ugga81
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Post by ugga81 on Feb 24, 2011 13:23:22 GMT -5
We had a similar situation when I was in school. A family moved to the neighboring town but didn't want to change their child's school district his senior year. (don't ask me why they'd move knowing this...) The school district refused to let them attend from out of district. My mom knew the family and didn't want the kid to fall in with a bad crowd in the new town (he was quite impressionable and had been making great strides and his grades had been improving since he had initially come to our school).
The way I recall, my mom and his mom actually went to a lawyer and had a quasi-custody agreement drawn up (I doubt it cost too much). He stayed with us 3 or 4 nights during the week so he was actually a "resident" and my mom was given the legal right to get emergency care for him and whatnot. He'd go home after school and then his mom would drop him off later (usually an hour or 2 before bedtime) I thought this was a great solution.
In practice, it ended up moot. He stopped staying with us regularly, his grades went in the toilet, and eventually he just transferred anyways. But the solution I thought was a good one. It appeased the district that he was a resident and it didn't really take a whole lot of extra work on anyone's part (except the kid was sleeping in a different bed a few days a week).
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oreo
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Post by oreo on Feb 24, 2011 13:31:01 GMT -5
We moved into our house 19 years ago, well before we had my son (who is now 2) so schools weren't a major consideration at that point in my life (hadn't decided if we'd have kids or not then). We have a program in our area where you can apply to go to a different school and, if there is room, they allow kids outside of the area to attend. That is what we plan to do. We'll apply every year until he gets in and in the mean time we'll just help our son excel in our local school.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Feb 24, 2011 13:33:48 GMT -5
Hoops,
that is all nice and dandy in theory, but not everyone can afford to buy a house, especially lately, where they want to. Not everyone has an ability to make any kind of money they want.
So, yes, I kind of, sort of have a choice of where I live, but I find it wrong wrong wrong that I have to make a lot of my life choices based on the fact that some districts created a terrible learning environment.
I am not even going into the whole scenario of how you can buy a house in a perfectly good district, only to have it deteriorate a few years later by numerous housing and "educational" programs that our dear govt has showed down our throats.
I am a huge advocate for personal choices and personal responsibility, but in this particular area, you can do everything right and still end up with the short end of the stick
Lena
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Feb 24, 2011 13:37:09 GMT -5
The school might not be "bad, bad bad", but I wouldn't want my kid to go to school where 75% of children not only had a different native language, but the same native language. Can you honestly tell me that you don't see how it could be problematic on two levels? One - inside the classroom the teacher might have to spend a lot of extra time with kids who might not understand English and therefore will be taking longer to learn things. Two - outside of the classroom, where 15 out of 20 kids speak a different language among themselves, your white kid is left with only potentially 5 kids to play/interact with. Lena Ummm, children of hispanic descent living right here in America do not have a different native language. Their native language is English. They may or may not have a different first language, but young children soak up language very quickly. I live in California's central valley. We have a large hispanic population. My children had the benefit of knowing many kids who were fluent in Spanish and picked up A LOT of conversational Spanish. I certainly don't feel it is a problem. Typically, young children have no prejudice until they are taught it by others. No, my children never experienced problems on the playground due to their skin being white.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2011 13:41:16 GMT -5
Is it fair to expect parents who care about kid's education to pay for private schools just bc they have no control over how the "local" school is run, who goes there and the quality of teachers and education in that school? <snip> So, until there is a country-wide movement to change this system entirely parents are faced with difficult decisions. No, it's not fair. Well, my son is the 3rd generation for which parents were paying property taxes to support public schools, plus the costs of private schools. In my mother's case and mine, it was to go to religious schools. In my son's case, a well-regarded school district shortchanged him and he flourished in the private school. In the OP's case, I'd argue that the friends got a discount on the house because the school system was inferior and now they want to have their cake and eat it, too. But I absolutely agree with you that the whole public school monopoly/bureaucracy needs to be thrown out and replaced. Note that there was a charter school in the area- and of course they don't have enough room for all the kids whose parents want them there.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Feb 24, 2011 13:43:24 GMT -5
"I am not even going into the whole scenario of how you can buy a house in a perfectly good district, only to have it deteriorate a few years later by numerous housing and "educational" programs that our dear govt has showed down our throats."
You can, and in some situations I'd feel really badly for the families. In this particular case though, they bought, knowing it was a bad district, and figured they would "just move" when it came time to have kids in school. I don't feel sorry for people who take gambles with their kids' education because they aren't good decision makers.
"that is all nice and dandy in theory, but not everyone can afford to buy a house"
No, but nearly everyone can afford to rent an apartment SOMEWHERE in a decent district. I mean we're not talking about top tier districts anyways, we're talking about somewhere safe witha decent school. Poor foresight and planning on someone's part is not a justification for committing fraud to correct your poor judgement.
"I am a huge advocate for personal choices and personal responsibility, but in this particular area, you can do everything right and still end up with the short end of the stick"
You can, but you can drastically decrease your chances to get the short end of the stick. In this case though, the person pretty much did everything wrong to get the short end of the stick. The same argument could be made in most areas though. You can do everything right in training to be employable and still not get a job, should we allow those people to commit fraud to get one? You can do everything right to keep yourself healthy and still get sick, should we allow them to commit fraud to get super expensive treatments they aren't entitled to?
There's a pretty hefty gap between "do I feel bad for your situation" and "is it ok that you commit fraud to get what you want". In the case here, I don't even rise to the "feel bad" level, they took a dumb risk with their kids' education and lost.
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souldoubt
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Post by souldoubt on Feb 24, 2011 13:45:00 GMT -5
That can vary by area. I live in a fairly nice area in Southern California and went to school with hispanic kids some of which weren't fluent in english by the time they graduated high school. Most of these kids came from the same small neighborhood and I'll be completely honest with you, it's not a place you want to be in at night. They put a cop substation in that particular neighborhood, there's trash all over the place, graffiti on buildings and bars on most windows. If you didn't know about the neighborhood you wouldn't have any idea if you were just visiting the city and driving on a major street that goes right by it. The school spent a lot of time and money on ESL classes which some kids took all the way through high school.
In both middle school and high school we had a lot of fights that broke out that were race related. We even had bilingual kids who had parents who immigrated here from Mexico who used to get into fights with a lot of the kids who didn't speak English fluently because they could understand what the kids said to them in Spanish.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Feb 24, 2011 13:47:38 GMT -5
Yes, all children are wonderful and all play together and it's all great and they will pick up a different language bc they are all so nice to each other. That's why there is a story on a news every other day about bullying and books about how to deal with children cruelty and everything else
Kids might not be prejudice on purpose, but they gravitate towards "familiar" and if there are 10 kids who are just like them who speak the same language, they will most likely play with those kids, instead of looking for diversity and your white kid so they can help him "pick up a different language.
Hey, what do I know? After all, I only spend about a year in a school where 90% of others spoke a different language. It must have been that they just didn't like me and it had nothing to do with the fact that we didn't understand each other very well.
Like I always say, I could be wrong. I've been wrong before.
Lena
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Feb 24, 2011 13:47:57 GMT -5
Absolutely not. It's fraud, pure and simple. I've paid enough sky-high property taxes to support good school systems that I would resent kids being there when they have no right to be. In what way is this fair to other parents who play by the rules, either by keeping their kids in their legal district or by paying private school tuition? Public schools are not open to those with the ability to pay, they are for everyone. Paying property taxes absolutely does not entitle you or your children to special privileges. Every child has a right to good schools. If you want special privileges to good schools based on your ability to pay, then go private.
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patchwork150
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Post by patchwork150 on Feb 24, 2011 13:50:45 GMT -5
Before I start typing my long response to this - have you or anyone you know have actually experienced this first-hand? Lena 3 ways. I spoke german when I was in elementary school, not english. In middle and high school I grew up in a very poor school district. It was one of the best high schools in the county. Poor does not always equal bad! And I learned Spanish via interaction with people who spoke spanish as a first language. I speak fluently. So, at least I have something to go on. Lena- how old are you? Life in school was a lot different than it is now, racism is still alive but at least not as prevalent now. I never heard of ANYONE getting beat up for their culture, language, or skin color where I grew up.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2011 13:51:11 GMT -5
I had another thought on this- now you're telling your kids to lie. "Don't tell anyone where we really live." "No, you can't have friends over- they'd know our real address." "No, Billy's mom can't drop you off at home. I'll have to come get you." What kind of a lesson is that for your kids?
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Feb 24, 2011 13:52:11 GMT -5
"Public schools are not open to those with the ability to pay, they are for everyone."
What? They are absolutely only open to those with the ability to pay. If you do not have the ability to pay the property taxes in the area, you do not get to go to school there (unless the district makes an exception to open-enroll you). I agree it doesn't entitle you to special privileges, because everyone in that district is paying the applicable property taxes.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Feb 24, 2011 13:52:46 GMT -5
Do schools where you live allow for open enrollment? In my city we have 2 public high schools and one Catholic school. We moved during the school year and my DS would have had to switch from "west" to "east" schools. The district allows open enrollment and he was able to stay at his old school but we have to provide his transportation to and from school. Is open enrollment an option?
When we lived in So California my son was one of only 2 white kids in his class (moved during 2nd grade). He didn't care and didn't notice that the other kids were of different races. But when he was ready to go to 6th grade (junior high) we looked at transferring him to a private school because the jr high was really bad. We were friends with the principal and he told us to send DS somewhere else. Horrible race fights, gang problems, etc because they bussed kids from bad parts of town into our decent part of town for jr high.
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Feb 24, 2011 14:00:35 GMT -5
Yes, all children are wonderful and all play together and it's all great and they will pick up a different language bc they are all so nice to each other. That's why there is a story on a news every other day about bullying and books about how to deal with children cruelty and everything else Kids might not be prejudice on purpose, but they gravitate towards "familiar" and if there are 10 kids who are just like them who speak the same language, they will most likely play with those kids, instead of looking for diversity and your white kid so they can help him "pick up a different language. Hey, what do I know? After all, I only spend about a year in a school where 90% of others spoke a different language. It must have been that they just didn't like me and it had nothing to do with the fact that we didn't understand each other very well. Like I always say, I could be wrong. I've been wrong before. Lena I agree, all children are wonderful. I'm sorry you had a bad experience when you were a minority in your school. I did not have a bad experience, nor did my children.
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Feb 24, 2011 14:03:14 GMT -5
"Public schools are not open to those with the ability to pay, they are for everyone." What? They are absolutely only open to those with the ability to pay. If you do not have the ability to pay the property taxes in the area, you do not get to go to school there (unless the district makes an exception to open-enroll you). I agree it doesn't entitle you to special privileges, because everyone in that district is paying the applicable property taxes. Public schools were founded on the idea that education is for all, not just for those who can pay. It is the very reason we have public schools in this country.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Feb 24, 2011 14:05:30 GMT -5
Patch,
I never said poor=bad. I said that if 75% of kids speak Spanish as their primary language, it will be hard on 25% of kids who don't. It will be isolating for them inside and outside of classroom. See #38. It's not even about race, it's simply about the fact that language barrier is hard one to overcome. And it's not about getting beat up either. It's about the potential pool of friends, etc. It's just natural for people to want to speak with other people who speak their language.
I didn't grow up in US school system, I came here when I was 16 and had to go to regular school for about a year.
Lena
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Feb 24, 2011 14:08:29 GMT -5
And yet, we discriminate greatly based on what you can afford and where you choose to live. And THAT is the problem that I have with this.
If I like a certain location for various reasons, shouldn't I be able to live there and expect a good and safe educational environment for my kids? And yet, I have to make a choice of where to live and how to live (house vs apartment) based solely on one thing and one thing only - school district.
Seriously, am I the only one who finds that preposterous?
Lena
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patchwork150
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Post by patchwork150 on Feb 24, 2011 14:10:23 GMT -5
lena- I was referring to the OP's post, sorry for seeming to imply you said that! She just made it seem like poor and hispanic area = bad school.
I understand that language barriers are difficult, i've been there many times. But, I like to look at things in the positive, which might skew my thoughts a bit. I had good experiences mostly, so I look at possible positives. But I understand that the world is not perfect and that there are plenty of negatives for every situation.
I guess I would feel more for the OP if she had stated that the kid was getting bullied, hurt, couldn't get friends, the actual teachers were terrible, etc. All I heard was 'poor' and 'hispanic kids' and 'non-english speakers' that are 5 years old and in elementary school. Didn't seem like a big deal to me, that's all.
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Feb 24, 2011 14:10:38 GMT -5
Lena, of course it is hard to communicate with someone without a common language. However, school instruction is in English. The hispanic kids don't speak ONLY Spanish, they speak both Spanish and English.
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Feb 24, 2011 14:13:04 GMT -5
And yet, we discriminate greatly based on what you can afford and where you choose to live. And THAT is the problem that I have with this. If I like a certain location for various reasons, shouldn't I be able to live there and expect a good and safe educational environment for my kids? And yet, I have to make a choice of where to live and how to live (house vs apartment) based solely on one thing and one thing only - school district. Seriously, am I the only one who finds that preposterous? Lena No, you're not. That is why I cannot fault a parent who lies about their address to get their child into a different school.
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doxieluvr
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Post by doxieluvr on Feb 24, 2011 14:13:38 GMT -5
I have mixed feelings on it. For one thing, part of why I pay insane housing prices is so that we are in an excellent school zone. Its not fair to us, struggling to live in an upper middle class area, when we are really not that well off, to have children from the less desirable area brought into our schools.
My daughter is on a boundary exception. The school she should attends has lots of kids, and the school in my parents district had a shortage, so the school system let us switch for daycare purposes. Not everyone is given that option if they are trying to get their kids in an already overcrowded school.
On the other hand I do not think any child should be denied an excellent education.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Feb 24, 2011 14:13:52 GMT -5
No, I didn't have any bad experiences nor anyone I know, I just recognize the fact that it can exist.
But since neither you nor your children had any, than I must be wrong and it's all fiction
Lena
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Feb 24, 2011 14:15:05 GMT -5
Maybe.... It would depend on the district, the child, and my relationship with the family. I wouldn't do it casually, however.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Feb 24, 2011 14:20:42 GMT -5
"No, you're not. That is why I cannot fault a parent who lies about their address to get their child into a different school. "
Then surely you're ok with people who commit other types of fraud too right? Or do you just pick and choose which frauds are ok?
"If I like a certain location for various reasons, shouldn't I be able to live there and expect a good and safe educational environment for my kids? And yet, I have to make a choice of where to live and how to live (house vs apartment) based solely on one thing and one thing only - school district."
No you don't. You can choose to send your kid to private school. You can choose to home school. You can live absolutely wherever you like, but as in all things, there are tradeoffs.
If I like a certain location for various reasons shouldn't I be able to live there and expect to have whatever job I like in the area. Shouldn't I also be able to expect that all of the stores I wish to frequent should be forced to set up shop nearby.
You don't have some inalienable right to simply live wherever you like and have everything you want handed to you.
I'd like to live in the Midwest, but you know, I really like the ocean. Shouldn't the government create a new ocean so that those of us in the midwest can enjoy it also without moving?
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Feb 24, 2011 14:22:32 GMT -5
No, I didn't have any bad experiences nor anyone I know, I just recognize the fact that it can exist. But since neither you nor your children had any, than I must be wrong and it's all fiction Lena The OP was regarding a child who hadn't started kindergarten yet. We're talking about young children, still in their formative years, still soaking up language like a sponge. At age 16, it is much harder to pick up a new language. She didn't say the school had gang problems, or drug problems, or attendance problems. She said the school was 3/4 hispanic. I don't see how being hispanic is a problem.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2011 14:28:55 GMT -5
Our school system requires a deed or signed lease plus a utility bill in the parent's name. Cell phones and landlines do not qualify. In the case where a non-custodial parent has the child move in with them, there must be court papers involving the change of custody. For other relatives, the person must be the appointed legal guardian.
If you do make it work and get caught, the child will be withdrawn immediately. That can be pretty traumatic for a small child.
I'm sure there are other penalties possible as the highly publicized case demonstrated.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Feb 24, 2011 14:32:19 GMT -5
"Our school system requires a deed or signed lease plus a utility bill in the parent's name. Cell phones and landlines do not qualify. In the case where a non-custodial parent has the child move in with them, there must be court papers involving the change of custody. For other relatives, the person must be the appointed legal guardian."
So then how does it work if my wife and I live with my parents in the house they own, and we have a child? There would be no deed, lease, or possibly utility bill. They just don't let the kid go to school at all? Seems like that doesn't really work.
ETA: Or renting an apartment that pays all utilities, hence no utility bill in anyone's name other than the apartment owner.
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Feb 24, 2011 14:32:58 GMT -5
Then surely you're ok with people who commit other types of fraud too right? Or do you just pick and choose which frauds are ok? "If I like a certain location for various reasons, shouldn't I be able to live there and expect a good and safe educational environment for my kids? And yet, I have to make a choice of where to live and how to live (house vs apartment) based solely on one thing and one thing only - school district." No you don't. You can choose to send your kid to private school. You can choose to home school. You can live absolutely wherever you like, but as in all things, there are tradeoffs. If I like a certain location for various reasons shouldn't I be able to live there and expect to have whatever job I like in the area. Shouldn't I also be able to expect that all of the stores I wish to frequent should be forced to set up shop nearby. You don't have some inalienable right to simply live wherever you like and have everything you want handed to you. I'd like to live in the Midwest, but you know, I really like the ocean. Shouldn't the government create a new ocean so that tose of us in the midwest can enjoy it also without moving? You're being silly, Hoops. The government does not run publicly funded institutions promising you the right to live at the ocean. The government does run publicly funded institutions promising that every child has the right to an education. Why does the government do that? Because it has been determined that it is in the best interest of our country that every child can read, write, etc., and have the opportunity to become what they are capable of becoming. IMO, the real fraud is when a particular school fails to live up to that promise.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2011 14:37:27 GMT -5
I worked registration and a son living with his mother (the grandmother) with his child came in. He had to have a signed lease from her (she didn't have to charge him more than $1). Then he had to get one utility in his name (she could pay it).
They told him how to make it work, but they have to enforce the rules equitably.
Remember that special education costs big $$$. The child you describe is not special ed. But if a parent could pick any school, a special ed. student could take major $$$ away from students whose parents pay taxes to go there.
Is that fair?
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Feb 24, 2011 14:38:24 GMT -5
"The government does run publicly funded institutions promising that every child has the right to an education."
They do. They do not guarantee that it will be in the condition that you would like it to be. They don't guarantee it will be composed of the ethnic makeup you would like it to be. They don't guarantee you can customize the school to be exactly as you would like. What they do is run publicly funded education promising that every child has the right to attend school and get an education. Simply becuase you don't happen to like the school that the publicly funded education system has given you, you don't have some entitlement to commit fraud to get what you want simply because you think you should have it.
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