been made. You are missing what the President of Estonia is saying.. Believe whatever you want dj, you are free to do so. ad hominem. i think you can do better than that. |
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Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger
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Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Apr 22, 2014 0:17:04 GMT -5
Easy, we "warned" Putin that we would stop him from annexing Crimea, he laughed off the sanctions and we did nothing to remove the Russian troops(which even Putin now admits there were Russian troops in Crimea).... We "warned" him from trying to take more of Eastern Ukraine... Then we made a deal with him on Eastern Ukraine after "not Russian" militant groups took over 10 cities and towns...
The President of Estonia has been telling people for years that this could and would most likely happen.. He even referred to Sudetenland with his "I told ya so speech"... Concessions have been made to a avert war... That is appeasement in the political sense, straight from the dictionary... As an aside, I think Putin has screwed himself royally...
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 22, 2014 0:20:23 GMT -5
Easy, we "warned" Putin that we would stop him from annexing Crimea, he laughed off the sanctions and we did nothing to remove the Russian troops(which even Putin now admits there were Russian troops in Crimea).... We "warned" him from trying to take more of Eastern Ukraine... Then we made a deal with him on Eastern Ukraine after "not Russian" militant groups took over 10 cities and towns... appeasement and concessions would mean that Putin got something out of all that. what did he get, other than a laugh?The President of Estonia has been telling people for years that this could and would most likely happen.. He even referred to Sudetenland with his "I told ya so speech"... Concessions have been made to a avert war... That is appeasement in the political sense, straight from the dictionary... As an aside, I think Putin has screwed himself royally... i think appeasement means to "concede to a demand". what demand did we concede to? |
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Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Apr 22, 2014 0:21:17 GMT -5
No, this.... Search this title if you don't pay for ft, you should be able to read the artcle...Estonia’s Cassandra finally gets message across on Russia i read the article. it doesn't mention the US. let me try again: i wasn't asking how others have appeased Russia. i was asking how we have. so...how have we appeased Russia? Did you read the NYT article from early March? The one where Kerry was warning Putin about annexing Crimea? For the record, it was also an international effort in Hitler's appeasement as well. Not just the US. I think I have stated a few times he's laughing at us(the west) Not just the USA, sorry if that where the confusion is coming in. |
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Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Apr 22, 2014 0:24:23 GMT -5
Easy, we "warned" Putin that we would stop him from annexing Crimea, he laughed off the sanctions and we did nothing to remove the Russian troops(which even Putin now admits there were Russian troops in Crimea).... We "warned" him from trying to take more of Eastern Ukraine... Then we made a deal with him on Eastern Ukraine after "not Russian" militant groups took over 10 cities and towns... appeasement and concessions would mean that Putin got something out of all that. what did he get, other than a laugh?The President of Estonia has been telling people for years that this could and would most likely happen.. He even referred to Sudetenland with his "I told ya so speech"... Concessions have been made to a avert war... That is appeasement in the political sense, straight from the dictionary... As an aside, I think Putin has screwed himself royally... i think appeasement means to "concede to a demand". what demand did we concede to? Crimea, further intrusion into Eastern Ukraine. Continued oil and gas revenues.... Going to be the same answer every time you ask it. See it how you will, I'm going to listen to the Prez of Estonia as he is front and center and has been right the whole time. |
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 22, 2014 0:33:50 GMT -5
i read the article. it doesn't mention the US. let me try again: i wasn't asking how others have appeased Russia. i was asking how we have. so...how have we appeased Russia? Did you read the NYT article from early March? The one where Kerry was warning Putin about annexing Crimea? that is not appeasement. appeasement would be if Putin said "let us have Crimea, and we will leave the rest of Ukraine alone", and we just backed down. we didn't do that, tho.For the record, it was also an international effort in Hitler's appeasement as well. Not just the US. I think I have stated a few times he's laughing at us(the west) Not just the USA, sorry if that where the confusion is coming in. that's fine. you could say he was laughing at us. i don't honestly care about that. some people, and some countries, are so full of themselves that they cant take being laughed at. i would hope that we are bigger than that. what concerns me more is Putin's very real and very provocative actions. but i don't see us as appeasing him, and neither did the FT article. it did, however, inferr that Spain and Italy were doing so. |
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 22, 2014 0:37:23 GMT -5
i think appeasement means to "concede to a demand". what demand did we concede to? Crimea, further intrusion into Eastern Ukraine. Continued oil and gas revenues.... i am sorry. one of us doesn't understand the meaning of the term appeasement. in order for any of those things on your list to qualify as appeasement, Putin would have to have demanded them, and the US would have to have given into that demand. Putin may have demanded that stuff, but we were in no position to give them, so those are not appeasement. if you say "i am going to steal your wallet", and then you point a gun in my face and take it, that is NOT appeasing you. that is you being a criminal, having no regard for my safety or your own, and doing what you want. |
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Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Apr 22, 2014 0:44:19 GMT -5
He demanded that the people in Crimea have a referendum. We kept saying this was out of the question, then we backed off after it happens. We kept saying stay out of Ukraine, he didn't, we backed off and made a Geneva deal. We have been threatning these "sanctions" but the EU is still paying Russia for 90% of their gas supplies...You do realize that German troops marched into these countries in the late 1930's right? They held a gun at us as well, dj.
Yeah, its very unsettling what he's doing. I agree with you there.
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 22, 2014 1:46:43 GMT -5
He demanded that the people in Crimea have a referendum. We kept saying this was out of the question, this is the OPPOSITE of appeasement. this is US making a demand on him.then we backed off after it happens. We kept saying stay out of Ukraine, he didn't, we backed off and made a Geneva deal. ditto for this. again, it is the OPPOSITE of appeasement to make a demand of someone. if they choose NOT to do it, it is not appeasement on the demanding parties part. besides, we were in no position to stop him, and he knew it- so it was STUPID for us to make the demand in the first place, imo.We have been threatning these "sanctions" but the EU is still paying Russia for 90% of their gas supplies... and again, we DEMAND all sorts of stuff. it is stupid to make demands based on stuff we can't control. and it would be APPEASING for Putin to comply with them. he doesn't strike me as an appeaser.You do realize that German troops marched into these countries in the late 1930's right? They held a gun at us as well, dj. not really. they were in no position to hold a gun to us. but again, it is not appeasement to be forced to do something (or do nothing, in this case) against your will. it is a criminal act on the part of the wrongdoer.Yeah, its very unsettling what he's doing. I agree with you there. yes. but it is not appeasement. we disagree there. when a cop pulls a gun and tells a guy to freeze, and he flees and evades arrest, or he pulls a gun and shoots the cop, NEITHER of those are appeasement on the part of the cop. in this situation, we are the cop, and Putin in the thug. |
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 22, 2014 1:55:45 GMT -5
i think there is a lot of misuse of the term "appeasement" and "concession" since 911. it is not appeasement to make no demands whatsoever of someone. it is not appeasement to make a demand and not follow through with it. appeasement is what happened during the "War On Terror" when Osama specifically demanded that we remove our bases from SA, and we quietly did so. this sort of appeasement is precisely why terrorists keep doing what they do.
it is not appeasement to say "i am going to kick your ass", and then not do it. there are a lot of names for that: making threats that you can't carry out, lying, all hat no cattle, etc. appeasement would be if PUTIN said "i am going to kick your ass", and we said "what if we gave you Iraq? would you then NOT kick our ass"? and Putin said "sure", then kicked our ass anyway. he gets Iraq, AND an he gets to kick our ass in that scenario. this is the Chamberlain mistake. and again, i am not following....AT ALL.. how we have made THAT mistake here.
this idea that not intervening militarily, or negotiating for peace, or any other number of time tested means of diplomatically solving crises to prevent war is "appeasement" or shows weakness is the kind of thinking that has to STOP, imo. negotiating a truce that has very definite terms for default of the truce is way better than acting on a whim when someone buzzes your ship.
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Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Apr 22, 2014 2:57:39 GMT -5
I think you have your facts backwords dj, we didn't demand a thing from Putin off the start. HE demanded that Crimea has a referendum. We made a bunch of empty threats because we didnt want to use force to stop him. Appeasement. After HE invaded the rest of Eastern Ukraine, we made a Geneva accord to hault the violence because we didn't want to use military force to stop him. Appeasement. He wants his cash for oil and gas the EU has now balked at this, which goes right back to the threats we made off the start being even more hollow, and since we don't want to use force.. Appeasement.
I think this idea that diplomacy has ever worked with our enemies is NUTS, there are basically no examples of long lasting diplomatic solutions.(you outlined a perfect example as to why it's nuts with you mid east example) In fact, the only long lasting diplomat act that I can think of off the top of my head, is the deal we worked out after the war of 1812.
The fact you think Germany wasn't holding a gun at the international community in the 1930's tells me something.
Also, re read the article about Estonia's prez, it wasn't until after they annexed Crimea that ppl started to listen. Since you still seem to think there is a diplomatic way out of this, I would say you are in the camp of people still in denial.
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Post by truthbound on Apr 22, 2014 4:45:27 GMT -5
Very unfortunate. Time for Putin to step up to the plate and stop this nonsense. Ummm.. who do you think is behind all of this?  No one will ever know. It is just a bunch of leaflets. |
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 22, 2014 8:19:27 GMT -5
I just find it hard to believe that after centuries of peaceful coexistence and mutual respect for national boundaries that Europe is engaging in this type of behavior. Hey, maybe if we march off to fight in Europe, it would be a war to end all wars. |
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Post by lazysundays on Apr 22, 2014 8:23:04 GMT -5
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