billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Dec 16, 2014 19:04:25 GMT -5
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Dec 16, 2014 21:56:32 GMT -5
Wouldn't be the first time a majority was very wrong- but considering the kind of people that live in this country I am not surprised.
This says a lot:
www.amnestyusa.org/pdfs/GlobalSurveyAttitudesToTorture2014.pdf
The amount of similarity we have to third world countries is quite amazing since we are not one.
Just another national embarrassment in the long list of them.
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Post by b2r on Dec 16, 2014 23:39:16 GMT -5
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 17, 2014 0:33:30 GMT -5
the man is a complete boob. seriously. KSM gave his best stuff before he was ever tortured. everyone involved says so, except this idiot. and then, there is the fact that KSM was waterboarded 171 times because, you know, 168 was not enough? if this guy is personally responsible, and it sounds like he is, i will await the day that he is held for trial in Belguim while on vacation with his family, and sentenced for war crimes. i will celebrate that day. and the reason he is NOT in jail is that he was given immunity. he is lying left and right. and nobody is calling him on it.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Dec 17, 2014 1:18:59 GMT -5
Was reading about the guy that was sleep deprived and hung from the roof by his wrists for days, to the point they had to inject him with blood thinners to keep it going without killing him because of the blood pooling in his legs- and that the same guy had already been determined to have no actionable information.
EIT Nothing to see here.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Dec 17, 2014 1:22:01 GMT -5
I'm not backing down though- the problem is that this country in general is populated by people that think this is OK. I am sure the UK is glad they got rid of us- think of how fucked up their society would be with a bunch of assholes like us still around
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 17, 2014 1:24:20 GMT -5
Was reading about the guy that was sleep deprived and hung from the roof by his wrists for days, to the point they had to inject him with blood thinners to keep it going without killing him because of the blood pooling in his legs- and that the same guy had already been determined to have no actionable information.
EIT Nothing to see here.
i want this mother f(*ker to answer for the death of Dilawar. i want Cheney to answer for it. this guy was guilty of giving a taxi ride to a man who had nothing to do with AQ, 911, etc. a man who had a wife and two children depending on his income. his family never saw him again. he was held in captivity, tortured, and beaten until his legs were so pulpified that he essentially bled to death internally, hanging from his wrists. i want Cheney and the architects of this program- who are now proudly boasting of it's successes, to answer for its failures. until then, FOX and all the rest who give this guy a pass can go f)*k themselves. enhance that.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Dec 17, 2014 1:29:30 GMT -5
Related- 'ole Rush says that 'liberals hate America'
Nope- liberals are embarrassed that people like you represent anyone at all in the USA We don't hate America- we hate what you are trying to turn it into.
Anyone with a sense of decency would be appalled by the report. So apparently a minority
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Dec 17, 2014 1:51:07 GMT -5
These MFrs were doing shit to people they would not do to an animal. And that is how that happens- they dehumanize them in step one.
Can you imagine the outrage if they did this to our soldiers? History is being ignored.
And that smug piece of shit came out of the gate defending torture by bringing up 9/11
I would be willing to give Bush a pass- and he was lied to- I'd be fine if they 'EIT' Cheney until we can send a transplant team in there and give that heart to someone worthy. I can't think of a worse human being alive today with the amount of death and misery on their hands- maybe Assad?
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Dec 17, 2014 7:24:48 GMT -5
"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you."
Friedrich Nietzsche
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Dec 17, 2014 7:33:59 GMT -5
... They were looking out for the national interest as they saw it. ... Seems like that is a justification that could be used by many a national leader for many actions. The attack on Pearl Harbor comes to mind.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 17, 2014 11:26:48 GMT -5
Look, the man (Cheney) has a point. These people were and are monsters. They did the most heinous thing they could possibly dream up and accomplish, resulting in the greatest amount of human suffering possible. They are fiends and our mortal enemies. Of course we have a bit of antipathy for them. As Americans, we all remember what they did- and what they would do if they could.
who were monsters? the men we tortured? dem: have you seen "Taxi To The Dark Side?" few, if any, of the men we tortured were monsters. 86% of them were not even captured on the field of battle. those that were were largely ancillary to the Taliban: cooks and cabbies. very few of them had any links to terrorism at all. when all is said and done, you will be left with about two dozen men out of CLOSE TO 1000 PEOPLE who were imprisoned, held in indefinite detention (some have now been held for over a DECADE), in many cases abused, and about 10% of the time, MURDERED. who are the monsters, dem?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Dec 17, 2014 12:29:25 GMT -5
Look, the man (Cheney) has a point. These people were and are monsters. They did the most heinous thing they could possibly dream up and accomplish, resulting in the greatest amount of human suffering possible. They are fiends and our mortal enemies. Of course we have a bit of antipathy for them. As Americans, we all remember what they did- and what they would do if they could.
I hardly think he and the rest of his lot are in the same breath as Assad, S. Hussein, Kim Jong Moonbat, or other such thugs. They were looking out for the national interest as they saw it.
Where they fall down is that we are supposed to be better than this. In the scale of human governmental depravity hanging a few psychotic terrorists by their balls (and whatever else) is pretty low. However judged by the American Constitution, laws derived from it and our system of values what they sanctioned is somewhere between icky and heinous.
I feel somewhat badly for the people down the line who had to process and implement "The Program". The people on top- Cheney, Bush, etc., are supposed to know better, and be braver, than to succumb to what they did.
I'm also disappointed in the large amount of people who at this point feel that it was OK to do it. I don't often agree with McCain, but he is right on with this one.
I was actually surprised how broad American support is for the CIA torture program in spite of the scathing Senate report. The poll b2r posted shows 60% in favour to 30% not in favour, largely because Americans don't believe the program was as ineffectual as the report claims.
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Post by mmhmm on Dec 17, 2014 12:35:30 GMT -5
Look, the man (Cheney) has a point. These people were and are monsters. They did the most heinous thing they could possibly dream up and accomplish, resulting in the greatest amount of human suffering possible. They are fiends and our mortal enemies. Of course we have a bit of antipathy for them. As Americans, we all remember what they did- and what they would do if they could.
I hardly think he and the rest of his lot are in the same breath as Assad, S. Hussein, Kim Jong Moonbat, or other such thugs. They were looking out for the national interest as they saw it.
Where they fall down is that we are supposed to be better than this. In the scale of human governmental depravity hanging a few psychotic terrorists by their balls (and whatever else) is pretty low. However judged by the American Constitution, laws derived from it and our system of values what they sanctioned is somewhere between icky and heinous.
I feel somewhat badly for the people down the line who had to process and implement "The Program". The people on top- Cheney, Bush, etc., are supposed to know better, and be braver, than to succumb to what they did.
I'm also disappointed in the large amount of people who at this point feel that it was OK to do it. I don't often agree with McCain, but he is right on with this one.
I was actually surprised how broad American support is for the CIA torture program in spite of the scathing Senate report. The poll b2r posted shows 60% in favour to 30% not in favour, largely because Americans don't believe the program was as ineffectual as the report claims. I was surprised, as well, Virgil - surprised and sickened.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Dec 17, 2014 12:44:45 GMT -5
Look, the man (Cheney) has a point. These people were and are monsters. They did the most heinous thing they could possibly dream up and accomplish, resulting in the greatest amount of human suffering possible. They are fiends and our mortal enemies. Of course we have a bit of antipathy for them. As Americans, we all remember what they did- and what they would do if they could.
I hardly think he and the rest of his lot are in the same breath as Assad, S. Hussein, Kim Jong Moonbat, or other such thugs. They were looking out for the national interest as they saw it.
Where they fall down is that we are supposed to be better than this. In the scale of human governmental depravity hanging a few psychotic terrorists by their balls (and whatever else) is pretty low. However judged by the American Constitution, laws derived from it and our system of values what they sanctioned is somewhere between icky and heinous.
I feel somewhat badly for the people down the line who had to process and implement "The Program". The people on top- Cheney, Bush, etc., are supposed to know better, and be braver, than to succumb to what they did.
I'm also disappointed in the large amount of people who at this point feel that it was OK to do it. I don't often agree with McCain, but he is right on with this one.
I was actually surprised how broad American support is for the CIA torture program in spite of the scathing Senate report. The poll b2r posted shows 60% in favour to 30% not in favour, largely because Americans don't believe the program was as ineffectual as the report claims. The senate has a 14% approval rating. If the senate came out with a report that chocolate was delicious, the American public would strongly disagree.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Dec 17, 2014 13:03:00 GMT -5
I watched the full interview. It's an interesting "other side of the story". Although I don't agree with torture on principle, I could see why this would (at the very least) cast some doubt on the veracity of the Senate report.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2014 13:11:45 GMT -5
Look, the man (Cheney) has a point. These people were and are monsters. They did the most heinous thing they could possibly dream up and accomplish, resulting in the greatest amount of human suffering possible. They are fiends and our mortal enemies. Of course we have a bit of antipathy for them. As Americans, we all remember what they did- and what they would do if they could.
Have you taken a look at how many people the American military kills in other countries? Actually make it Western military. It is really bizarre to have not expected retaliation for that. To me it was not a surprise that 9/11 happened, but that it took so long too happen. These atrocious acts are as bad when "we" do them as when "they" do them.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2014 13:18:04 GMT -5
Have you taken a look at how many people the American military kills in other countries? Actually make it Western military. It is really bizarre to have not expected retaliation for that. To me it was not a surprise that 9/11 happened, but that it took so long too happen. These atrocious acts are as bad when "we" do them as when "they" do them. Yes, I understand that. I have long advocated that we "cut it out". Let the rest of the world defend themselves! American military policy is not about defending the rest of the world... That's the type of propaganda that has to be banished to have real and honest discussions about the issue.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2014 13:28:15 GMT -5
American military policy is not about defending the rest of the world... That's the type of propaganda that has to be banished to have real and honest discussions about the issue. Yeah, I know. But in the process of , um, defending our interests, we also defend our allies, who do span the globe. Noting I relish more than the thought of a thermonuclear war over Taiwan, or say Kharkov.
Unfortunately I don't have time to go deeply into this due to work, because of course we would have to discuss rather shortly into the conversation what we would do when our new foreign policy began to conflict with our economic system, and our expected standard of living. And it would.
And then we would be discussing why so many people were okay with the torture thing.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 17, 2014 13:53:54 GMT -5
I watched the full interview. It's an interesting "other side of the story". Although I don't agree with torture on principle, I could see why this would (at the very least) cast some doubt on the veracity of the Senate report. i see more reason to doubt the critics of the report. after all, they have a LOT more to lose.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 17, 2014 13:57:04 GMT -5
who were monsters? the men we tortured? dem: have you seen "Taxi To The Dark Side?" few, if any, of the men we tortured were monsters. 86% of them were not even captured on the field of battle. those that were were largely ancillary to the Taliban: cooks and cabbies. very few of them had any links to terrorism at all. when all is said and done, you will be left with about two dozen men out of CLOSE TO 1000 PEOPLE who were imprisoned, held in indefinite detention (some have now been held for over a DECADE), in many cases abused, and about 10% of the time, MURDERED. who are the monsters, dem? Some of the men we tortured were monsters, yes. Khalid sheik muhamed was a monster. The bunch they all represented were monsters.
Taxi to the Dark Side was an excellent film, and right on point for what we are discussing here.
I don't argue with you on the finer points of what you say. You maybe aren't reading closely to what I write. I do NOT support this program. I am observing the human condition, and trying to remain objective about it. In war stuff happens. As a country that supposedly values and protects human rights we are supposed to do our best to walk on the moral high ground. We failed. We failed because our leaders-failed to lead well.
At the end of the day though, it is done. In war stuff happens, and it did. All we can do now is examine it, try to ensure it doesn';t happen again, and learn from it. And somehow get through to the people who think it is OK. However it is thoroughly understandable why it happened.
What do you think a member of the Pakistani army near Peshawar might do to a Talibani right about now if given the chance? Yes, I think these people are MONSTERS.
Despite your entreaties, I won't put that on the people who ordered this "program". They were weak and stupid people, much dumber than they thought. Educated Fools. Criminal even. But not monsters.
Because of their errors, North Korea yesterday (not incorrectly) pointed out that the UN should be looking at American human rights abuses. We should not be giving our enemies that chance.
i am not a big fan of "stuff happens". there are two reasons why, in this case. the first is that we had fifty years of experience that told us that torture does not produce actionable intelligence. that is not really a subject for debate, but Cheney and others seem to think it is, which is kinda ridiculous. and worrisome. the second is that torture is wrong under all circumstances. if it is justified, then so is rape, killing of innocents, etc. i really don't care what your position is, dem. honest. the debate is separate from you, and separate from me. i am only arguing the points, not ad hominem.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2014 14:12:33 GMT -5
And then we would be discussing why so many people were okay with the torture thing. Maybe regarding some of them. I'm not sure many have thought it through in that kind of detail. Do you think? I think most people understand the benefits that go to the winners of war and the suffering of the losers and are okay with that, as long as they are on the winning side.
ETA - We are talking about the citizens of the only country to ever drop the atomic bomb. Yet when talking about 911 I bet it doesn't even enter the discussion. 9/11 is the worst atrocity, closing followed by Pearl Harbour.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 17, 2014 14:31:04 GMT -5
I am trying to be objective, and discuss this from an apolitical viewpoint. My position doesn't matter; nor does yours.
In the course of human endeavor these things happen. Repeatedly and almost continuously.
Torture, rape, killing of innocents, etc., may all be "wrong", but they happen, a lot. apologists for rape and torture use that same logic. please tell me that you are not doing that.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 17, 2014 14:31:44 GMT -5
And then we would be discussing why so many people were okay with the torture thing. Maybe regarding some of them. I'm not sure many have thought it through in that kind of detail. what justification would you give me for torturing some of them?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 17, 2014 15:19:19 GMT -5
apologists for rape and torture use that same logic. please tell me that you are not doing that. You are an engineer, correct? You went to school for engineering? You are trained to look at things in a dispassionate and objective way.
I went to school for a rather wonky sounding thing, but it was related to history, and in fact, I minored in that. We were taught to look at things in a similar way. It is difficult with a subject in the humanities, because we are dealing with things that people typically do have passionate opinions about.
I am not apologizing or agreeing with anything. I am trying (rather badly I see) to explain it.
i understand it fine. i am actually quite sympathetic to the guys who carried out the torture, in fact. but that does NOT mean i am sympathetic to the torture itself. could you answer the question i asked above? what is the justification for torturing "some of them"?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Dec 17, 2014 15:55:29 GMT -5
Do you think? I think most people understand the benefits that go to the winners of war and the suffering of the losers and are okay with that, as long as they are on the winning side.
ETA - We are talking about the citizens of the only country to ever drop the atomic bomb. Yet when talking about 911 I bet it doesn't even enter the discussion. 9/11 is the worst atrocity, closing followed by Pearl Harbour.
Dropping the atomic bomb.
This was a weapon that was being frantically developed by both sides during the war. This was a new and terrible weapon. It prevented the necessity to invade the home islands of Japan and prevented the loss of hundreds of thousands of lives, on both sides. It was dropped in the midst of a war in which 6 million Jews were slaughtered, 20 million Russians +- died, and 35 million had died. The firebombing of Dresden was just as deadly.
Was it not a rational decision to drop the bomb?
Rational is the process used to reach a decision. I certainly hope Truman used a rational process to make the decision to drop the bombs instead of doing it on a whim.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 17, 2014 16:02:28 GMT -5
I think you misunderstand the context of my reply, since there was a statement, a quoted response w/ question, reply, etc.
Later pointed out that the people who supported torture in the poll likely did so out of concern for their self interest- that perhaps if we did not take the role we do on the world stage, protecting the economic structure as it stands, we would not incite these acts against us, and yet realizing that our economic well being may suffer for not "ruling the waves", as it were. Since we need to protect our self interest, we need to fight these battles, and thus find ourselves in such dicey situations. Thus, perhaps they may support such torture to support the whole apparatus that helps allow us our standard of living.
I am reading some into what was implied between about four messages back and forth, but I think that's close.
Anyway, my response was that maybe SOME people supported the torture policy for those reasons, but that in my opinion that was thinking far too deeply about it for most of them. i think that anyone who says this program worked just has a really bad understanding of the program. but also, i think they not thinking clearly about what they mean by "worked". if i say that i just got through building a house, then describe to you how i did it by holding guns to the heads of children, i could rightly say that doing so "worked". but one would argue that i did not NEED to do that- that there were people who were willing to work, and needed the work, and would have done it without the gun to their heads. and, of course BOTH of those facts are true. when a torture proponent says that the program "worked", this is precisely the claim he is making. he is claiming that he got information. and that might be true. but that is not the standard that the Senate investigators used, nor is it the standard that any rational advocate OR observer of this system should use. that standard would be: would nothing MORE MORAL THAN THIS work just as well? and the answer to that is YES. the most strenuous objections to that line of reasoning come from those that say "we were in a hurry" and "we didn't have time". but what this report shows is that they were NOT in a hurry. one of the guys was thrown into solitary and asked no questions for 47 days to "soften him up". so, what we see here is that for every claim, there is evidence to the contrary. and that is precisely what the critics of this policy claimed would happen. there is a clear reason for why this was done, however. i get it. those reasons are very clear from watching Taxi to the Darkside. every American should see that film before they take these idiotic surveys. at least then, they would be somewhat informed, and have a very clear idea of what the contrasting view is on this subject. thanks for your time. this issue is important to me, so i took time from work to respond. but i have to go now.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2014 16:08:25 GMT -5
Do you think? I think most people understand the benefits that go to the winners of war and the suffering of the losers and are okay with that, as long as they are on the winning side.
ETA - We are talking about the citizens of the only country to ever drop the atomic bomb. Yet when talking about 911 I bet it doesn't even enter the discussion. 9/11 is the worst atrocity, closing followed by Pearl Harbour.
Dropping the atomic bomb.
This was a weapon that was being frantically developed by both sides during the war. This was a new and terrible weapon. It prevented the necessity to invade the home islands of Japan and prevented the loss of hundreds of thousands of lives, on both sides. It was dropped in the midst of a war in which 6 million Jews were slaughtered, 20 million Russians +- died, and 35 million had died. The firebombing of Dresden was just as deadly.
Was it not a rational decision to drop the bomb?
The Jews and Russians were already safe, victory had already been declared with Germany. (Thank you New Orleans war museum) The 2 bombs killed at least 129,000 Japanese, most of whom were civilians, and left radiation poisoning for generations to come. This was in retaliation for 2,403 deaths at Pearl Harbour. If dropping the atom bomb is considered rational then so was 9/11.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Dec 17, 2014 16:25:20 GMT -5
In the end it was either a rational or an irrational decision. Was it rational? Was it a decision that one can build an argument for that many would find justified the action taken? I think so for the first one. I have read some discussion which brings the justification for the second into question. I do think that Truman likely used a rational process to make the decision both times. Rational is process, not the decision.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2014 16:26:27 GMT -5
The Jews and Russians were already safe, victory had already been declared with Germany. (Thank you New Orleans war museum) The 2 bombs killed at least 129,000 Japanese, most of whom were civilians, and left radiation poisoning for generations to come. This was in retaliation for 2,403 deaths at Pearl Harbour. If dropping the atom bomb is considered rational then so was 9/11. What about the hundreds of thousands of lives SAVED by not having to invade Japan? While most of the casualties would have been Japanese as well (projected to be far more that 129,000) There were also expected to be over 100,000 American casualties.
Also- I am not aware of any evidence that this was in any way retaliation for Pearl Harbor. I am curious, where are you getting that from?
Pearl Harbour was the event that propelled you guys into WWII. Gotta go for now. BBL
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