rockon
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Post by rockon on Mar 1, 2011 9:09:21 GMT -5
Dez, I think we both advocate for the same result but you seem to think that it would be best if a single party had complete control over politics and the opposition were eliminated from any power position. This in my estimation would be worse case situation and would result in a dictatorship or monopoly and we saw a little bit of the effect over the last two years. No sir, I would support more political parties to break up the power that our current two party system has but completely agree with your suggestion that politics need to be put aside and we must concentrate on some select problems that can be fixed for the betterment of all. Unfortunately the first and most obvious seems to be spending cuts that will have to affect everyone to some degree and as we are seeing they will be very controversial and it will be almost impossible to avoid having politics drug into the conversation. Independents have to move away from using their voting power to simple transfer power from one party or the other and use their vote to create competition for the current two parties.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Mar 1, 2011 15:35:30 GMT -5
<<< Independents have to move away from using their voting power to simple transfer power from one party or the other and use their vote to create competition for the current two parties. >>> ...rock on!
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Mar 1, 2011 15:51:28 GMT -5
Dez, I think we both advocate for the same result but you seem to think that it would be best if a single party had complete control over politics and the opposition were eliminated from any power position. This in my estimation would be worse case situation and would result in a dictatorship or monopoly and we saw a little bit of the effect over the last two years. No sir, I would support more political parties to break up the power that our current two party system has but completely agree with your suggestion that politics need to be put aside and we must concentrate on some select problems that can be fixed for the betterment of all. Unfortunately the first and most obvious seems to be spending cuts that will have to affect everyone to some degree and as we are seeing they will be very controversial and it will be almost impossible to avoid having politics drug into the conversation. Independents have to move away from using their voting power to simple transfer power from one party or the other and use their vote to create competition for the current two parties. Rock I agree with most of what you posted here, though were you got the feeling "it would be best if a single party had complete control over politics and the opposition were eliminated from any power position" I am not sure, and believe me I don't feel that way. I was up set with the Republicans in the first two years of the Obama reign for opting out of the process. yes the Democrats were in charge but being Democrats, unlike the republicans who seem to march to a mostly single drummer on most things with little variations versus Democrats who are all over the place with many sized drums. because they represent different extremes, ultra left to middle left a bit to the right in some cases. In the first two years of Obamas reign they could have had a big influence, moderating those extreme Democrats who had to be coddled and kowtowed to for their support thus on some legislation, thinking stimulus, banking reform and yes Obama care, we could have gotten better bills then we did, but by their sitting out, party of "No " and all that yadda, yadda, the country suffered. My feeling , more interested in attempting to make a major government change then the care of the country.
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Mar 1, 2011 16:11:34 GMT -5
I am not sure, and believe me I don't feel that way. I was up set with the Republicans in the first two years of the Obama reign for opting out of the process..... lmao...the liberals really have you hook, line and sinker on the propaganda, eh Dezi? BTW...for a good majority of the filibuster proof majority, repubs didn't opt out of the process, they were shut out and told to go sit in the back.
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rockon
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Post by rockon on Mar 1, 2011 16:17:41 GMT -5
So if we can get the majority to agree that spending cuts are not only essential but critical how do we move this process forward with out the normal politics or accusations of politics since almost every spending cut will involve someone or some entity that either supports one or the other party and as soon as there is mention of a reduction the other side will claim it is politically motivated and try to score political points by showing how important this specific area is and how callous and ruthless the others are for even considering a cut for them. Both sides play the same game and anyone who consistently defends one party and constantly bashes the other is the perfect puppet for their play book.
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Mar 1, 2011 16:24:13 GMT -5
Both sides play the same game and anyone who consistently defends one party and constantly bashes the other is the perfect puppet for their play book. That's the reason real cuts will never happen rockon. Neither side wants to bite the hand that lines the pockets.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Mar 1, 2011 16:27:32 GMT -5
That's the reason real cuts will never happen rockon. Neither side wants to bite the hand that lines the pockets.
The left's power base is those on entitlement programs and public employee unions. The right's constituency is the middle class and those who start business' and provide jobs and economic growth.
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verrip1
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Post by verrip1 on Mar 1, 2011 16:40:57 GMT -5
Libs will not support cuts to their bloated God, government. Ever. They will howl at the full moon and create enemies for one purpose, to take their money to feed their engorged Diety. Their only answer to economic problems is to throw other peoples' money at them. While bewailing cuts in spending, their only story is 'more revenues'.
That's fine. People who want to solve the problem will have to find ways around the obstacles. State Senate Dems in Wisconsin hide from votes to cut benefits? Fine. Start the layoffs. If that's what they want, give it to them.
Spending reductions will occur. Anybody who stands in the way of it will get their comeuppance next election. Dems or Reps. Along the way, institutions with their heads up their butts like unions will make themselves as antiquated as buggy whips. So apropos.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Mar 1, 2011 18:00:45 GMT -5
I am not sure, and believe me I don't feel that way. I was up set with the Republicans in the first two years of the Obama reign for opting out of the process..... lmao...the liberals really have you hook, line and sinker on the propaganda, eh Dezi? BTW...for a good majority of the filibuster proof majority, repubs didn't opt out of the process, they were shut out and told to go sit in the back. How many times do I have to tell you...middle to the left, middle to the left.{sheesh}
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Mar 1, 2011 18:04:56 GMT -5
That's the reason real cuts will never happen rockon. Neither side wants to bite the hand that lines the pockets.The left's power base is those on entitlement programs and public employee unions. The right's constituency is the middle class and those who start business' and provide jobs and economic growth. Wrong...the wealthy who are laughing at the stupidity of the populace who come to their defense to have them keep even more of their wealth as it continues to grow in $ and % increase way out of the norm as those who are defending them find their holdings decreasing, decreasing , decreasing at the same time...yet still are in the ront lines of defense for those who have all that wealth
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Mar 1, 2011 21:06:19 GMT -5
<<< yet still are in the ront lines of defense for those who have all that wealth >>> ...of course... just like the Baptists led the charge in separation of church and state during the early days of our founding... they may prefer everybody to be Baptist, but that wasn't their goal... it's the principle of the thing... one day we may be in the other guys' shoes... so let's protect everybody's ability to be in said shoes...
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rockon
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Post by rockon on Mar 2, 2011 9:06:03 GMT -5
But there is just as much irony in the left coming to the defense of the union leaders who bilk the middle class for millions each year, demand unreasonable compensation at the expense of the lower class workers and at the risk of more jobs moving over seas. Again "Party Poopers" defend the actions of those who donate and support their party regardless of whether their actions make sense or in many cases even when they are obviously wrong. You can most often detect these "Party" people because they defend their person by stating how what their person did wrong is still not as bad as what someone else did wrong. We could save a big chunk of money and level the playing field for independent candidates by eliminating the tax payer money used by these two major parties for their re election campaigns, PR and conventions.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2011 9:13:53 GMT -5
Unions are made up OF the middle class... people who belong to unions are solidly middle class...
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Mar 2, 2011 9:24:21 GMT -5
Yeah...so you keep saying. I believe a more moderate person would dismiss the liberal propaganda you continue to preach.
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Mar 2, 2011 9:30:36 GMT -5
Unions are made up OF the middle class... people who belong to unions are solidly middle class... DW and I are solidly middle class and neither of us have ever worked for a union.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Mar 2, 2011 9:32:01 GMT -5
DW and I are solidly middle class and neither of us have never worked for a union.
Interestingly enough, when I was growing up, my family did not move into the middle class until my dad got OUT of the union where he worked.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Mar 2, 2011 10:44:19 GMT -5
<<< yet still are in the ront lines of defense for those who have all that wealth >>> ...of course... just like the Baptists led the charge in separation of church and state during the early days of our founding... they may prefer everybody to be Baptist, but that wasn't their goal... it's the principle of the thing... one day we may be in the other guys' shoes... so let's protect everybody's ability to be in said shoes... LOL, trust me, I get to that point in my life...they want 37 % instead of 34 %...glady with a smile as I write the check, possible do a few dance steps , and a song on my lips, along the lines of , It's a great day...
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Mar 2, 2011 10:47:15 GMT -5
Unions are made up OF the middle class... people who belong to unions are solidly middle class... DW and I are solidly middle class and neither of us have ever worked for a union. Since there is only a bit over 12% membership in them today , and since so many teachers, police, fire, gov't workers belonging to them today..not surprising.
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Mar 2, 2011 10:49:49 GMT -5
<<< yet still are in the ront lines of defense for those who have all that wealth >>> ...of course... just like the Baptists led the charge in separation of church and state during the early days of our founding... they may prefer everybody to be Baptist, but that wasn't their goal... it's the principle of the thing... one day we may be in the other guys' shoes... so let's protect everybody's ability to be in said shoes... LOL, trust me, I get to that point in my life...they want 37 % instead of 34 %...glady with a smile as I write the check, possible do a few dance steps , and a song on my lips, along the lines of , It's a great day... If it makes you so happy to write the check, I'd love to make you even happier by allowing you to write one for me too. No need to thank me dezi....conservatives have big hearts and love to make people happy.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Mar 2, 2011 11:07:41 GMT -5
Unions are made up OF the middle class... people who belong to unions are solidly middle class... Got a story not sure where it fits in here, but in googling my old towns newspaper for the local news, came across this one, Pratt and Whitney , the Jet engine mfg..they have agreed to allow two of their plants to close, a buy out to many of the older workers, and retraining and moving many of the workers to the main plant in East Hartford, but there is a problem here. The average age of these very skilled workers, machinist, electricians and other trades is 54. Pratt had done away with their training of young machinist some years ago, schools have picked up the slack but not as strong as Pratt's schools. Union and company are in discussion to reopen the training to keep those skills available, in the USA.. These are very, very good jobs..and computers , robots do not take the place of them. Some years ago , my next door neighbor , he was a foreman at Pratt, gone now, and I were playing a round of golf and he knew what I did, but I questioned what he really did, had no knowledge of machinist work and he invited me to spend some time on the job. He got the permission, and I spent a morning with him, bought he and his friends lunch in payback, and I watched what they did. Highly skilled work, explained to me...a engineering friend of his was on the floor, explained how they run into problems at the drawing board all the time and need to come from to the floor to figure them out and how valuable it was to have skilled workman solve the problem, the input...the tolerances in those hugh engines, milled parts, were so important, American well paid jobe..all of them union jobs....they have had back and fourths over the years, even a occasional strike and yes many jobs being done over seas, Singapore is one place, but still 5000 plus well paid jobs here. Unions and management working together , and arguing and disagreeing but Pratt very profitable...workers are making very good wages, and from my eyes on ..very well deserved. What ever they, Pratt and the unions agree on, after all the table banging and curses, these are tough guys you know...what is so wrong with that?
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rockon
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Post by rockon on Mar 2, 2011 15:57:23 GMT -5
The union leaders driving this train are NOT middle class and the compensation they encourage the middle class PUBLIC workers to bargain for is largely paid for by LOWER class workers who receive less compensation. Hope this clears up my earlier comment and it seems like it should be the perfect scenario that the left would oppose strongly in their pursuit of equality for all.
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rockon
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Post by rockon on Mar 2, 2011 16:01:46 GMT -5
Dez, Nothing wrong with a union and negotiations between good management and unions..... nothing at all....... But it has no relevance to public workers negotiating with elected officials for compensation and pensions.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Mar 2, 2011 16:07:36 GMT -5
But it has no relevance to public workers negotiating with elected officials for compensation and pensions.
Especially when a conflict of interest is in place, when public unions support and contribute to govt candidates, who are in turn negotiating.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Mar 2, 2011 16:31:21 GMT -5
Dez, Nothing wrong with a union and negotiations between good management and unions..... nothing at all....... But it has no relevance to public workers negotiating with elected officials for compensation and pensions. If management , political, would put on their non political hat and put on their management hat in negotiations, it would be fine. They, management has something going for them. To be fair but tough. The public unions, they cannot strike. There fore , they work with no contract...and if needed to get the point across management does what it has to, get Mr/Mrs Joe/Joyce public on their side. Do layoffs, furloughs..blame on unions, .and if unions threaten to go to the other side in next election, well if its a Democrat administration who is negotiating , where are they going, the Republicans, so friendly over the decades to labor? If it's a republican administration like now in WI, they are never going to get the unions, except the cops and the pay off to them is what the political did in the past, bought them off by not taking away their right to negotiate AND not increasing their contributions on health and pensions. That's what this governor did the phony. Going to the other side in a threat? Like the Ultra left making threats with Obama giving in on the Bush tax cuts. Going to the pubs? naaa. Some idiots might of course but really, we liberals, even the middle to the left types, we are not nuts..vocal, some even a bit irrational but crazy? Naaaaaaa
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Mar 2, 2011 20:39:35 GMT -5
But it has no relevance to public workers negotiating with elected officials for compensation and pensions. Especially when a conflict of interest is in place, when public unions support and contribute to govt candidates, who are in turn negotiating.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Mar 2, 2011 22:56:28 GMT -5
I'll try this one more time. Once a person achieves a net worth where the return on the money is more than the person needs for living, then the net worth compounds upward at a very quick pace. This is why it is so important to live below your means so the excess money can grow. Use this over a lifetime and you will gain significant wealth providing you don't make stupid investments. My father worked in the steel mills as a highly skilled tradesman. He often used the example, if all union workers received a 3% pay raise, it overly compensated the higher paid trades, as 3% was evenly spread, to everyone, but if you made $25 an hour instead of $12 an hour, you increased the amount of the spread between the same corporate employees. $25 an hour became $25.75 an hour, $12 became $12.36 an hour increasing the difference between ranks by 29 cents an hour I.E, the rich get richer.......the middle class fell further behind, and the poor, well sorry about that...... Simple economics....... And yet liberals, say, the rich have to pick up the difference, which forces the rich to charge the poor even more for their products or services, creating even more hardship on the lower class...... A truly vicious "Circle of Life". Dezi, you never responded to this post of mine. It very simply explains how the poor fall behind, and the unemployed fall further behind. And to an extent the Government and unions are part of the reason. Unions love same percent increases for all members, under the same contract, letting their lesser paid members fall further behind. The Government does the same thing with social security increases being the same for everyone, regardless of wealth. This percent seems equal, but the dollars are not. The rich receive more dollars per capita than their poor bretheren................ At least the Government tries to reallocate the wealth thru income tax refunds for welfare families and lowering qualifications to get more into the hand of the poor. Taxing the rich more is not the answer. The government and unions can do it by getting larger raises for their poorer clientele, with less increase going to the upper echelon
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