Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Dec 10, 2014 12:36:36 GMT -5
The pardons were preemptive. I have it in my heap o' bookmarks somewhere and can't find it now, but Pres. Bush et al. passed laws before they left office indemnifying them from prosecution for war crimes, including authorization of torture. I remember it clearly because the media essentially buried the story (it was all about "Hope and Change" in those days), but even some prominent Republicans were making hay about "How on Earth is Pres. Bush allowed to do this?" Let's just say that if any trials take place, they won't take place in the US. i remember that, but i am not sure how broad the coverage is, and i am not sure that another law, or a challenge in the courts could not overturn it. Possibly, but by the time the US reaches a state where you have an executive branch willing to pursue prosecution, a legislative branch willing to let it proceed unobstructed, and a judicial system that will entertain a decade-long legal crusade to repudiate existing laws, Pres. Bush and any co-conspirators will have been dead for approximately eight centuries and the point will be somewhat moot.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 10, 2014 12:39:57 GMT -5
i remember that, but i am not sure how broad the coverage is, and i am not sure that another law, or a challenge in the courts could not overturn it. Possibly, but by the time the US reaches a state where you have an executive branch willing to pursue prosecution, a legislative branch willing to let it proceed unobstructed, and a judicial system that will entertain a decade-long legal crusade to repudiate existing laws, Pres. Bush and any co-conspirators will have been dead for approximately eight centuries and the point will be somewhat moot. would it surprise you to learn that i don't share your cynicism? seriously, tho.....i doubt this will ever go to trial. so what does that leave?
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Dec 10, 2014 12:43:16 GMT -5
so, the question is now: WHAT HAPPENS NEXT? any guesses? trials? nothing? presidential pardons? Well, at the moment the CIA is out in force defending their actions on the talking head shows. I saw the general who was in charge of the CIA during the 2006 - 2007 on MSNBC this AM (sorry, didn't pay attention to his name) and he claims the CIA did nothing that didn't have the express permission by the AG, the president and congress. He claims Feinstein was present in the 2007 meeting where he handed around a list of the people who had been "questioned" along with the techniques used, so every person present knew exactly what was happening. I suspect when the CIA listed which 'techniques' were being used, they might not have been overly detailed in the description. He didn't comment on whether or not these techniques actually garnered any useful info, but he did say that this study will make every CIA officer in the field become more timid and reluctant to do anything 'edgy.' Which sounds like a spendid outcome, to me.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 10, 2014 12:52:22 GMT -5
so, the question is now: WHAT HAPPENS NEXT? any guesses? trials? nothing? presidential pardons? Well, at the moment the CIA is out in force defending their actions on the talking head shows. i hope that some of them point out that they (or their serrogates) were on the shows before making a case for torture in the first place. they were dead wrong then, and should not be believed now.I saw the general who was in charge of the CIA during the 2006 - 2007 on MSNBC this AM (sorry, didn't pay attention to his name) and he claims the CIA did nothing that didn't have the express permission by the AG, the legal framework for this is somewhere between dubious and non-existent at this point. that has been known for years. again, i hope some shows are well enough prepared for that case that they point that out.the president and congress. Bush and the CIA were basically telling Congress that they were NOT torturing. and this is AT THE TIME that their internal memos called it torture. so, they were....LYING. there is not another way of putting it. they knew it was torture, and they said it was not torture. i can't really imagine how congress "knew" that they were torturing when they claimed they were not torturing.He claims Feinstein was present in the 2007 meeting where he handed around a list of the people who had been "questioned" along with the techniques used, so every person present knew exactly what was happening. i am sure that was true....in 2007. but the torture started in 2002. the case for it was already being made in November of 2001.I suspect when the CIA listed which 'techniques' were being used, they might not have been overly detailed in the description. even if they were, this is an "ex post facto" defense.He didn't comment on whether or not these techniques actually garnered any useful info, but he did say that this study will make every CIA officer in the field become more timid and reluctant to do anything 'edgy.' how about "stupid". that term works. the CIA declared in 1978 that torture was not effective. they made the same claim in 1989. then, all of the sudden, in 2001, they said "how can we do torture?". i find it inconceivable that this did not come from the WH and work it's way to the CIA, but it matters little. they knew better at one point in time, and they conveniently forgot.Which sounds like a spendid (sic) outcome, to me. reluctance doesn't translate to "criminal liability". that is what i am hoping for, here.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Dec 10, 2014 16:19:13 GMT -5
I'm really surprised Bush didn't listen more to McCain. I know McCain can be a douche and hold grudges, but he knows about war and torture. I don't know whether McCain refused to try to talk to him, because of past rivalries, or whether Bush just didn't ask.
That was one of the things I really hated about Bush - he depended so heavily on his small group of advisors to the exlusion of everyone else, and in many cases, they led him, blissfully ignorant, down the wrong garden path. Good luck nailing anything on Cheney, though.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 10, 2014 19:04:08 GMT -5
I'm really surprised Bush didn't listen more to McCain. I know McCain can be a douche and hold grudges, but he knows about war and torture. I don't know whether McCain refused to try to talk to him, because of past rivalries, or whether Bush just didn't ask. That was one of the things I really hated about Bush - he depended so heavily on his small group of advisors to the exlusion of everyone else, and in many cases, they led him, blissfully ignorant, down the wrong garden path. Good luck nailing anything on Cheney, though. hopefully, that useless piece of human garbage (or whatever phrasing Paul used) will be gone soon, so i can stop imagining what horrors he is unleashing on the world.
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b2r
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Post by b2r on Dec 10, 2014 19:09:13 GMT -5
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 10, 2014 19:45:11 GMT -5
he is not only a lying bastard, he is completely delusional. it would take me HOURS to tell you everything wrong with this interview, but i will just give you my 10 minutes, then i have to leave. first of all, the fact that the CIA did exactly what it was told to do in no way justifies the program. if i were to tell a group of untrained people (and yes, the CIA have no torture training, since they stopped using it as an interrogation tactic in 1978, and all manuals were destroyed) to use whatever techniques were necessary to get information out of KNOWN terrorists in the shortest amount of time, that is an atrocity generating situation. this is precisely what Cheney and Bush set up. i did find the fact that both he and Bush were "fully informed" of these atrocities rather interesting. that makes them highly culpable for the deaths of innocents at the hands of personnel that were apparently acting under DIRECT ORDERS from them. that's good to know. so it is not merely criminal negligence, which is maybe a few years behind bars, but a capital offense. he comparison to Iran Contra was actually rather revealing as well- an enterprise in which drugs were traded for money to buy arms for a group that Congress would not allow to be supplied with weapons. i really do think that what was done here is on par with that- which is certainly amongst the most immoral enterprises ever undertaken by a president in the history of the US. his laughing little bit about KSM is also quite revealing. KSM gave up the best information he was going to give before they tortured him. that man was waterborded something like 170 times, because, you know 10 wasn't enough, and neither was 100. nobody who knows that case believes that anything of value came out of the waterboarding, but here Cheney is calling it a success.....again. the only proper thing to do is to deprive Dick of his vocal cords at this point. he has long ago lost whatever credibility to speak on this subject that he once had. he should no longer be taken seriously. any agency that DOES take him seriously is, itself, a joke. he was wrong on everything, and he is still wrong.
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b2r
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Post by b2r on Dec 10, 2014 20:25:16 GMT -5
The Senate Intelligence Committee has released its majority report on Central Intelligence Agency detention and interrogation in the wake of 9/11. The following response is from former CIA Directors George J. Tenet, Porter J. Goss and Michael V. Hayden (a retired Air Force general), and former CIA Deputy Directors John E. McLaughlin, Albert M. Calland (a retired Navy vice admiral) and Stephen R. Kappes : www.wsj.com/articles/cia-interrogations-saved-lives-1418142644
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b2r
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Post by b2r on Dec 10, 2014 20:27:19 GMT -5
Senator Feinstein tortures America every time she speaks!
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Post by b2r on Dec 10, 2014 21:12:39 GMT -5
Ed Henry Grills Earnest: Where Does WH Get ‘Moral Authority’ to Condemn Torture?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2014 21:52:50 GMT -5
"Senate Intelligence Committee" an oxymoron if ever there was one.
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Post by OldCoyote on Dec 10, 2014 22:22:48 GMT -5
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Ryan
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Post by Ryan on Dec 10, 2014 22:34:40 GMT -5
1) Realistically, they probably just torture people so they can take out some pent-up aggression towards terrorists. They figure, if it works, great...kill 2 birds with 1 stone. If it doesn't, at least they got to beat up a terrorist.
2) I heard the head of the CIA (I think) say that they did something like rectal feedings (or something like that) so they can give the detainee proper nutrients instead of through normal methods. I couldn't believe he was saying that with a straight face.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 11, 2014 0:48:37 GMT -5
Ed Henry Grills Earnest: Where Does WH Get ‘Moral Authority’ to Condemn Torture? the same place any of us does: from simply acknowledging the difference between right and wrong.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 11, 2014 0:49:23 GMT -5
"Senate Intelligence Committee" an oxymoron if ever there was one. you think it is stupid now? just wait until January. however, i think this report is basically spot on.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 11, 2014 0:52:40 GMT -5
Do you really think that there is real truth to this report? yes. don't you?Do you think anything is going to change, Do you really think that the CIA is not interrogating someone in some hellhole somewhere in the world right now? They did not accidently died during questioning? probably not. but here is the thing. doing so with the blessing and encouragement of the WH is TOTALLY DIFFERENT than doing so off the grid, without authorization, etc. in one case, you are doing so in your name alone. in the other, you are doing it in MY name.Do you really think that justice will be served to all that tortured beyond the agreement or lied to Congress? the people who were just released from Bagram would still be there if not for this report. is that answer enough?Nope, just business as usual. i am pretty confident that there was VERY LITTLE torture done between 1978 and 2002. if we can go back to THAT, i will be well pleased.Mark Udall, They are lying to us and he should know! www.nationaljournal.com/congress/sen-mark-udall-bashing-cia-reveals-classified-findings-on-interrogation-program-20141210 i think there is reason to be happy that this report came out, and i DO think it can do some good.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 11, 2014 0:54:31 GMT -5
1) Realistically, they probably just torture people so they can take out some pent-up aggression towards terrorists. They figure, if it works, great...kill 2 birds with 1 stone. If it doesn't, at least they got to beat up a terrorist. that is not what happened here, imo. are you familiar with the 1% doctrine? i think that is what started it. this is the "real world" consequence of a very bad policy. you stop the policy, and you stop the consequence.2) I heard the head of the CIA (I think) say that they did something like rectal feedings (or something like that) so they can give the detainee proper nutrients instead of through normal methods. I couldn't believe he was saying that with a straight face. me neither. it is torture. plain and simple. that man is either profoundly ignorant, or a liar. perhaps both.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 11, 2014 0:58:11 GMT -5
The Senate Intelligence Committee has released its majority report on Central Intelligence Agency detention and interrogation in the wake of 9/11. The following response is from former CIA Directors George J. Tenet, Porter J. Goss and Michael V. Hayden (a retired Air Force general), and former CIA Deputy Directors John E. McLaughlin, Albert M. Calland (a retired Navy vice admiral) and Stephen R. Kappes : www.wsj.com/articles/cia-interrogations-saved-lives-1418142644 this is the thing: how do you give a balanced report when one side of the argument is completely wrong? giving equal airtime to WRONG arguments is stupid. we should stop doing that. it is lowering our national IQ.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 11, 2014 1:02:40 GMT -5
Senator Feinstein tortures America every time she speaks! kindof agree with you there, but the committee did a good job on this report, and a great service to America by putting it out.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Dec 11, 2014 8:03:39 GMT -5
Do you really think that there is real truth to this report? yes. don't you?Do you think anything is going to change, Do you really think that the CIA is not interrogating someone in some hellhole somewhere in the world right now? They did not accidently died during questioning? probably not. but here is the thing. doing so with the blessing and encouragement of the WH is TOTALLY DIFFERENT than doing so off the grid, without authorization, etc. in one case, you are doing so in your name alone. in the other, you are doing it in MY name.Do you really think that justice will be served to all that tortured beyond the agreement or lied to Congress? the people who were just released from Bagram would still be there if not for this report. is that answer enough?Nope, just business as usual. i am pretty confident that there was VERY LITTLE torture done between 1978 and 2002. if we can go back to THAT, i will be well pleased.Mark Udall, They are lying to us and he should know! www.nationaljournal.com/congress/sen-mark-udall-bashing-cia-reveals-classified-findings-on-interrogation-program-20141210 i think there is reason to be happy that this report came out, and i DO think it can do some good. DJ, I thought that a large part was redacted, Meaning the real ugly parts were not included.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 11, 2014 12:29:56 GMT -5
i think there is reason to be happy that this report came out, and i DO think it can do some good. DJ, I thought that a large part was redacted, Meaning the real ugly parts were not included. that is what i thought, too. but it turns out that what was published was the SUMMARY. and it is MOSTLY there. so yes, there is a lot missing, but what is there is quite important, and relevant, and accurate. look, i have followed this very closely for a long time. this report does not show that prisoners were beaten to death (they were). it does not show that over 100 were killed (they were). it DOES, however, show that 80-90% of those imprisoned were innocent. it shows that this was a SYSTEM, not a few incidents. and it shows me something i didn't really realize: that they were basically making this shit up as they went along. that last part was surprising. for a bunch of business guys, this thing was very unbusinesslike. i expected something more...well, GERMAN, for lack of a better term. more well planned and carried out. but the atrocities make sense in the context of a sloppy execution, as well. they are just not as damning as the carefully planned variety.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Dec 15, 2014 12:16:14 GMT -5
He is late to the defense- our RW radio refers to it exclusively as EIT's. The torture thing is a democratic plot.
They even went so far to explain how our waterboarding was not the same waterboarding which is torture- ours was just psychological not physical
And of course the Cheney refrain- 9/11 was torture so that makes it ok I guess.
Just another war criminal in my book.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 15, 2014 15:02:06 GMT -5
Vice President Richard Cheney was on Meet the Press yesterday, and he explained everything.
First of all, the whole report was a bunch of total bull sh-t, which he said couldn't actually say, because it was a family oriented show. So he strongly hinted it. What we did was NOT torture. What was torture was flying planes into towers and killing 3,000 innocent Americans. ISIL does not bother with torture, as they simply cut our heads off. The program (enhanced interrogations) worked, and worked well. We should resume it, and end ISIL's head cutting ways. Any questionable acts, such as pulpifying legs, were done "outside" the program. All of the people who courageously worked the Program are brave heroes, who are now being vilified by pinko anti-American scum. What we did was NOT torture. What was torture was flying planes into towers and killing 3,000 innocent Americans. What we did was NOT torture. What was torture was flying planes into towers and killing 3,000 innocent Americans.
Love him or hate him, old Dick still has it.
if by "it" you mean an utter lack of moral compass, and the ability to prevaricate without any sense of remorse, then yes, he has it.
Meanwhile, in Texas, Dubya said "Heh. Heh, heh."
To which Gov. Goodhair replied "Oops!" that's an interesting narrative, but it is 100% wrong. do you want me to dissect it point by point, or will you simply accept that fact without me having to break a nail?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 15, 2014 15:03:07 GMT -5
He is late to the defense- our RW radio refers to it exclusively as EIT's. The torture thing is a democratic plot.
They even went so far to explain how our waterboarding was not the same waterboarding which is torture- ours was just psychological not physical
And of course the Cheney refrain- 9/11 was torture so that makes it ok I guess.
Just another war criminal in my book. actually, if you read the report, which for some reason i doubt Cheney did, the CIA ITSELF refers to the methods as torture. why the media is not having a field day with that fact is beyond me. only radical lefties seem to have picked up on it.
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 15, 2014 17:28:21 GMT -5
No need. I usually read the paper while MTP drones in the background (in the winter anyway, in the summer there are more useful things to do!) This dialogue however had me mesmerized however. They came up with the word chutzpah for this man.
And this isn't 100% wrong. Perry really did say "oops". did he, now? hehe. edit: my nails thank you.
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b2r
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Post by b2r on Dec 16, 2014 17:46:08 GMT -5
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Post by b2r on Dec 16, 2014 17:47:37 GMT -5
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 16, 2014 17:52:22 GMT -5
they are wrong on the facts. if they were right on the facts, they would not think it was justified. but this is a very interesting result: people think that immoral actions are justified. Milgram's 37
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 16, 2014 17:53:29 GMT -5
mitchell is a fucking idiot, imo. i would spend more time talking about it, but i don't have any more today.
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