Another gun thread- cop accidently kills wife...

[EVT1]

articles.philly.com/2014-03-10/news/48055030_1_state-trooper-montgomery-county-pregnant-woman

     JoAnne Miller, who was 22 weeks pregnant, was taken to Mercy Suburban Hospital with a gunshot wound to the upper body. She died soon after she was admitted. Doctors performed an unsuccessful emergency cesarean. "The baby never had its own breathing or heartbeat," said the Montgomery County coroner, Walter Hofman.
 
     The shooting in the home on the 3000 block of Stony Creek Road in East Norriton occurred around 2:30 p.m. Friday, police said. The officer pulled the trigger while taking apart his .45-caliber handgun for cleaning but did not realize the gun was loaded, police said.

While this could very well be a very stupid mistake- who pulls the trigger or points a gun in an unsafe direction while cleaning it or whatever?  (This being a combination fuck up of pulling the trigger at the same time it was pointed in an unsafe direction)  I thought checking guns for safety was in cop class 101.  Reminds me of that other cop that shot himself in front of a class explaining why he was qualified to handle firearms. 

File this under my previous rants- no such thing as gun accidents, only gun negligence.  What a horrible way to learn a lesson you should already know.  Also very hard to buy the explanation coming from a cop.

[Deleted]

And this is exactly why I say that cops are not always better trained with weapons than the average citizen.

And seriously: First rule - Don't touch the trigger unless you intend to fire.

Second Rule - clear the weapon of any bullets. Taking the clip out doesn't mean its clear.

A cop should know this. Unfortunately he now lost his wife and child because of his gross negligence.

[Virgil Showlion]

It is highly suspect. I don't know whether it's "better" if it was simple negligence or cold-blooded murder.

[Green Eyed Lady]

I don't buy this story at all.  Too many stupid things happening in a row.  I fully realize some people really are that stupid, but I'm not buying it this time.  Cleaning a gun with his kids at home and his pregnant wife in the room.  Pointing the gun (while cleaning it) at his wife.  Not realizing the gun is loaded.  Pulling the dang trigger.  Yes.  Some people are stupid, but this was way too  much "stupid" in a row to be believable.

[EVT1]

Yes- a very hard story to believe. If that had been a regular citizen I doubt it would be written off as an accident so fast...

They would be facing charges for something.

But if one did want to off their spouse- get out the gun cleaning kit.....

[justme]

At least the investigation isn't closed yet. I'm with the others of thinking it's shady. To hit her in the upper torso? Whether he was sitting down or standing, the gun never should have been pointed that high.

[Virgil Showlion]

But if one did want to off their spouse- get out the gun cleaning kit.....

If it was murder, it wasn't premeditated. There are dozens of easier, less risky ways of killing a person and then disposing of the body. The article also says that the couple's children were at home at the time, which doesn't seem terribly planned out. It doesn't say how old they are.

But it does seem to me that if I'd shot somebody in a fit of rage--at home--and wanted to get away with it, I'd rush to get out my gun cleaning kit ASAP before calling 911.

At least the investigation isn't closed yet. I'm with the others of thinking it's shady. To hit her in the upper torso? Whether he was sitting down or standing, the gun never should have been pointed that high.

Unless his wife was also sitting down. For example, they might have been sitting side by side on a couch.

It's suspicious, but barring some damning piece of forensic evidence, the justice system has to give him the benefit of the doubt and convict him only of manslaughter or negligent homicide.

[Cookies Galore]

Oh damn. This isn't too far from me, but this is the first I've heard of this story. Apparently she was shot in the head?  www.timesherald.com/general-news/20140310/autopsy-completed-in-shooting-death-of-pennsylvania-state-troopers-wife

[EVT1]

I guess so- this has Dateline episode written all over it.   Cleaned many guns and never pulled the trigger taking one down- have dry fired them after sometimes just for a function check- but not pointed at someone- pointed at the floor.  I cannot see how this could happen- the only way I'd even consider the story if she had been shot through a wall or ceiling- but if it was a head shot in the same room- that's just hard to swallow.  And if it was truly unintentional- what a confluence of negligence and bad luck- would hate to be in his shoes either way.

[Deleted]

Mar 13, 2014 19:15:10 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

I guess so- this has Dateline episode written all over it.   Cleaned many guns and never pulled the trigger taking one down- have dry fired them after sometimes just for a function check- but not pointed at someone- pointed at the floor.  I cannot see how this could happen- the only way I'd even consider the story if she had been shot through a wall or ceiling- but if it was a head shot in the same room- that's just hard to swallow.  And if it was truly unintentional- what a confluence of negligence and bad luck- would hate to be in his shoes either way.

Until the facts (if we ever get the real ones) come out, none of us know what the circumstance was at the time. It could definitely be an accident or something premeditated to look as such. Either way he comes off looking ignorant and negligent.

That said...you are right that if this is an accident, there is gross negligence and pure stupidity on the part of the cop cleaning the gun.

[zibazinski]

Interesting. My gun instructor with a wife and two young sons never ever cleans his gun in a room with any of them in it. In fact he has a designated area in which his children are taught to never enter. On a totally different floor. It would seem to me that a policeman would know how to properly care for his gun as well and you don't do it around other people.

[marvholly]

WAAAY too many 'coincidents' for me to believe this was truely an accident but I doubt anything else will be proven.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

This stinks.

He broke just about every rule of handgun safety, i cant imagine that they would issue a gun to a cop without any training in handgun safety.

Even if he was dry firing the gun, you NEVER point it in someone's direction.

Makes no sense, unless it was deliberate set up as an accident.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

Oh damn. This isn't too far from me, but this is the first I've heard of this story. Apparently she was shot in the head?

It definitely has that "Oops - she was just sitting across the kitchen table from me as I was cleaning my weapon - I had a twitch and next thing I knew, a bullet was discharged from the chamber as I was handling the gun - I was sure the chamber was empty".


Yeah, right.

[Sam_2.0]

Mar 13, 2014 14:15:44 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

But if one did want to off their spouse- get out the gun cleaning kit.....

If it was murder, it wasn't premeditated. There are dozens of easier, less risky ways of killing a person and then disposing of the body. The article also says that the couple's children were at home at the time, which doesn't seem terribly planned out. It doesn't say how old they are.

But it does seem to me that if I'd shot somebody in a fit of rage--at home--and wanted to get away with it, I'd rush to get out my gun cleaning kit ASAP before calling 911.

At least the investigation isn't closed yet. I'm with the others of thinking it's shady. To hit her in the upper torso? Whether he was sitting down or standing, the gun never should have been pointed that high.

Unless his wife was also sitting down. For example, they might have been sitting side by side on a couch.

It's suspicious, but barring some damning piece of forensic evidence, the justice system has to give him the benefit of the doubt and convict him only of manslaughter or negligent homicide.

Premeditation does not take months of planning. Around here, all they have to do is show the person made a conscious decision to kill someone. It could be 3 minutes before the act. He could have planned to do it while he was cleaning his gun to make it look like an accident.

I've been around gun owners my whole life, had loaded guns in the house, etc. Never, ever, ever would someone clean a gun in a room where others were present and NEVER would a gun be pointed at someone even if you were 1000% sure the bullets were all out. NEVER.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

I've been around gun owners my whole life, had loaded guns in the house, etc. Never, ever, ever would someone clean a gun in a room where others were present and NEVER would a gun be pointed at someone even if you were 1000% sure the bullets were all out. NEVER.

This is the crux of it. You do NOT point a gun and pull the trigger at something you do not intend to shoot....ever. Even if you think that the gun is empty.

[Shooby]

It soundd suspect. And did the children hearing an argument or struggle? Did he immediately call 911? What was the angle of the bullet? Does that support hud story ?

[zibazinski]

Cops and ex cops know how to cover up. Ask Casey Anthony's father.

[Deleted]

The very FIRST thing the average citizen (not to mention LAW ENFORCEMENT) is taught in gun safety courses where I come from is to "ALWAYS ASSUME IT'S A LOADED WEAPON." That is drilled into your psyche, over and over and over again, until it becomes memorized and you NEVER forget it. You never look at a firearm and assume anything but: Firearm=LOADED.

How much more training do law enforcement officers have to do, than civilians...?

TONS.

I'm not buying his story...

 

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Mar 22, 2014 0:38:53 GMT -5 @bellarue said:

How much more training do law enforcement officers have to do, than civilians...?

TONS.

I'm not buying his story...

 

Sadly, that is not always the case.  My firearms instructor gets cops as students and he says that they usually have a lot of bad habits that he needs to break them of.

What is even more sad, many times the cop needs to take classes on their own dime AND take vacation time for it.

[zibazinski]

Tough noogies.  If you're going to handle/carry a gun you not only take safety courses but you practice, other wise give up the gun to those who are smarter than you are. Safety courses are held on nights and weekends. Most cops have every other weekend off and work 12 hour shifts.  They have time to take classes. This story reeks. 

[Deleted]

Well mich I do think prospective officers should have their training paid for, but at any rate, I'm pretty sure State Troopers require more training than twp./city officers. This woman age 34, was a Marine soldier, a police dispatch operator (is that how they met?) very very involved in her community, Mother of 4 (oldest 2 weren't current husband's bios...youngest 2 were) and pregnant w/Gillian (I believe) the in utero 5.5 mo. fetus, who was buried with her.

.......

I'm curious to find out the truth...but this is inexcusable as far as I'm concerned, especially for a man who carries a firearm every single day he works. 

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Mar 22, 2014 19:31:27 GMT -5 @bellarue said:

Well mich I do think prospective officers should have their training paid for, but at any rate, I'm pretty sure State Troopers require more training than twp./city officers. This woman age 34, was a Marine soldier, a police dispatch operator (is that how they met?) very very involved in her community, Mother of 4 (oldest 2 weren't current husband's bios...youngest 2 were) and pregnant w/Gillian (I believe) the in utero 5.5 mo. fetus, who was buried with her.

.......

I'm curious to find out the truth...but this is inexcusable as far as I'm concerned, especially for a man who carries a firearm every single day he works. 

I didn't say that they got NO training, I said that they many times get insufficient training, and probably not more than many civilians that want to handle firearms safely.  

Over the last 2 years, I've had over 80 hours of training and periodically go for more.  I know my instructor still goes for training a couple times a year.  But I suspect that once cops get their training, that is it.  And I do know that my instructor needed to retrain Seattle Police who had signed up (and paid for) additional training on their own dime after they had been on the force for years.  During that time, they had picked up bad habits.  Training does need to be periodically reinforced.

My point is that your assumption that cops get tons of training is not correct.  However, that cop broke so many cardinal rules of firearm safety that it is hard to believe that he did not shot his wife deliberately.