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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2011 7:39:36 GMT -5
I like the voucher system too. Schools would have to compete for "business". That's good for everyone. I've wished for this for years. I also wanted to bring up a point about money- in the case in Ohio, where the mother was briefly jailed for sending her kids to the school in her father's district even though she lived elsewhere, the district with the poor scores, where she didn't want her kids, actually had higher per-pupil costs than her father's school district. (They resorted to jail after she repeatedly refused to pay tuition or get her kids out of the school.) Everyone talks as if money is the only thing that makes a difference between a good and a poor school district. That's certainly what they try to tell you when the tax levies come up. It's more complicated than that. Taking money from the "good" districts and throwing it at the struggling ones is not the answer.
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Feb 25, 2011 8:45:46 GMT -5
Wow! Memories! I grew up in a large city during the era when they experimented with bussing inner-city kids to the good schools, and bussing kids from the "good" neighborhoods to an inner city school. My class was the first to be bussed to an "inner-city" school for one year. (Don't think the neighborhood parents didn't raise h*ll over that?!?) Anyway, it was an interesting year as far as learning about different cultures, disruptive students, but unfortunately due to problem kids I don't think I learned a thing that year. I remember all the kids on my bus cheering as the bus pulled away from the school on the last day. The next year we were "allowed" to go back to our neighborhood school. The one lesson I did learn from the experience is never buy a house in a place where you wouldn't want your kids to go to school. We've always checked out the local school district before buying a house.
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Feb 25, 2011 8:48:17 GMT -5
By the way, our state now has open enrollment. You may send your children to the school of your choice, but must make your decision by the January before the school year begins. So, if you have concerns about your neighborhood school, you do have options here.
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Feb 25, 2011 8:54:27 GMT -5
Oh, and I should add that violence against white students by non-white students was a problem during that one year "experiment" with bussing.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 25, 2011 9:09:08 GMT -5
I've been reading the posts and am starting to re-think my position. Your friends bought a house in a bad area because they got on the "buy a house bandwagon." Even when I bought my first house and had no kids which was in 1977, I bought in a good school district because of resale alone. DF and I are doing the same in Grand Rapids. We don't have school aged children that will ever use the system but we will want to sell the house someday and that is a selling feature. Good schools equal good areas and there's a price to pay for that. Your friends chose poorly and now their children will pay the price.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 25, 2011 9:31:28 GMT -5
Very few houses are selling even at a loss and in an area with a bad school? Good luck. It isn't like a bad area just "happened." They knew it going into it.
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Post by luvmyrav on Feb 25, 2011 9:35:23 GMT -5
I live in a heavily taxed state NY. Homeowners pay 2 taxes property in February and school taxes in the Fall. I live outside a midsize city and the school system is horrible. It is not uncommon for the surrounding school districts to have students who live in the city try to attend. It has become such an issue that some of the districts have hired private investigators to check-up on questionnable cases. They have been known to stake-out bus stops to see if child is dropped off and picked up at the stop as opposed to walking in and out of the house. Many of those that are caught are being prosecuted for fraud, facing jailtime, and also are being charged for the cost of tuition that they stole.
When we were looking to buy our house 10 yrs or so ago school districts were a huge factor. We did not want to buy in a district that borders along the city for this very reason. Why should we pay higher taxes in both property and school to have the city problmes enter into our schools. Those schools that border along the city are now having some of the problems that the city schools have. They have had to hire local law enforcement and one school in particular has a major gang issue. Kids in this school aren't allowed to wear a particular color because it is associated with a huge city gang.
I am sorry but I am not paying the absurd taxes I do for others to steal my DD's god education.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 25, 2011 9:41:58 GMT -5
Yup, I agree now. They made their choice and it was a bad one and as far as the OP has said, they haven't asked her for her help so best to let them stew in it. Too bad it's the kids that always suffer for the parent's mistakes. If only those that make the mistakes could suffer instead of the innocent.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 25, 2011 9:49:11 GMT -5
The friend hasn't asked the OP to commit fraud, yet. I wonder if the OP thinks she is going to or is just offering out of the goodness of her heart. I say unless you are willing to have the whole family move in with you and I would hope they would have more class than that, mind your own business. But in reading how many posters have family members that mooch and "borrow" from them, it doesn't surprise me that friends have no issues with it, either.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2011 10:35:45 GMT -5
Yup - they haven't asked and I'm just thinking about it. Apparently my district has limited open enrollment so I think I will suggest that. Speaking of taxes though - my home cost three times what they spent on theirs. But our property taxes are roughly similar. I'm surprised when I talk to my friends about what they did/didn't think about when they purchased their homes. It seems that price was the main determinant over access to major roads, schools, local services, etc.
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Urban Chicago
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Post by Urban Chicago on Feb 25, 2011 11:21:49 GMT -5
Let's say your local school is okay. It meets whatever you consider to be the minimum in terms of education and safety for your kids. The neighboring district is prohibitively expensive, but has an exceptional school district. Is it okay to lie about your address now?
I ask because most posters are assuming the choice is between "great" and "terrible". If that really is the choice, I can see how I might lie out of desperation, but I doubt that there are many such situations.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 25, 2011 11:35:14 GMT -5
Rocket Scientist is not on the list of acceptable careers. You mean they will either be an engineer, nurse or accoutant.
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Feb 25, 2011 11:41:54 GMT -5
And, those who crow about their schools. I don't get it. How do you know what "the best" school is anyway? And does everyone just assume their child is going to want to be a PhD Rocket Scientist or whatever? So what? That's a very good point. Personally, I think the "best" school situation is going to vary from student to student.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Feb 25, 2011 12:19:10 GMT -5
I don't know why everyone is talking about property taxes like schools are the ONLY thing they pay for. They pay for a lot more than that. So, unless "you" can tell how much more "you" paying towards the schools vs someone living in $100K less house, that argument looses some of its validity. And, let's say for argument sake, that it is 100% accurate and you pay thousands more towards the school that I do. So what??? If I am paying whatever I can afford, why shouldn't my kids get the same education as yours? Yes, I understand that that's how it works. Doesn't make it right. Lena I absolutely agree with you! (Write that down. ) My kids go to a top 100 public school in the nation and I know for a fact that I pay less in school taxes than the neighboring districts that are mediocre. So property taxes aren't always higher in the better districts. My home is more expensive though. The "price of admission" is charged at the time of purchase of your home. Personally I think all states should be like Michigan, a choice state, with parents free to enroll their children to any public school they want. As I live in NJ and we don't I simply choose to say nothing about the children who do do the fake address so they can go to a better school. And there are a bunch. Some things are just worth more than money and my self respect is one of them. I couldn't live with myself if I did otherwise.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Feb 25, 2011 12:20:11 GMT -5
First, I would like to say that this whole discussion reminds me of the endless CM foodstamps thread, where she figured her kids "shouldn't have" to eat macaroni and cheese just because she couldn't be bothered to improve her job skills. When it was pointed out - repetitively and emphatically - that there were plenty of healthy food choices within her low income, she kept insisting she didn't "like" those foods. The clear message was that taxpayers not only owed her enough money to buy food for her kids, they owed her enough money to buy the food for her kids that they all PREFERRED, regardless of cost.
Second, last time I checked there were about a billion ways a smart and driven underprivileged child could advance in the public school system. Even at the worst public schools, there are people on the lookout for such children specifically so that they can move up. When it does come time for them to think about college, they have exponentially more scholarships and funding available to them than middle class and wealthy children do. And as long as they made the most of their PS education (extra work on the side, a couple courses at community college, whatever) they should be fine.
Third, this thread is a perfect example of why I believe that parents should not depend 100% on the public school system to educate their children. You buy a house in a crappy school district and don't want your child to suffer the consequences? Fine, EDUCATE THEM AT HOME. Not full-time, just extra work on weekends and school breaks and the like. Make sure that YOU are filling in the gaps the public school system is leaving.
I totally fail to understand the mentality that the government should provide for your family's basic needs, and that includes education. If you don't like what you're being offered by the government, pay for better. If you can't pay for better, then DO better. It's not complicated.
Kids with parents who don't properly plan for them are absolutely at a disadvantage in the world. If you think it is or even should be otherwise, you're kidding yourself. The kids who have what it takes will rise above even the worst circumstances. It happens every day. Just like kids who don't have what it takes will fail even if they get the best education and every opportunity that money can buy.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2011 12:38:29 GMT -5
The kids who have what it takes will rise above even the worst circumstances. It happens every day. While I agree with most of your post, I think the above is an oversimplification. In some of the undesirable schools, kids don't feel safe or are subject to bullying because they're different (smarter, dumber, different ethnic group, whatever). Of course bullying goes on in all schools, but I think it's less controllable in the schools where there are a multitude of kids with various issues. Finally, smart kids who go to schools that are dumbed down for the average in that population get bored and get into trouble. Smart kids who are geeks get bullied. It's possible for bad schools to happen to good kids. Some of them never recover.
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sil
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Post by sil on Feb 25, 2011 12:50:15 GMT -5
I understand the concerns, but I guess I see this issue in shades of gray. Giving a false address is fraud, but I understand the motivation. I mean, at least the parent cares about the kids education to try and do something about it now, which is better than we can say for a lot of parents out there
Heck - I've known a few people who lied about their address in order to get better car insurance rates. To me, that is worse because the motivation is petty.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Feb 25, 2011 12:53:08 GMT -5
Athena, you are correct. There will always be kids who fall through the cracks, kids who could have done better in better circumstances.
However, part of growing up is learning to play the hand you were dealt - and that holds true for every human being on earth. Call it an oversimplification if you wish. I call it reality.
Really, what alternative do we have? Your dad was a drunk, your mom was a washout and you went to a crappy school where you barely learned to read. Now you're 20 - you can either accept the fact that you had a bad start in life and try to make something of yourself despite it, or you can roll over and give up, and resign yourself to a life of poverty. There is no other option. There's no way of going back and giving a kid what they didn't have.
Whether you choose to rise above your circumstances or not, it CHANGES nothing about those circumstances. Your childhood, my childhood, and everyone else's childhood circumstances are not subject to revision no matter what you do. That's an important distinction. Nothing anyone can do changes the past or the circumstances into which one was born. Learning to deal with that fact early can actually be a positive thing in a person's life.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Feb 25, 2011 12:55:29 GMT -5
I understand the concerns, but I guess I see this issue in shades of gray. Giving a false address is fraud, but I understand the motivation. I mean, at least the parent cares about the kids education to try and do something about it now, which is better than we can say for a lot of parents out there
At least they care? Apparently they didn't care enough to plan ahead before they bought a house in a bad district. Apparently not enough to make the sacrifices to rent a house in a better district. Apparently not enough to teach their kids on the side and make up for the gaps their PS system offers.
They care enough to cheat their way into a better school. I'm not impressed.
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pepper112765
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Post by pepper112765 on Feb 25, 2011 12:55:45 GMT -5
Some school districts allow children to attend "out of boundary" schools based on where child care is received. Maybe you all should look into that. It is actually up to the principal of the school if the child is allowed to attend, based on factors such as enrollment numbers, etc.
The best bet is to go to that particular School Board's website to determine residency and enrollment requirements and go from there.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Feb 25, 2011 13:00:36 GMT -5
And there I was thinking you always agree with me Lena
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sil
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Post by sil on Feb 25, 2011 13:01:59 GMT -5
Agreed - if you are living in a bad school district, you probably made an unwise choice somewhere down the line.
But there are a whole lot of parents in bad school districts who really do not seem to care that their children are trapped there (which I believe is the biggest reason why these school districts continue to be so bad) and there are those parents who want something much better for their kids and who are searching (too late, granted) for a solution.
I have more sympathy for the parents who are trying to give their kids a better life, even if they should have been planning for the circumstance much, much sooner.
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Feb 25, 2011 14:56:24 GMT -5
You refused to pay for his education! Why don't you pay for it if it's so important to you? Why don't the kids parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc? Why is it ok for you to decide how I should spend my money, but I can't tell you to spend your own money for the things that benefit you and your family? You seem to want to ignore that society gets a lot more out of education than just a well-educated child. The benefits of this education are enjoyed by all of us. And you all want to ignore that there's also a cost that comes along with letting everyone in. Most "good" schools have smaller class sizes than bad ones. That obviously goes away if you let a bunch of additional kids in. Some of these kids are coming from families where education isn't valued, study time and homework aren't made a priority, the kids home life might suck so bad they can barely function in school. Part of the reason more affluent people tend to herd together is to avoid problems like that. You want them in your children's school, bully for you, go live in the projects you'll save a bundle. I personally don't, and I'm willing to pay a premium to avoid it. Last I checked we still lived in a free country where people can make those kind of choices without government interference. Besides, lets again look at reality. If you open up all public schools and the lower achieving students start swamping the formerly better schools the parents with means will pull their children out and put them in private school, while simultaneously opposing any and all tax increases or additional school funding, since their families are no longer benefiting. The poorer kids will still get a worse education, the more affluent kids will still get a better one, and the public schools will probably lose funding overall, or have to spend more of it on busing and stuff. It's a no win game. You can't force people with other opportunities to short change their children for some ideal of fairness. I'll always do whatever I can to give my kids a leg up. Unless we go to a completely communist like economy, my kids will have opportunities that poor kids don't. Nature of the freakin beast. Honey - we live in California - I could be wrong, but I believe it's a state mandate that children be given the option to attend schools in other zones and districts. Which is our kids went to one school even though we lived in another zone (and eventually district and at that point we claimed my parents address as our address (lied) because I didn't feel like going through the hassle of applying for an inter-district transfer).
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Feb 25, 2011 15:01:11 GMT -5
Wait, what? The school was like a block from our condo, what school were they supposed to be in?
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Feb 25, 2011 15:04:15 GMT -5
They were supposed to go to Soquel Elementary.. even though we lived in Aptos. Effed, right? Prop 13 makes it so property taxes are evenly distributed, so it really doesn't matter where you send your kids to school in terms of what you're paying for, except for bonds, etc. I believe. I could be totally wrong though
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2011 15:19:33 GMT -5
I think you only have right of transfer if your school is considered officially failing. The problem is that sometimes most or all of the schools in a particular district are failing. One of my best friends went to Soquel
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2011 15:20:58 GMT -5
So my friend lives in a city about 45 minutes away from me but her DH drives by my house on his way to work. It's a pretty poor area so not a lot of options - think Watsonville and Salinas for Loop and DarkHonor.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Feb 25, 2011 15:46:53 GMT -5
Prop 13 makes it so property taxes are evenly distributed, so it really doesn't matter where you send your kids to school in terms of what you're paying for, except for bonds, etc. I believe. It wasn't Prop 13. It was a state law passed a year or so prior that took away local school funding. Prop 13 was in response. You still have the issue of people paying a premium for a house in a good school district though. The more affluent kids still get a better education than the poorer kids even with "fair" state funding of schools.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Feb 25, 2011 15:49:54 GMT -5
think Watsonville and Salinas for Loop and DarkHonor. We paid more to avoid those areas, but if we had decided on the cheaper house our kids would be in a private or charter school. If she can't afford either option, she should probably consider an apartment in a nicer area instead of a house in a crappy one. It's a tough choice though. When we first moved out here my youngest had to finish kindergarten in a school in Watsonville. One of their poorer performing ones. There's no way in hell I would have let her go there all through elementary. We moved in the middle of the school year, and it was the only kindergarten opening, so that was one thing, but long term, no way in hell.
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Feb 25, 2011 15:50:09 GMT -5
Actually, they get the same education (pretty much), but because the teachers aren't dealing with issues of poverty, language, etc, the teachers have more time to deal with just teaching.
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