AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 11:59:07 GMT -5
Posts: 31,709
Favorite Drink: Sweetwater 420
|
Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 25, 2011 11:33:29 GMT -5
Sure they are. Why would you expect otherwise? The poor, or at least most of them, are poor because of making bad choices in life. Why would we think they will suddenly start making good choices?
I would also argue government policies tend to keep the poor poor. Basic fact of taxation is to tax what you don't want to happen and to subsidize what you do want to happen. We subsidize the poor and in effect cause them to not try to do better. Conversely we tax wealth which means we do not want people to acquire wealth. Keep them poor and win their votes by promising to "give" them more subsidies. Of course you're right. We punish success and subsidize failure. After doing that for long enough- you get what we've got now. A dependent class of people who think they're entitled to whatever they want, and a productive class that is throwing up its hands and asking itself, "Why bother"? (or just leaving)
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 19, 2024 19:52:50 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2011 11:44:09 GMT -5
Sure they are. Why would you expect otherwise? The poor, or at least most of them, are poor because of making bad choices in life. Why would we think they will suddenly start making good choices?
I would also argue government policies tend to keep the poor poor. Basic fact of taxation is to tax what you don't want to happen and to subsidize what you do want to happen. We subsidize the poor and in effect cause them to not try to do better. Conversely we tax wealth which means we do not want people to acquire wealth. Keep them poor and win their votes by promising to "give" them more subsidies. Of course you're right. We punish success and subsidize failure. After doing that for long enough- you get what we've got now. A dependent class of people who think they're entitled to whatever they want, and a productive class that is throwing up its hands and asking itself, "Why bother"? (or just leaving) Except the stats don't bear this out.
|
|
rovo
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 14:20:19 GMT -5
Posts: 3,628
|
Post by rovo on Feb 25, 2011 11:45:53 GMT -5
What stats don't bear this out?
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 19, 2024 19:52:50 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2011 11:46:40 GMT -5
What stats don't bear this out? That stats that the rich keep getting richer at a faster rate than the poor.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 19, 2024 19:52:50 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2011 11:47:52 GMT -5
who is throwing their hands up and asking why bother or just leaving?
|
|
rovo
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 14:20:19 GMT -5
Posts: 3,628
|
Post by rovo on Feb 25, 2011 11:54:18 GMT -5
I'll try this one more time. Once a person achieves a net worth where the return on the money is more than the person needs for living, then the net worth compounds upward at a very quick pace. This is why it is so important to live below your means so the excess money can grow. Use this over a lifetime and you will gain significant wealth providing you don't make stupid investments.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 19, 2024 19:52:50 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2011 11:55:18 GMT -5
I'll try this one more time. Once a person achieves a net worth where the return on the money is more than the person needs for living, then the net worth compounds upward at a very quick pace. This is why it is so important to live below your means so the excess money can grow. Use this over a lifetime and you will gain significant wealth providing you don't make stupid investments. So who is it that is getting punished and throwing hands up and leavings?
|
|
|
Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Feb 25, 2011 11:58:43 GMT -5
$70 billion in individual net worth has fled the state of New Jersey the last 18 months, due to the levels of taxation in the state. California is losing population at a rapid pace.
These are the folks who are throwing up their hands.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 19, 2024 19:52:50 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2011 11:59:59 GMT -5
$70 billion in individual net worth has fled the state of New Jersey the last 18 months, due to the levels of taxation in the state. California is losing population at a rapid pace. These are the folks who are throwing up their hands. I can understand folks moving between states, but who is leaving the US?
|
|
|
Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Feb 25, 2011 12:08:13 GMT -5
I can understand folks moving between states, but who is leaving the US?
Savvy investors can easily shift from taxable investments to non-taxable investments. You are a CPA, you should be aware of this.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 19, 2024 19:52:50 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2011 12:09:52 GMT -5
I can understand folks moving between states, but who is leaving the US? Savvy investors can easily shift from taxable investments to non-taxable investments. You are a CPA, you should be aware of this. So who is leaving, throwing up their hands and giving up ?
|
|
|
Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Feb 25, 2011 12:11:00 GMT -5
So who is leaving, throwing up their hands and giving up ?
They are moving to non-taxable or tax preferenced investments. In affect, avoiding taxation.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 19, 2024 19:52:50 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2011 12:11:20 GMT -5
So who is leaving, throwing up their hands and giving up ? They are moving to non-taxable or tax preferenced investments. In affect, avoiding taxation. Ok... proves my point.
|
|
|
Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Feb 25, 2011 12:14:59 GMT -5
You proved nothing. The wealthy can easily flee high taxation.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 19, 2024 19:52:50 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2011 12:19:18 GMT -5
You proved nothing. The wealthy can easily flee high taxation. Proves my point.
|
|
swamp
Community Leader
Don't be a fool. Call me!
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 16:03:22 GMT -5
Posts: 45,345
|
Post by swamp on Feb 25, 2011 12:23:36 GMT -5
Sure they are. Why would you expect otherwise? The poor, or at least most of them, are poor because of making bad choices in life. Why would we think they will suddenly start making good choices?
I would also argue government policies tend to keep the poor poor. Basic fact of taxation is to tax what you don't want to happen and to subsidize what you do want to happen. We subsidize the poor and in effect cause them to not try to do better. Conversely we tax wealth which means we do not want people to acquire wealth. Keep them poor and win their votes by promising to "give" them more subsidies. Of course you're right. We punish success and subsidize failure. After doing that for long enough- you get what we've got now. A dependent class of people who think they're entitled to whatever they want, and a productive class that is throwing up its hands and asking itself, "Why bother"? (or just leaving) I dunno about that, I kinda like making money and the choices it provides me. I could quit my job, become a welfare momma, but that doesn't sound like too much fun..........
|
|
rockon
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 8:49:55 GMT -5
Posts: 2,384
|
Post by rockon on Feb 25, 2011 12:37:21 GMT -5
These arguments make no difference. Raising the tax rate on a high worth individual will not equalize or change this trend. We need to understand what is actually causing this disparity to grow. Also just read an article recently that talked about the huge number of wealthy people who are fleeing this country with their money and living like kings in some of the South America countries so Saviour is correct in his statement that many more will leave if it becomes advantageous.
|
|
|
Post by privateinvestor on Feb 25, 2011 12:41:01 GMT -5
Re: It's true, the rich are getting richer and...Read more: www.notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=politics&action=display&thread=3850&page=3#ixzz1EzdW1xQeNot really since many who may be considered "rich" have seen the value of their homes decrease considerably and owe more on their mortgages than the value of their homes. Plus most workers who have 401K's have not seen increases for the past two years since the market collapse in the fall of 2008......but you can toss out ole axioms and I suppose some will stick occasionally. How about " I have been poor and I have been rich but in all due respect I would rather be rich"...or "invest for the long term and sell hardly never"...'only the poor folks pay taxes" or "Winners never lose and losers never win" OPPPPPPPPPPPs sorry I am probably getting Mr Burns to dooze off to sleep again...
|
|
deziloooooo
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 16:22:04 GMT -5
Posts: 10,723
|
Post by deziloooooo on Feb 25, 2011 12:45:03 GMT -5
I read all the above posts, glad others are also so verbal, I always feel so guilty..many good points..
I still believe to allow the Bush Tax to not expire..reasons given way above , especially on the highest bracket..especially with the information of the charts as to where they are today..where the rest are was stupid...those who argued against..and not even close to where they are , wealthiest , and will never ever be...on a million years of trying..... to be polite, in my stimation , they are , were wrong...
and the arguments, if that is what they are , also above...seem to have nothing to do with the cuts..arguments to do away, not do away with them..just exhortations that with hard work and perseverence one can.... the "Horatio Alger" story of success. {Any one here know who and what Horatio is/was?}
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 19, 2024 19:52:50 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2011 12:48:48 GMT -5
I'll try this one more time. Once a person achieves a net worth where the return on the money is more than the person needs for living, then the net worth compounds upward at a very quick pace. This is why it is so important to live below your means so the excess money can grow. Use this over a lifetime and you will gain significant wealth providing you don't make stupid investments. So who is it that is getting punished and throwing hands up and leavings? Are you familiar with the term sno birds? These are people that leave cold high tax states to go to warm low tax states. Some of them only leave in the winter, but still change residency to the lower tax states. We have many people that do that here.
|
|
|
Post by privateinvestor on Feb 25, 2011 12:51:29 GMT -5
So who is it that is getting punished and throwing hands up and leavings?
Several tech companies have been leaving here in Silicon Valley CA and moving to Austin Texas, Phoenix Arizona or other states where the state business taxes are less and there is more afforable housing with a lower cost of living. And we also have firemen, policemen, and teachers leaving to pursue other careers where there is more job stability or better opportunities. Brown has promised to stem this flood out of CA but so fare he has not been successful and doesn't appear as if he will..
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 19, 2024 19:52:50 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2011 12:55:09 GMT -5
Except that whatever study this thread is about states that the rich are still getting richer at a faster rate than the poor. Of course. The more money you have, the more you will make on that money. As I see it the problem isn't the rich, the problem is that to many of the middle & upper middle classes live to the fullest that their pay can substain. If more of them picked a lower lifestyle they too could make more money because they would have more to invest.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 19, 2024 19:52:50 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2011 12:59:12 GMT -5
Of course you're right. We punish success and subsidize failure. After doing that for long enough- you get what we've got now. A dependent class of people who think they're entitled to whatever they want, and a productive class that is throwing up its hands and asking itself, "Why bother"? (or just leaving)
So who is it that is getting punished and throwing hands up and leavings?
Actually my uncle is checking into the tax advantages of moving out of country. My guess is that a lot more of this goes on than we really hear about & it will continue to be a silent exodus until there are enough of them to show up on a census somewhere.
|
|
rockon
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 8:49:55 GMT -5
Posts: 2,384
|
Post by rockon on Feb 25, 2011 13:00:47 GMT -5
Of course we probably should keep this in perspective and mention that if your reading this post you most likely are in the top 5% of the wealthiest people in the whole world so if we followed the suggestion of some posting on this thread then it would only be logical that we should make sure we tax the hell out of everyone here and split that with people across the globe. that should really provide an incentive for everyone here to get out and risk everything they have to get ahead.
|
|
|
Post by privateinvestor on Feb 25, 2011 13:00:48 GMT -5
Except that whatever study this thread is about states that the rich are still getting richer at a faster rate than the poor.Of course. The more money you have, the more you will make on that money. As I see it the problem isn't the rich, the problem is that to many of the middle & upper middle classes live to the fullest that their pay can substain. If more of them picked a lower lifestyle they too could make more money because they would have more to invest. Aren't most middle class folks doing that now with so much uncertainty with a slow growth economic conditions in most states...layoffs and foreclosures are still around most everywhere you look today. The rich may be getting richer. but so what???Hasn't that happened since Eve convinced Adam to take a bite out of the apple.. So it is all the fault of the ladies or fair sex...
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 19, 2024 19:52:50 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2011 13:01:49 GMT -5
Except that whatever study this thread is about states that the rich are still getting richer at a faster rate than the poor.Of course. The more money you have, the more you will make on that money. As I see it the problem isn't the rich, the problem is that to many of the middle & upper middle classes live to the fullest that their pay can substain. If more of them picked a lower lifestyle they too could make more money because they would have more to invest. Aren't most middle class folks doing that now with so much uncertainty with a slow growth economic conditions in most states...layoffs and foreclosures are still around most everywhere you look today. The rich may be getting richer but so what that has happened since Eve convinced Adam to take a bite out of the apple.. And yet the rich keep complaining.
|
|
|
Post by privateinvestor on Feb 25, 2011 13:02:48 GMT -5
And yet the rich keep complaining.
And laughing all the way to their off shore banks....ie the Kadashians whose income this year is estimated to be @$30+ million... or Sarah Palin who is in the same neighborhood which isn't such a bad neighborhood..IMHO
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 19, 2024 19:52:50 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2011 13:04:11 GMT -5
I dunno about that, I kinda like making money and the choices it provides me. I could quit my job, become a welfare momma, but that doesn't sound like too much fun..........
Swamp, my guess is that most (if not all) of the people on this board totally agree with you. The problem is that there are people out there that are so lazy that they wouldn't even have kids if they had to move around during conception. I for one think that there are a lot more of those people than anyone realizes. Add that to the people working the system (getting the benefits & working under the table) & there is a problem. Ex: My folks were wanting to get some furniture repaired. They found someone to do it but one of his stipulations was that it would be a cash transaction (and he wouldn't charge tax on the repair).
|
|
|
Post by privateinvestor on Feb 25, 2011 13:07:19 GMT -5
You also have liberals/socialists who beleive in class warfare and condemn the rich and want to tax their wealth more and more to then re distribute their wealth to the poor and needy ...
Pelosi tried this for four years and kept saying No to tax breaks for the rich and yes to making them pay more taxes so she could funnel this revenue to her constituents, and or liberal agenda....however last November voters said No to Pelosi and her ilk..
|
|
swamp
Community Leader
Don't be a fool. Call me!
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 16:03:22 GMT -5
Posts: 45,345
|
Post by swamp on Feb 25, 2011 13:07:25 GMT -5
But the really lazy people don't vote, so I'm not sure why they're catered to.
|
|