tractor
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Post by tractor on Apr 3, 2014 18:42:50 GMT -5
I know the eighth amendment protects us from "cruel and unusual punishment" but it you tortured someone, or multiple people in cruel and unusual ways, ultimately resulting in their substantial suffering and death, why can't we do the same to you?
This is a spinoff from all the recent lethal injection cases claiming that they are protected under the eight amendment. I'm sure those on death row weren't too concerned about their victims eighth amendment rights when they were killing them.
Maybe they just need to bring back firing squads, I'd volunteer to help a couple of weekends a month.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Apr 3, 2014 18:49:17 GMT -5
The eighth amendment protects you from the government's infliction of cruel and unusual punishment. It does not govern one citizen's interaction with another (although there are laws in place which punish murder, torture, etc.) Unless the person on death row was acting on the government's behalf when s/he committed murder, the eighth amendment doesn't come into play.
Much like the first amendment prohibits the government from infringing upon your right to free speech. It does not stop your employer from firing you for an objectionable Facebook post, for example.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2014 18:51:34 GMT -5
Being sent home to live with God is a reward. Being forced to live in a tiny cell is punishment.
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Apr 3, 2014 18:56:23 GMT -5
Being sent home to live with God is a reward. Being forced to live in a tiny cell is punishment. If you believe in a God, then you must surely believe that there's also a Hell - what makes you think they're being sent home to live with God? Maybe their ultimate punishment in death is an eternity spent with Satan.
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tractor
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Post by tractor on Apr 3, 2014 18:59:09 GMT -5
Being sent home to live with God is a reward. Being forced to live in a tiny cell is punishment. I'd like to think it accelerates their visit to Hell, I'm all for that.
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tractor
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Post by tractor on Apr 3, 2014 19:02:07 GMT -5
Interesting Mid,
However in most of these cases, no one ever said it only applies to those who represent the government. I believe there is even a pending case where the surviving family members are trying to sue the state because they believe their loved one suffered too much by the use of lethal injection.
No one ever seems to remember how much the victim suffered.
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whoami
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Post by whoami on Apr 3, 2014 19:13:53 GMT -5
I don't think as a society, lowering ourselves to the level of criminal acts as retaliation is a particularly good policy to engage in.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2014 19:18:46 GMT -5
Being sent home to live with God is a reward. Being forced to live in a tiny cell is punishment. If you believe in a God, then you must surely believe that there's also a Hell - what makes you think they're being sent home to live with God? Maybe their ultimate punishment in death is an eternity spent with Satan.My God would not create a hell.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2014 19:25:21 GMT -5
The only hell I believe in is the one we will bring upon ourselves, after death, as we recall and repent over the pain we've caused others here in this life.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Apr 3, 2014 19:29:13 GMT -5
Interesting Mid, However in most of these cases, no one ever said it only applies to those who represent the government. I believe there is even a pending case where the surviving family members are trying to sue the state because they believe their loved one suffered too much by the use of lethal injection.No one ever seems to remember how much the victim suffered. Yes, because the eighth amendment does not come into play when one layperson kills another layperson. Only when the government engages in "cruel and unusual punishment" of its citizens. Two wrongs don't make a right.
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tractor
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Post by tractor on Apr 3, 2014 19:33:25 GMT -5
I can respect that lone, either way death of a killer would accelerate their transition into eternal suffering, seems like a fair trade off.
Mid,
I see your point, just something I'm trying to ponder tonight, it doesn't mean I will ever understand it.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Apr 3, 2014 19:58:16 GMT -5
I don't think as a society, lowering ourselves to the level of criminal acts as retaliation is a particularly good policy to engage in. Yeah this.
And, I'm not sure how I feel about someone (not connected to the crime) who could, even in the name of Justice or Fairness, inflict a such a 'reciprocated' death on someone.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Apr 3, 2014 20:00:48 GMT -5
I am a full-fledged death penalty opponent but even I think that the arguments sometimes presented by the defense teams are weak. A few years back (really don't remember the exact date) one defense team came up with the "we can't import the drugs because they are not FDA approved". Now they are desparate to find out who in the US is producing the drugs used in Texas for the death penalty. Or a defense team claims that "Johnny" is too fat to be put to death and on and on...
These arguments are make me go "why does it matter". Dead is dead and, if that is what we as a society want to do (my opinion has been stated above), then we need to stop whining and just do it. There are many fast and efficient ways to kill a person - the guilotine comes to mind - but we don't have what it takes to do that.
As for the "cruel and unusual punishment" limitations to what government can and cannot do we have to keep in mind that if you take the worst punishment out, the next one from the bottom will become the "cruel and unusual punishment".
Still I really wish government would stop killing in "my" name (we the people)
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Apr 3, 2014 20:12:57 GMT -5
I often wonder what kind of 'comfort' or 'satisfaction' the death penalty gives to the family(s) of the victims.
No one ever seems to mention the people who might have loved the death row inmate (family? friends?). They are 'victims' of a sort in this as well.
Meant to add I'm pro-death penalty. The world (or people's lives) is/are sometimes better off with out some people.
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tractor
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Post by tractor on Apr 3, 2014 20:32:42 GMT -5
I think as a society we all recognize that we have evil around us. What we do to respond to that evil is a personal choice. Some embrace it, some defend it, some ignore it, and some fight back against it.
I know there will never be an answer that fits every situation, or every personal belief, but it doesn't mean we can't discuss it.
Thanks for providing some introspective discussion.
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Apr 3, 2014 20:47:56 GMT -5
The comfort may not be enough - but it's enough of a relief for the families of murdered family members or friends to know the assailant no longer walks the earth or has a chance of parole to possibly re-offend - killing someone else's family member.
As for the family/friends of the murderer, do you not think they're suffering as well? Knowing that their relative or friend could commit such a horrendous crime as taking someone else's life must weigh heavy on most of them.
I'm no doubt sure that they have to deal with their own demons because of what their brother/sister//child/parent or friend did. They probably feel partiallly responsible - a case of guilt by association.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Apr 3, 2014 21:50:16 GMT -5
The comfort may not be enough - but it's enough of a relief for the families of murdered family members or friends to know the assailant no longer walks the earth or has a chance of parole to possibly re-offend - killing someone else's family member.
As for the family/friends of the murderer, do you not think they're suffering as well? Knowing that their relative or friend could commit such a horrendous crime as taking someone else's life must weigh heavy on most of them.
I'm no doubt sure that they have to deal with their own demons because of what their brother/sister//child/parent or friend did. They probably feel partiallly responsible - a case of guilt by association. I totally agree with everything you've said. I get that. I guess I should have been more clear.
Basically I was pondering how someone personally connected to the crime/criminal feels about what kind of death is delivered?
I sometimes wonder when someone is all gung ho about inflicting some terrible form of death on a criminal (not that that is the topic of THIS thread!) if they would still be so gung ho if it was someone related to them. Not that they would all of a sudden be "no, no, the person I love doesn't deserve death!" but maybe they'd be alittle less vocal, less emphatic about the manner in which that family member should die....
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 3, 2014 22:25:07 GMT -5
The problem with inflicting cruel and/or unusual punishment on someone is really the same problem as the death penalty. It's all well and good when we all assume the person we're doing it to actually was guilty of the crime. It's probably less acceptable when we find out the person we tortured for his crimes in a cruel way was actually innocent the entire time...oops...sorry guy...our bad. With the death penalty, we may have killed the wrong person, but I think a lot of people would rather be dead than tortured continuously.
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Sam_2.0
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Post by Sam_2.0 on Apr 3, 2014 23:05:38 GMT -5
They can make pills that cause nearly instant death. Think the guy who took them in court upon reading of his guilty verdict. Let's make those available to people on death row. They can go on their own time and no one has to watch or administer the drugs.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using proboards
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cronewitch
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Post by cronewitch on Apr 4, 2014 3:17:00 GMT -5
I think of the monsters as the same as a mad dog. If a dog is bad, say tears off a face of someone we put them to sleep. If posible we have something injected in the vain like we would for a beloved pet. Hospitals put people to sleep for surgery so it would be easy to put a IV port in then when it was time put something in the IV, they could even do it at night when the person was asleep so they didn't have to know when it was to be.
No reason for society to be cruel we just need them removed. Many drugs will kill just makes sure to use something that won't leave them alive. Whatever they use at the pound to put down pets should work just use 10X what you would use on a 80lb dog.
We kill cattle, chickens, fish and all kinds of beings all the time, they all feel it but we do the best we can to make it quick. Death penalty people should have the same treatment.
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tractor
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Post by tractor on Apr 4, 2014 5:58:16 GMT -5
Good point Crone,
Do they use any kind of an anesthesiologist before the administer a lethal dose? I wonder if the convicted one really feels anything during their departure?
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tractor
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Post by tractor on Apr 4, 2014 6:01:17 GMT -5
I would think lethal injection would be more humane than firing squad. I think that's why the firing squad, hanging, electrocution etc., are not used anymore. Lethal injection was the way to go for the past few years, but it seems it too is on it's way out. At some point there will have to be another alternative.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Apr 4, 2014 6:09:01 GMT -5
I would think lethal injection would be more humane than firing squad. Depends on the drugs used and the skill of the marksmen. A bullet to the brain stem causes instaneous death. Lethal injection takes about a minute to cause death. They're also given drugs to cause unconsciousness so in theory they don't feel pain during the minute.
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achelois
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Post by achelois on Apr 4, 2014 6:42:43 GMT -5
When drugs are used for lethal injection, they are essentially the same ones used to put you to sleep for surgery.
If you didn't experience pain when you went to sleep for an operation, neither would the condemned person.
Anesthesia providers are there for surgery because it is much better for everyone if the patient is kept alive whenever possible. Not necessary for a condemned person. Don't know how anesthesia providers could, ethically, deliberately kill someone. Would violate their entire raison d'être.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Apr 4, 2014 6:52:22 GMT -5
I think we just need to go back to the firing squad. Some people's actions on this planet are so heinous they are absolutely worthy of death.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2014 8:03:58 GMT -5
I am a bleeding heart liberal, so I am against the death penalty.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Apr 4, 2014 8:24:00 GMT -5
I am a conservative, so I want to see the bleeding hearts of child killers bleeding all over the ground.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2014 8:26:10 GMT -5
I am a conservative, so I want to see the bleeding hearts of child killers bleeding all over the ground. My delicate constitution could not handle that.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2014 8:40:43 GMT -5
It used to be that we wanted to divide the world into good guys and bad guys. And good guys don't didn't do evil things no matter how severely they were provoked. It's what made them the good guys. Then for some reason that philosphy came to be thought of as weak. These days there is a push for an acceptance of many more shades of gray. We embrace the idea that good guys can be excused for doing evil things for "the right reason" or if they are appropriately provoked. We come up with nuanced myths that explain why someone we would have previously categorised as a bad guy is really just misunderstood. we are going back to a philosphy of might is right.
Just to clarify, I am summarising the attitudes I have observed in my own lifetime. I could do a whole spiel about how out of control things got when "an eye for an eye" was the accepted justice for transgressions. It lead to never ending feuds. Most of us prefer to live in a less violent society.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Apr 9, 2014 2:23:09 GMT -5
I would think lethal injection would be more humane than firing squad. Depends on the drugs used and the skill of the marksmen. A bullet to the brain stem causes instaneous death. Lethal injection takes about a minute to cause death. They're also given drugs to cause unconsciousness so in theory they don't feel pain during the minute. In that case, wouldn't a guillotine be even better?
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