Any lawyers want to do me a favor?

[Sum Dum Gai]

I need you to interpret some legaleze for me. I need to know if it's legal to hold a free poker tournament in a public business in California. When I say free I mean completely free, no entry fee, no donation, no money wagered, etc. If legal, is it still legal to offer non-cash prizes to the winners?

You can read the confusing legaleze here;
www.gambling-law-us.com/State-Laws/California/

[Sum Dum Gai]

Specifically Penal Code Sec 337j;

a) It is unlawful for any person, as owner, lessee, or employee, whether for hire or not, either solely or in conjunction with others, to do any of the following without having first procured and thereafter maintained in effect all federal, state, and local licenses required by law:
(1) To deal, operate, carry on, conduct, maintain, or expose for play in this state any controlled game.
(2) To receive, directly or indirectly, any compensation or reward or any percentage or share of the revenue, for keeping, running, or carrying on any controlled game.
(3) To manufacture, distribute, or repair any gambling equipment within the boundaries of this state, or to receive, directly or indirectly, any compensation or reward for the manufacture, distribution, or repair of any gambling equipment within the boundaries of this state.
(b) It is unlawful for any person to knowingly permit any controlled game to be conducted, operated, dealt, or carried on in any house or building or other premises that he or she owns or leases, in whole or in part, if that activity is undertaken by a person who is not licensed as required by state law, or by an employee of that person.
(c) It is unlawful for any person to knowingly permit any gambling equipment to be manufactured, stored, or repaired in any house or building or other premises that the person owns or leases, in whole or in part, if that activity is undertaken by a person who is not licensed as required by state law, or by an employee of that person.
(d) Any person who violates, attempts to violate, or conspires to violate this section shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail for not more than one year or by a fine of not more than ten thousand dollars ($10,000), or by both imprisonment and fine. A second offense of this section is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail for a period of not more than one year or in the state prison or by a fine of not more than ten thousand dollars ($10,000), or by both imprisonment and fine.
(e) (1) As used in this section, "controlled game " means any poker or Pai Gow game, and any other game played with cards or tiles, or both, and approved by the Division of Gambling Control, and any game of chance, including any gambling device, played for currency, check, credit, or any other thing of value that is not prohibited and made unlawful by statute or local ordinance.
(2) As used in this section, "controlled game" does not include any of the following:
(A) The game of bingo conducted pursuant to Section 326.3 or 326.5.
(B) Parimutuel racing on horse races regulated by the California
Horse Racing Board.
(C) Any lottery game conducted by the California State Lottery.
(D) Games played with cards in private homes or residences, in which no person makes money for operating the game, except as a player.
(f) This subdivision is intended to be dispositive of the law relating to the collection of player fees in gambling establishments.
A fee may not be calculated as a fraction or percentage of wagers made or winnings earned. The amount of fees charged for all wagers shall be determined prior to the start of play of any hand or round. However, the gambling establishment may waive collection of the fee or portion of the fee in any hand or round of play after the hand or round has begun pursuant to the published rules of the game and the notice provided to the public. The actual collection of the fee may occur before or after the start of play. Ample notice shall be provided to the patrons of gambling establishments relating to the assessment of fees. Flat fees on each wager may be assessed at different collection rates, but no more than three collection rates may be established per table. However, if the gambling establishment waives its collection fee, this fee does not constitute one of the three collection rates.

I'm interpreting paragraph F to mean that the entire code would only apply if I was charging an entry fee, playing for money and raking the pot, or charging an hourly fee to sit in the game.  Need to make sure though.

[swamp]

Because its run in a business,it's illegal. It's a misdemeanor. 

If you did it in our home, you'd be good. 

However, betting pools are illegal in NY, but the bars around here have them and advertise them in the paper.  

Is "gambling establishments" defined elsewhere in the law?  I assume they must all be license, registered, etc.  

[Sum Dum Gai]

Section E says it's only a controlled game if it's played for money right? Or does the fact that I'm offering prizes make it a controlled game?

[swamp]

I think the fact its poker makes it a controled game. Check that definition

[swamp]

I think the fact its poker makes it a controled game. Check that definition

[Sum Dum Gai]

But it's a free poker game. How can it be gambling if it's free? The definition says any game played with cards or tiles, does that mean a Scrabble tournament is illegal?

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

How 'bout a rousing game of go fish?

[Sum Dum Gai]

Actually according to that definition Magic the Gathering, Pokemon, and Yu-gi-ho are illegal too. It says any game played with cards or tiles for anything of value. Collectible cards have value, so tournaments of collectible card games would be just as illegal as poker.

For that matter, so would a Scrabble tournament. However I know that collectible card game and Scrabble tournaments happen all the time, many with cash buy ins and prizes, so I'm clearly missing something in the legal language.

[swamp]

You're expecting the law to make sense. Stop that. 

[Sum Dum Gai]

Now I'm wondering if I'm already breaking the law with my Magic and Pokemon tournaments? Every game store in the state does them, so I'm not going to stop, but I'm curious.

[Deleted]

I'd just roll the dice on that one (pun intended) and see how it goes. What's the worst that can happen

[Sum Dum Gai]

I'd just roll the dice on that one (pun intended) and see how it goes. What's the worst that can happen

According to that penal code, a year in the county jail and a $10k fine.  Both of which would suck pretty hard, but the year in the pokey would especially blow.  I'm too pretty to be locked up.

[swamp]

Feb 2, 2014 20:21:56 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

Now I'm wondering if I'm already breaking the law with my Magic and Pokemon tournaments? Every game store in the state does them, so I'm not going to stop, but I'm curious.

Nobody gets kneecapped over pokemon.

[Malarky]

Do you really want poker associated with your toy store?

I'd think it would alienate a bunch of potential customers. 

Poker is an adult gambling endeavor. 

Pokeman is a kids game. You need to attract parents of kids. 

[Deleted]

I think you'd be fine if there was no betting.  Why not just take a Native American as a minority partner and do the real thing?

[tloonya]

Feb 3, 2014 1:38:12 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

I'd just roll the dice on that one (pun intended) and see how it goes. What's the worst that can happen

According to that penal code, a year in the county jail and a $10k fine.  Both of which would suck pretty hard, but the year in the pokey would especially blow.  I'm too pretty to be locked up.

POKERMAN tournament it should be called and let them find where it says POKERMAN is illegal or gambling

[swamp]

Feb 3, 2014 1:38:12 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

I'd just roll the dice on that one (pun intended) and see how it goes. What's the worst that can happen

According to that penal code, a year in the county jail and a $10k fine.  Both of which would suck pretty hard, but the year in the pokey would especially blow.  I'm too pretty to be locked up.

It's your first offense. You'd get it reduced to a violation and smacked with a fine. 

[Sum Dum Gai]

Nobody gets kneecapped over pokemon.

Nobody gets kneecapped over a free poker game with a toy store gift certificate for the winner either.

[Deleted]

Feb 3, 2014 14:46:35 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

Nobody gets kneecapped over pokemon.

Nobody gets kneecapped over a free poker game with a toy store gift certificate for the winner either.

So just do it.  Or you think one of the nerds is going to narc you?

[Sum Dum Gai]

I was considering doing it as a little side hustle.  I've been meeting more of the other small business owners in town.  Conversations always turn to how hard advertising is here.  Nobody reads the local paper, and they charge a fortune for advertising anyway considering their readership numbers have been declining for years.  There's not much else locally advertising wise though.  Anyway, there's a few bar/restaurant owners that have told me I'm more than welcome to run my events in their establishments if I'm running out of room in mine.  They want the revenue from drinks/food, and I do the hard work of organizing something and getting people to show up.  I can't run Pokemon games in a bar though, for obvious reasons.

However, for a cut of their take for the night, or a flat fee per head, I'd happily run free poker tournaments in their establishments.  I supply the dealers, tables, cards, chips, and bring 20+ people into their place for several hours on Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday nights.  They pay me to do it.

I can't have it associated with the toy store though, because gambling... and stuff... (people are weird about their card games, if I was running free cribbage tournaments nobody would bat an eye, of course nobody would show up to play either except for a few 200 year olds), so I'd have to start a second little business separate from the store.

However, if I'm running a little business for profit (won't be much, but still) with paid dealers, and we're playing poker in businesses, I need to know whether or not it's legal.  I'm not making any money on the poker game itself.  It would be an event promotion business.  I'd be getting paid by the bar owner for bringing bodies into his place on slow nights.  The poker players wouldn't be risking anything, since the games would be free.  

Unfortunately our state gambling laws look like they were written in 1890, and occasionally modified by a remedial track high school student since then.  I spent 6 hours yesterday reading advisories and notices on the state gambling control board site, and the gambling statutes themselves, and still can't tell whether something like that is legal.  There's a company that does it in San Jose.  They're a free amateur bar poker league.  All games are free to the players, and no side betting of any kind is allowed.  They advertise on Facebook and stuff.  It looks like legally it's a gray area.  A local cop or DA could charge them with running an illegal controlled game at any time.

[swamp]

A local cop or DA could charge them with running an illegal controlled game at any time.

They could if they weren't playing in the tournament.

[Deleted]

can't have it associated with the toy store though, because gambling... and stuff... (people are weird about their card games, if I was running free cribbage tournaments nobody would bat an eye, of course nobody would show up to play either except for a few 200 year olds), so I'd have to start a second little business separate from the store.

But oddly it can be associated with charity, go figure.

[Sum Dum Gai]

Right, the local cancer support charity can hold a Casino night fundraiser, where you "donate" money to get chips, and nobody has a problem with it.  If I hold a free poker game in my toy store during game night, people are worried it's going to turn people off.  Go figure.

[qofcc]

If your customers would be turned off by poker from a toy store how about euchre? Euchre tournaments usually get a good draw.

Have you considered calling (anonymously) & asking if there would be a problem?

Sent from my SCH-I605 using proboards

[Sum Dum Gai]

I sent an email to the state gambling control board.  We'll see if anyone gets back to me.  

Just googling around I found a few dozen bar poker leagues in the state.  There are at least two fairly large ones in the bay area.  One even pays cash prizes for their nightly tournaments, and a quarterly invitational tournament for the top point scorers with the winner getting a paid entry into a poker tournament at a local casino.

They're either all operating illegally and nobody cares, or there's some loophole that makes it not gambling.  I'm guessing it's the lack of a wager or buy-in on the part of the players.

The state can't make it illegal to play poker, they can only make it illegal to gamble on poker.

[Deleted]

Feb 3, 2014 8:33:02 GMT -5 Malarky said:

Do you really want poker associated with your toy store?

I'd think it would alienate a bunch of potential customers. 

Poker is an adult gambling endeavor. 

Pokeman is a kids game. You need to attract parents of kids. 

Most people that play Magic are adults, adults who will spend a ton at Dark's store.  So, to me, poker makes sense.