Advice from the Mechanically Inclined

[Deleted]

Backstory:

Car was 1/2 way to town and I stopped at gas station. Heard metallic "thwank" sound when I re-started car, but couldn't find any problem. I chalked it up to having driven over something in the parking lot.

Drove car to town and started smelling a bit of burning anti-freeze but did not overheat.

Drove back to gas station 1/2 way, stopped and picked up son and no overheating but warm on gauge.

Nearly home and there is a hill to climb.  Climbed the hill and my car hit "hot."  Turned off, turned on heater on high and made it home without overheating/cloud of steam, etc... heater vent heat was hot.

Thought the thermostat might be the problem.  Pulled and replaced it (correctly). Ran car and it heated up after about 2 miles to too high.  Turned on the heater and discovered only cold air inside car.  Also noticed radiator fan wasn't coming on.

Bought a new fan and installed it. Bled air out of the cooling system last night as well.

Car still overheats but now the fan works!

Question is: If the car is running and both heater hoses are hot that means the water pump is working correctly?

And, is it possible that my impeller in the pump went bad but it is not leaking any anit-freeze? Would that make an audible noise?

I don't think the head is cracked or the gasket leaking.  I don't have any issues with mix of liquids.  I have no steam coming out of the tailpipe.  I have no gunk in the oil.  I know I can have it pressure tested to check for sure, but I am not there yet if I can still work on the car myself.  (aka no cash.) 

[Blonde Granny]

Oh my goodness, I can change a tire, after that it's off to the dealer I go!

[Deleted]

BG - LOL. 

I always tell my kids you typically have more of one thing - cash or time.

Since I have a lot of time, and the ability to fix most things around the house, and little cash, I am trying auto repair...

Funny, the thermostat said it was "easy" to do.  Except on my car, apparently.  It was like a 4 hour, cut the hands, project because there was so much other crap in the way of the part.

Trust me, if I had the cash I would tow it in to the repair shop and have it worked on.

[Deleted]

Boskone, thanks for replying.  I think I need a message board with more blue collar folk for this one.  LOL

I can't find a pressure tester so I am going to borrow one.

I have movement of fluid.

Both radiator hoses are hot.

I have bled the system till it just pees out fluid and no air.  Just did this again, just in case.

The temp goes up to hot still and the heater is still blowing cold air.

Is it possible my pump isn't working but isn't leaking?  But, would that cause the heater to be cold?  I thought that was more of a heater core type thing?

This car is a 96 Olds, but it had a motor and radiator and all that fun stuff replaced about 30K miles ago. The coolant looks clean and was very full when this adventure started, so I don't really think my rad is clogged or I am leaking fluid.

I have ZERO leaking that I can find anywhere.  Put cardboard under it overnight, nothing. Run it, and I see nothing.  (I hear I can buy a phosphorescent additive that I can use a black light with, but seriously I don't think there is a leak.  Or if there is, maybe into the engine where I can't find it.

[Apple]

All I know is that when my heater quit working and car started to overheat it was the water pump. The gear that was pressed onto the shaft had slipped down.

[Works4me]

I too am mechanically inclined and will work on almost anything - 2 suggestions: motor manual and google.

One other thought - had a car with intermittent overheating problems for years that no one could ever diagnose - turned out to be the wrong radiator cap - maybe double check the condition of the seals on yours as well as replacement?

Good job on not frying the engine and kudos to you for your continued efforts!

ETA - radiator in good shape?

        Also, check Click and Clack column archives - my father swore by them.

[midjd]

Shasta, I can barely operate a screwdriver, but I emailed the OP to my husband - he might have some answers.

ETA - what kind of car do you have? It's a Crown Vic or something similar, right?

[Deleted]

I have a 96 Olds Cutlass Ciera.

I am going to pull the water pump and look at it today.

[Bob Ross]

You may already know this but...

Your coolant surge tank should be partially full.  There should be some fill lines on it to tell you how full.  If it's too low, fill it to the proper level and drive for a few days.  If the level drops noticeably, then you have a leak somewhere.

There should be a trickle of coolant back into the surge tank while the engine is running.  If not, you're not getting correct flow, and something is blocked.  The purge line is a likely culprit on some GM engines.

The coolant should not have any murky whiteness to it.  That would be a sign of oil getting in the coolant which is indicative of head gasket failure.  Alternatively, you can buy a block test kit like to one in the link below which tests for exhaust gasses in your coolant system (best method), the presence of which would indicate head gasket failure.

www.sjdiscounttools.com/lis75500.html

Does your Olds have a Northstar engine?  These were mostly used by Cadillac, but also used in some Buicks and Olds (Aurora and Intrigue).  The early versions of those are notorious for overheating and head gasket failures.

I'd join a forum specifically for your car (GM / Olds) and ask around there.  You'll probably get better answers.

[Deleted]

No, I have a 3.1L

The water pump is flowing.  I can hear it with the long screwdriver.

My overflow is properly filled and the coolant is flowing into it when the motor gets hot, like it is supposed to.

I think maybe some sort of temp sensor or some exhaust "flapper" thing my step-father thinks might be stuck...

Yes, I did find the Olds forum and they are being helpful as well. 

I know it isn't my:

thermostat
radiator
air lock
water pump

Just not sure what else causes overheating but cold heater air.  Heater core maybe?

[MarleyKeezy78]

I had a cracked head gasket on my first car and it would over heat and smoke, it was pretty bad  I don't know much about cars though.

[973beachbum]

DH says the uppr radiotator hose is almost gauranteed to be your problem.

The upper radiator hose has two linings.   the internal lining can collapse.  You can't tell by feel but you are not getting proper flow to get the coolant through the system and as it gets hot it becomes pliant and soft and collapses.

The only thing it could be is the water pump.  The water pump, if bad, will leak if cold.  He said the easiest test for the water pump and cheap test, is to put a piece of cardboard under the engine for the night.  If it is bad the card board will have a wet spot from the leaking water pump.

And DH says he sin't blue collar he is a red neck and comes from a long line of red necks.

[Deleted]

973 - old rednecks.  LOL 

I had a neighbor come look at my car last night who rebuilds cars for "fun" with his son. 

He said I am not getting good flow in the coolant system but thinks my water pump is the problem.  It is either that or my radiator has a clog.

I am pulling the water pump and ordered a new one.  (They are only  $25).  I am going to put that in and see if it solves the problem.  If not, I am going to put in a new radiator.

My hoses are all fairly newish, as is much of my under-the-hood stuff. 

This car was apparently owned by a young woman. Her dad bought it for her.  She decided on the spur of the moment to move to Vegas.  He said he had just bought her the car and 6 hours from here she blew the motor and cracked the head.

He drove down and towed it home for her.  He put in a motor and everything likely to go wrong, and then his daughter went out and bought a new car and told him she didn't want the old one.  (Bad YMer)

We paid $1400 for the car and he gave us over $2k in recent receipts for parts and stuff he had done to the car.  I thought about it yesterday and I have had this car for about 7 years.  We have done nothing but oil changes, tires and I think once we did breaks.  Bestest car ever!  (Minus my current issue.)

[973beachbum]

Apr 11, 2014 11:10:36 GMT -5 @atsahsreborn said:

973 - old rednecks.  LOL 

I had a neighbor come look at my car last night who rebuilds cars for "fun" with his son. 

He said I am not getting good flow in the coolant system but thinks my water pump is the problem.  It is either that or my radiator has a clog.

I am pulling the water pump and ordered a new one.  (They are only  $25).  I am going to put that in and see if it solves the problem.  If not, I am going to put in a new radiator.

My hoses are all fairly newish, as is much of my under-the-hood stuff. 

This car was apparently owned by a young woman. Her dad bought it for her.  She decided on the spur of the moment to move to Vegas.  He said he had just bought her the car and 6 hours from here she blew the motor and cracked the head.

He drove down and towed it home for her.  He put in a motor and everything likely to go wrong, and then his daughter went out and bought a new car and told him she didn't want the old one.  (Bad YMer)

We paid $1400 for the car and he gave us over $2k in recent receipts for parts and stuff he had done to the car.  I thought about it yesterday and I have had this car for about 7 years.  We have done nothing but oil changes, tires and I think once we did breaks.  Bestest car ever!  (Minus my current issue.)

He said his gut says it is the hose but there is is a cheap and easy test for the radiator hose also. Take the hose off the car and run water through it. Watch it and turn the water temp up to as hot as you can get it. As the water gets hotter watch to see if the flow decreases. If it does decrease as the hose heats up you have your answer. The inner lining is screwed and the hose needs to be replaced. He said this is a VERY common thing.  Personally I would do these tests first before paying anything to replace things as I hate spending any money I don't have to.

BTW DH's Dad was a master mechanic for GM for 30 years. DH's first job was helping his Dad fix old cars for people.

[tskeeter]

Shasta, the metalic thwank you heard makes me think it's not a radiator hose.  A hose problem would be silent.

I vote for a water pump problem.  You heard a noise.  That would be consistent with the impeller coming off/breaking.  When you listen to the water pump, you'd still hear the noise of the water pump turning, even though it isn't pushing any coolant.  And the fact that you're running hot after just a couple of miles tells me there isn't enough coolant movement.  On my cars, it takes a couple of miles for the coolant to warm up enough to open the thermostat and allow coolant to circulate through the heater core.  To be over heating in the same distance indicates you have minimal circulation through the radiator.  I suspect that the reason that both radiator hoses get warm to the touch is that there is enough natural convection to warm up the hoses.  But not enough coolant movement to keep the car from over heating.

If the water pump isn't the problem, I'd probably go looking for an obstruction to the coolant flow.  A collapsing hose is a real possibility if the hoses are more than two or three years old.  But, I'd also check for stray metal at the radiator inlet and outlet, the block inlet and outlet, the thermostat housing, and the water pump, to make sure that something wasn't obstructing the colant flow.  A plugged radiator is unlikely.  Even if some of the passages are plugged, coolant should be getting through other passages.  A radiator becoming plugged is usually a gradual process, so it is unlikely that you'd go from OK to overheating in just a few miles .

If a leaking head gasket was allowing coolant to get into the cylinders, you'd see a white cloud of steam behind you when you step on the gas.  If you have coolant leaking into the crank case or transmission, your oil or transmission fluid levels would be high and the fluid would look milky.  Since you ahven't talked about the coolant level dropping, I don't think you have a large leak that is letting the coolant go somewhere that it shouldn't go, and causing the car to over heat.    

[Deleted]

I am not losing any coolant.  None. 

The engine oil is clear and no milkshake.  (Had a car with that problem before and I wasn't thinking this was the same. Back then the car had real signs and this car is actually running great and having no real issues like I had before with a blown gasket.) Glad this isn't the problem!

I had the hoses off when I did the thermostat and they look good. They were new when the engine was put in the car. They don't show any signs of being worn nor have a single piece of gunk that I could see.

We are all thinking impeller. The upper hose just doesn't get any pressure in it when the car is hot and the overflow isn't getting coolant from the radiator. I can hear flow, and we can see some, but I don't have enough to keep the motor cooled.

I have everything off but the pump itself, so next time I decide to fight with bolts then we might know more. 

I find this car stuff both interesting and frustrating.  I know how to troubleshoot but don't know enough about motors to know all the different factors.  My help last night was great because he showed me and explained what/why he thought was wrong and so I know now how the hoses are supposed to feel, etc...  I mean, how the heck would I know what "good flow" feels like in a radiator hose.   

The good news is when this is done I know my coolant system is nearly all new!    If my kid gets his license and then wrecks this car I am going to cry.... 

[973beachbum]

We are all thinking impeller. The upper hose just doesn't get any pressure in it when the car is hot and the overflow isn't getting coolant from the radiator. I can hear flow, and we can see some, but I don't have enough to keep the motor cooled.

Shasta you just described what DH said in different words.  That is the hose itself that is causing the restriction in flow when the car is hot.  The hose has two parts and the inner lining can be collapsing without showing from the outside.  When the engine gets hot the inside lining will collapse restricting flow.   The only way to fix it is to replace the hose.   It doesn't matter how new the outside part of the hose looks.  If the inside is toast the hose needs to be replaced.

I will say this is a VERY COMMON thing.