Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Feb 24, 2011 14:41:12 GMT -5
Property taxes aren't tuition. Paying property taxes doesn't entitle you to anything other than the right to own your property for another year.
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Urban Chicago
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Post by Urban Chicago on Feb 24, 2011 14:43:14 GMT -5
The thing is you don't HAVE to make that choice. I live in a great house, great neighborhood, great city, and a bad school district. Many friends and relatives told DH and I that we should move into the burbs to get a good district, but now, 5 years later, they are the ones regretting the choice. Most of them still live in a "good" district, but now are upset because they really have limited choices. No charter schools, very few private schools. Basically they can go with public or home school.
I have a many choices. Catholic, Charter, Magnet, other religious schools, academic private, etc... Most of these cost some money, but but DH and I planned for this when we bought our house.
Here are some examples of problems that our friends are having in their "good" districts.
-One family did not research, and found out that the local public schools teach kids, starting in 5th grade, all about the birds and bees. They even (gasp) talk about options besides abstinence. The family in question are seriously religious and want to go private now, but all the private schools in any reasonable distance are way too expensive. They might have been affordable without the families huge property tax bill.
-One family has a gifted kid. The local district has multiple programs for special needs kids, and none for gifted. Being a public school in our state, they have NO option about this.
-One family moved into a great district. They still rank very highly, but due to extreme budget cuts, the school no longer has any art, music, shop, agriculture, etc...
-One family has a kid who is being bullied. The bully is not being disciplined, and the school can not remove the kid as all children are entitled to the local public school.
All of these issues can be addressed pretty easily if you have more than one school to choose from, even if your local public school is bad.
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Feb 24, 2011 14:45:40 GMT -5
"The government does run publicly funded institutions promising that every child has the right to an education." They do. They do not guarantee that it will be in the condition that you would like it to be. They don't guarantee it will be composed of the ethnic makeup you would like it to be. They don't guarantee you can customize the school to be exactly as you would like. What they do is run publicly funded education promising that every child has the right to attend school and get an education. Simply becuase you don't happen to like the school that the publicly funded education system has given you, you don't have some entitlement to commit fraud to get what you want simply because you think you should have it. I'm saying it shouldn't be fraud to send your child to a school of your choice.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Feb 24, 2011 14:46:24 GMT -5
I don't consider expecting safe and good education environment as EVERYTHING. I consider that one of the basics.
Lena
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Feb 24, 2011 14:46:30 GMT -5
"Paying property taxes doesn't entitle you to anything other than the right to own your property for another year. "
Directly? no. Indirectly? Yes it does. It entitles you to own your property for another year, and owning your property for that year entitles you to many things, one of which is the ability to send your child to that school's district.
And since renting is indirectly paying the property taxes...same thing.
Paying property taxes doesn't entitle you to anything specific, but it entitles you to keep living where you're living, which DOES entitle you to lots of things.
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runewell
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Post by runewell on Feb 24, 2011 14:48:55 GMT -5
NO. You should be honest, regardless of the circumstances.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Feb 24, 2011 14:50:54 GMT -5
Petunia,
I must be terrible at getting my point accross. I am not talking about how easy or hard it is for a kid to pick another language. I am talking about the fact that if there are 15 6 yr olds all speaking Spanish to each other, IMHO, there is more likely than not that they will ignore 5 kids who don't speak the language. It's only natural. And "I" wouldn't want to send my kid to that type of school. Also, even though instructions are all might be in English if 15 kids only know Spanish or very limited English, it will be tougher on the teacher to keep the consistent with those who speak English.
That's all, that was my entire point in regards to that.
What I am saying to Hoops is my second point - the system that forces parents to choose where to live, how to live and how to spend their money is wrong if we are talking about the system that should provide basic services equally well to everybody.
Lena
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Feb 24, 2011 14:54:17 GMT -5
"Paying property taxes doesn't entitle you to anything other than the right to own your property for another year. " Directly? no. Indirectly? Yes it does. It entitles you to own your property for another year, and owning your property for that year entitles you to many things, one of which is the ability to send your child to that school's district. And since renting is indirectly paying the property taxes...same thing. Paying property taxes doesn't entitle you to anything specific, but it entitles you to keep living where you're living, which DOES entitle you to lots of things. Well, I suppose we are going to continue to disagree then. I will continue to believe that public means just that, for the public; private means for those who so choose and can pay.
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michelyn8
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Post by michelyn8 on Feb 24, 2011 14:57:25 GMT -5
Anne, if you decide to do this, keep in mind it can get very complicated. For one thing, your friend would have to ensure that they list your address and phone number as primary residence/contact information (especially if your prefix is one that is not used in her "area".
Given that her district is subpar, I am going to hedge a bet that the school in your district is going to require some additional information. When my daughter moved in with her father and switched schools, he had to provide the school with the custody papers, a copy of his lease, utilitiy bills and some other stuff I can't remember to prove he actually lived in that town and had physical custody of her.
Also, if I remember right, her in VA, they don't necessarily press charges but some districts will go after the parents for "tuition" to cover the expenses of educating an out of district child AFTER they kick the child out of school and tell you they have to attend where they live.
I wouldn't go through all of this for a friend, but if one of my nieces or nephews had needed me too, I would have done it. I had my children out of district for one year in elementary school. The next year I put my acutal address on the forms and about 6 weeks in received a letter from the school board about the difference in residence v. district. It just so happened that in the middle of the "investigation" by the school board about my situation, my lease ended and I moved back into the district they were attending. I live in a County that has one high school and one middle school. Only the elementary schools are broken out into districts so it wasn't uncommon to have your child attend where their babysitter lived. Back then, exceptions were made for childcare arrangements but they were getting away from those exceptions when my situation came about.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2011 14:59:28 GMT -5
One family has a kid who is being bullied. The bully is not being disciplined, and the school cannot remove the kid as all children are entitled to the local public school. To me, this is one of the major problems with the public school system. When there are so many kids in there who are disruptive, who don't want to be there, who are such a danger to the other kids and to teachers that they have to have security guards and metal detectors, I say expel the ones who are making it dangerous and difficult for everyone else. Our suburban school system has paid "school bus attendants". What they heck are they? Why can't kids who refuse to behave on the bus have their bus privileges suspended or revoked? Think how much better the "bad" school districts would do if they could just exercise some discretion.
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souldoubt
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Post by souldoubt on Feb 24, 2011 15:00:09 GMT -5
Public does mean for the public but there has to be some rules. You can't allow people to choose at will where their kids go because then good schools will become overcrowded and have issues related to education quality. What happens when a family moves into the area and the school is full because of kids outside of the district? Do you tell them they have to send their kid 10 miles away to a school that's got medal detectors and cops roaming the campus for security purposes?
I think there's some good points on both sides but the reality is like everything there are limited resources to go around. It's not fair that some schools are bad because of a variety of reasons and that kids living in the area have to go there. It's also no more fair to people who buy or rent in an area to make their schools worse at the expense of people who don't live in the area.
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Urban Chicago
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Post by Urban Chicago on Feb 24, 2011 15:02:29 GMT -5
Totally Agree
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michelyn8
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Post by michelyn8 on Feb 24, 2011 15:15:26 GMT -5
Our suburban school system has paid "school bus attendants". What they heck are they? Why can't kids who refuse to behave on the bus have their bus privileges suspended or revoked? Read more: notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=finance&action=display&thread=3877&page=3#ixzz1EuP5FNPGMy county has them and did when my kids were in school. They aren't always a good thing. The one on my kids' bus created more problems than she prevented. I butted heads with her over my daughter and finally had to get the school administration involved to resolve the problem. The kicker is that before the aid was put on that bus, the driver never had any real issues with any of the children on her route.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 24, 2011 15:17:19 GMT -5
Because they aren't allowed to suspend misbehaving kids. The attendant is there in hopes that she can protect the ones that don't cause trouble.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2011 16:21:46 GMT -5
Thanks for all the responses. I'm trying to think everything through so if the subject comes up I'll be ready.
My friend's school district has drug and gang problems, even down to the elementary level. Some of the parents were asking cops to drive their kids to school. There are few educational options (the one charter school that takes 20 students in Kindergarten and one parochial school that takes the same amount.)
I think I'm feeling guilty because I have access to a great public school but will be sending DS elsewhere while my friend is faced with this situation. It hurts to not see kids get the best education possible.
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Feb 24, 2011 16:22:43 GMT -5
Public does mean for the public but there has to be some rules. You can't allow people to choose at will where their kids go because then good schools will become overcrowded and have issues related to education quality. What happens when a family moves into the area and the school is full because of kids outside of the district? Do you tell them they have to send their kid 10 miles away to a school that's got medal detectors and cops roaming the campus for security purposes? I think there's some good points on both sides but the reality is like everything there are limited resources to go around. It's not fair that some schools are bad because of a variety of reasons and that kids living in the area have to go there. It's also no more fair to people who buy or rent in an area to make their schools worse at the expense of people who don't live in the area. I think that allowing you to send your child where you wish would force schools to compete for your "business". Where would that get us? Better schools! Competition breeds better products. I understand your points about fairness, and don't disagree per se, but it all comes down to this: If I have a child who's educational needs are not being met at the school my district has decided is his/her school, should I just chalk it up to "well, after all, that's fair"? Nope, I'm going to do what I believe to be in my child's best interest.
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Post by greeneyedchicka on Feb 24, 2011 16:23:05 GMT -5
"Also, if I remember right, her in VA, they don't necessarily press charges but some districts will go after the parents for "tuition" to cover the expenses of educating an out of district child AFTER they kick the child out of school and tell you they have to attend where they live."
The school district in my area does this. They have out of district tuition amounts posted on their website. They also not only require a copy of the lease, utility bill, etc. they will come to the residence and visit. They ask to see the child's room, etc. as proof that they do indeed live there.
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Feb 24, 2011 16:24:41 GMT -5
One family has a kid who is being bullied. The bully is not being disciplined, and the school cannot remove the kid as all children are entitled to the local public school. To me, this is one of the major problems with the public school system. When there are so many kids in there who are disruptive, who don't want to be there, who are such a danger to the other kids and to teachers that they have to have security guards and metal detectors, I say expel the ones who are making it dangerous and difficult for everyone else. Our suburban school system has paid "school bus attendants". What they heck are they? Why can't kids who refuse to behave on the bus have their bus privileges suspended or revoked? Think how much better the "bad" school districts would do if they could just exercise some discretion. Yeah, I'd vote for that.
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Feb 24, 2011 16:27:30 GMT -5
"Also, if I remember right, her in VA, they don't necessarily press charges but some districts will go after the parents for "tuition" to cover the expenses of educating an out of district child AFTER they kick the child out of school and tell you they have to attend where they live." The school district in my area does this. They have out of district tuition amounts posted on their website. They also not only require a copy of the lease, utility bill, etc. they will come to the residence and visit. They ask to see the child's room, etc. as proof that they do indeed live there. Aren't the schools in your state paid based on daily attendance?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2011 16:29:24 GMT -5
Thanks for giving me some directions to search in. Apparently my school district offers open enrollment for out of district students when they are not fully enrolled. Basically the idea is to bring in money to under-enrolled schools. I'd much prefer to go the legal route.
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souldoubt
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Post by souldoubt on Feb 24, 2011 16:41:32 GMT -5
Public does mean for the public but there has to be some rules. You can't allow people to choose at will where their kids go because then good schools will become overcrowded and have issues related to education quality. What happens when a family moves into the area and the school is full because of kids outside of the district? Do you tell them they have to send their kid 10 miles away to a school that's got medal detectors and cops roaming the campus for security purposes? I think there's some good points on both sides but the reality is like everything there are limited resources to go around. It's not fair that some schools are bad because of a variety of reasons and that kids living in the area have to go there. It's also no more fair to people who buy or rent in an area to make their schools worse at the expense of people who don't live in the area. I think that allowing you to send your child where you wish would force schools to compete for your "business". Where would that get us? Better schools! Competition breeds better products. I understand your points about fairness, and don't disagree per se, but it all comes down to this: If I have a child who's educational needs are not being met at the school my district has decided is his/her school, should I just chalk it up to "well, after all, that's fair"? Nope, I'm going to do what I believe to be in my child's best interest. That wouldn't work with the current system. Where I live schools get money in part based on attendance. If parents can willingly choose where their kid goes do you think only parents of good/smart/well rounded kids are going to send their kids off to the better schools? You're going to get parents who have average to bad students who want to do that as well. When those kids don't show up or test poorly then the schools will start to suffer. With NCLB schools will have to cater to kids of all levels in the same grade simply because their parents think they deserve to be there. If your childs educational needs aren't met I don't see why that's the problem of a school in a different district that's funded by tax dollars of people living there. Where I live with millions of people in one county alone it's not feasible to allow people to arbitrarily decide where to send their kids to school. There used to be open enrollment between the 4 high schools in the city I grew up in and maybe it's not like that where you live but when it came to middle schools it was based on where you lived.
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Feb 24, 2011 16:54:37 GMT -5
souldoubt "Where I live schools get money in part based on attendance. If parents can willingly choose where their kid goes do you think only parents of good/smart/well rounded kids are going to send their kids off to the better schools?"
No, I think lots of parents would make different choices. I see that as a good thing.
souldoubt "If your childs educational needs aren't met I don't see why that's the problem of a school in a different district that's funded by tax dollars of people living there. "
Tax dollars go to schools based on daily attendance in my state. Is it different in your state? So if the school is receiving funds for that child's attendance, how is that a problem?
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Feb 24, 2011 16:56:41 GMT -5
Thanks for giving me some directions to search in. Apparently my school district offers open enrollment for out of district students when they are not fully enrolled. Basically the idea is to bring in money to under-enrolled schools. I'd much prefer to go the legal route.
Does this mean your friend will be able to open enroll her child to your district legally? I hope it all works out for the little boy.
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Feb 24, 2011 16:57:55 GMT -5
I am finding it interesting that so many here feel that property tax dollars buy entrance into a particular school. How about federal income taxes? State income taxes? If you pay more in income taxes than I do, do you have more of a right to other public services? If you pay less in income taxes than I do, do you have less of a right to other public services?
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souldoubt
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Post by souldoubt on Feb 24, 2011 17:08:29 GMT -5
souldoubt "Where I live schools get money in part based on attendance. If parents can willingly choose where their kid goes do you think only parents of good/smart/well rounded kids are going to send their kids off to the better schools?" No, I think lots of parents would make different choices. I see that as a good thing. souldoubt "If your childs educational needs aren't met I don't see why that's the problem of a school in a different district that's funded by tax dollars of people living there. " Tax dollars go to schools based on daily attendance in my state. Is it different in your state? So if the school is receiving funds for that child's attendance, how is that a problem? I don't know what different choices you're talking about. If parents can arbitrarily choose where kids go then parents of gifted/advanced/focused children aren't the only one's who will think their kids deserve a "better" school. In California schools do get money based on attendance but that isn't the sole determinant. Schools in better areas might get more funding on a local level because it's funded by additional property taxes. If the citizens agree to pay those taxes for educational purposes then they shouldn't be paying them for the education of kids from out of the district. The sad truth is that under the current system schools game the system to get more funding. That isn't right at all but I don't think redistributing the money coming from local funding in the way of educating kids from out of the area is right either.
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souldoubt
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Post by souldoubt on Feb 24, 2011 17:16:48 GMT -5
I am finding it interesting that so many here feel that property tax dollars buy entrance into a particular school. How about federal income taxes? State income taxes? If you pay more in income taxes than I do, do you have more of a right to other public services? If you pay less in income taxes than I do, do you have less of a right to other public services? Apples to oranges. Property taxes, sales taxes and some other taxes are on a local level. If people live in an area where they pay more to local authorities for whatever reason then I think they should reap the benefits of paying more. Otherwise it's just a continued redistribution of money and you might as well just continue to give more power at the federal level. Personally I'd rather see more things handled at a local level. Federal and State income taxes are a whole different ball game. Unless I move to a different state I can't opt to not pay taxes to California. If I don't pay the feds we all know what will happen.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Feb 24, 2011 17:45:01 GMT -5
I am finding it interesting that so many here feel that property tax dollars buy entrance into a particular school. It's not really the property tax, it's the purchase price too. My house would have been about $100k less on the other side of town. Which has the worst public elementary school in the city, and goes to the poorer performing of the two junior highs as well. We knowingly paid an extra $100k for the house so that our kids could go to better schools, among other things. Does the system kind of suck? Sure. Once you've bought your way in though, of course you're going to resent anyone else using fraud to get in.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Feb 24, 2011 17:51:24 GMT -5
What if you couldn't afford that extra $100K? Does that mean that you children should go to a crappy school? Shouldn't you have an expectation that your children will have access to the same good education as those whose parents can afford extra $100K?
Lena
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2011 18:10:40 GMT -5
We knowingly paid an extra $100k for the house so that our kids could go to better schools, among other things. Does the system kind of suck? Sure. Once you've bought your way in though, of course you're going to resent anyone else using fraud to get in. I live in KS near the MO border and when we were looking at houses, my co-workers told me that they were cheaper on the MO side but the schools were pretty bad and people who could afford it sent their kids to private schools. (Even though we were empty nesters we ended up in KS.) I absolutely agree that the current system is broken. One thing that happens in some areas is a death spiral where the schools deteriorate, young families move out, and the people who are left don't have any kids in the system so they don't support it. I still don't believe that a broken system justifies fraud. I hope the OP's friend can get her son into the district legitimately.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Feb 24, 2011 18:30:32 GMT -5
"I think that allowing you to send your child where you wish would force schools to compete for your "business". Where would that get us? Better schools! Competition breeds better products."
How does this get us better schools? There is no competition to compete for "our business" if it's not based on a situation where you have to pay to have your kid attend the school.
"I am finding it interesting that so many here feel that property tax dollars buy entrance into a particular school"
Because schools are based on districts, and teh school in the district is based upon where you live.
"How about federal income taxes? State income taxes? If you pay more in income taxes than I do, do you have more of a right to other public services? If you pay less in income taxes than I do, do you have less of a right to other public services? "
This isn't a relevant analogy. Regardless of how MUCH in property taxes a homeowner pays in a district, they are entitled to the same services. A homeowner who lives in District 1 and pays $10,000 in taxes has the same benefits that someone living in District 1 and paying $1,000 in property taxes.
In paying federal taxes we are all part of the same district (the US). Based on your argument it shouldn't matter what country we live in or pay taxes in, we should all just lie and use the services in other countries. By your logic it's totally ok if someone from Mexico comes to the US, pays no taxes, obtains fraudulent documentation, and uses up our medical services. The issue is not the AMOUNT of taxes paid, it's which district you are paying taxes in. By your argument people in City B should be able to call up City C and demand that a police officer comes to take their report of theft because they dont' feel like calling City B's police department. The AMOUNT of money you pay is not important, who you pay that money to IS.
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