Italian appeals court upholds Knox conviction

[chiver78]

link

American student Amanda Knox, who spent four years in prison before her murder verdict was overturned, was re-convicted Thursday of stabbing to death her roommate when they were students in Italy in 2007.

A panel of two judges and six jurors sentenced Knox to 28 years. They also found her Italian ex-boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito, guilty and called for a sentence of 25 years in a sensational case that has made headlines on both sides of the Atlantic for six years.

It's unclear what will happen to Knox, who is certain to appeal — a process that could take a year or longer.

The 26-year-old — nicknamed Foxy Knoxy by some media — returned to her home in Seattle after being acquitted on appeal. She did not appear at the latest trial, and had vowed not to return to Italy whatever the outcome.

“Legally I'll be defined a ‘fugitive,’ but I will continue to fight for my innocence,’’ she said in a statement to TODAY earlier this month. “I will not willingly submit myself to injustice."

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[justme]

This thing makes me not want to visit Italy.

[billisonboard]

Jan 30, 2014 16:16:17 GMT -5 justme said:

This thing makes me not want to visit Italy.

Why? She is in Seattle now.

[justme]

Jan 30, 2014 18:28:13 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Jan 30, 2014 16:16:17 GMT -5 justme said:

This thing makes me not want to visit Italy.

Why? She is in Seattle now.

Just that the judicial system is so different over there. No such thing as double jeopardy, it's all just so weird. I know other countries have different systems too so it's not going to stop me from going there, but it's still crazy. And, while everyone says it seems unlikely the US will let it happen, Italy can ask for extradition to throw her back in jail. It also greatly restricts if she can ever leave the US as they might have different extradition rules than Italy.

[DVM gone riding]

I definitely would NEVER leave the US if I was her. BUT the US is a big place I know lots of people that have never left the US its not the end of the world. Its not like she has to never leave WA state.

[grits]

"The family" could get involved, and she won't have to leave to be sentenced..

[Deleted]

Jan 30, 2014 18:28:13 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Jan 30, 2014 16:16:17 GMT -5 justme said:

This thing makes me not want to visit Italy.

Why? She is in Seattle now

Because you may run into another drugged up american and her boyfriend who sex you up then kill you

[Sum Dum Gai]

If Italy seeks extradition the government will no doubt send her over. Extradition treaties work both ways.

[Tennesseer]

Jan 30, 2014 21:28:53 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

If Italy seeks extradition the government will no doubt send her over. Extradition treaties work both ways.

That first guilty verdict being overturned and Knox freed to leave Italy may be a real problem with an extradition request.  It is going to be messy.

[marvholly]

this is going to get messy IF the Italian supreme court upholds this verdict (automatic appeal requirewd). We have a extradition treaty with most (all?) EU countries and by those terms will be REQUIRED to send her back to Italy. If we do not we will have an even bigger mess than the NSA spying scandal since no one would ever sign any kind of treaty with us again if we pick & choose which/when to honor.

All that said & done: IMHO she is most likely NOT guilty (I am about 50/50 & that is NOT enough to convict here) and the Italian prosecutor& court are just trying to save face.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Jan 30, 2014 22:02:41 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Jan 30, 2014 21:28:53 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

If Italy seeks extradition the government will no doubt send her over. Extradition treaties work both ways.

That first guilty verdict being overturned and Knox freed to leave Italy may be a real problem with an extradition request.  It is going to be messy.

Correct.  The bottom line is that she can only be extradited for a crime that she could be convicted of in the US.  Having been found NOT GUILTY, that's it.  In the US, she could never be put in jeopardy again, so as long as she stays out of Italy, she's never going to be extradited- she can't legally be extradited under US laws.

[billisonboard]

Jan 31, 2014 9:46:19 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Jan 30, 2014 22:02:41 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

That first guilty verdict being overturned and Knox freed to leave Italy may be a real problem with an extradition request.  It is going to be messy.

Correct.  The bottom line is that she can only be extradited for a crime that she could be convicted of in the US.  Having been found NOT GUILTY, that's it.  In the US, she could never be put in jeopardy again, so as long as she stays out of Italy, she's never going to be extradited- she can't legally be extradited under US laws.

After that conviction was overturned in 2013 by the Kansas Court of Appeals, Shumway was to be tried a second time in the clubbing death of Mitchell L. Davis, 28, of Topeka. The trial was to start on March 17. m.cjonline.com/news/2014-01-30/after-1999-slaying-conviction-overturned-shumway-makes-manslaughter-plea

Was she found not guilty or was the verdict of guilty overturned? I honestly don't know.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Jan 31, 2014 9:59:30 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Jan 31, 2014 9:46:19 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Correct.  The bottom line is that she can only be extradited for a crime that she could be convicted of in the US.  Having been found NOT GUILTY, that's it.  In the US, she could never be put in jeopardy again, so as long as she stays out of Italy, she's never going to be extradited- she can't legally be extradited under US laws.

After that conviction was overturned in 2013 by the Kansas Court of Appeals, Shumway was to be tried a second time in the clubbing death of Mitchell L. Davis, 28, of Topeka. The trial was to start on March 17. m.cjonline.com/news/2014-01-30/after-1999-slaying-conviction-overturned-shumway-makes-manslaughter-plea

Was she found not guilty or was the verdict of guilty overturned? I honestly don't know.

You can be tried again in the US only for certain reasons.  I haven't finished reading the story you linked to, but I suspect prosecutors were able to bring new evidence?  Not guilty in the US is not guilty unless there's some exception like new evidence.

[justme]

I think (not a lawyer), in the US if the appeals court overturns a guilty conviction the prosecutor is allowed to retry the case. It's not double jeopardy as the appeals court in the states do not determine guilty/not guilty they determine whether there was an error in the way the trial was conducted or how the law was applied and then send it back down to the lower courts that do determine guilt.

However, never in the US can a prosecutor go back after a person once they've been determined not guilty. The wrinkle is it seems the appeals court in Italy has the power to give a guilty/not guilty verdict - as I'm quite positive that is why she was allowed to leave the country, she was declared not guilty and free. If it was just overturned with a "try again, you messed up here" then I would think they could have kept her in jail. Though, I could be wrong on that since Italy is screwy compared to here.

[jkapp]

Jan 30, 2014 21:28:53 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

If Italy seeks extradition the government will no doubt send her over. Extradition treaties work both ways.

But what if an Italian citizen was tried for a crime here, acquitted, and then tried again later after having already left the U.S.  Do you honestly believe the Italian government would allow extradition of their citizen back to the U.S. after that?  I do not.

They had their chance to convict her, but failed...

[DVM gone riding]

Jan 31, 2014 6:28:27 GMT -5 marvholly said:

this is going to get messy IF the Italian supreme court upholds this verdict (automatic appeal requirewd). We have a extradition treaty with most (all?) EU countries and by those terms will be REQUIRED to send her back to Italy. If we do not we will have an even bigger mess than the NSA spying scandal since no one would ever sign any kind of treaty with us again if we pick & choose which/when to honor.

All that said & done: IMHO she is most likely NOT guilty (I am about 50/50 & that is NOT enough to convict here) and the Italian prosecutor& court are just trying to save face.

THis is what I see as the issue. I think they couldn't STAND to look stupid in the american press and so simply had to retry her and I think the bizarre way their jury system works with judges they also had face to save where our juries are not people with anything on the line on the verdict their juries are designed different.

Canada refuses to hand AMERICAN citizens over to us if we are going to try them for capital punishment. In this case we aren't talking about extraditing an Italian to them in which case I think we would for sure but an american that has more rights than just the Italian's want her.

[billisonboard]

Jan 31, 2014 22:09:18 GMT -5 DVM gone riding said:

... I think they couldn't STAND to look stupid in the american press ...

It is all about us?

[EVT1]

Jan 31, 2014 10:10:52 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Jan 31, 2014 9:59:30 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

After that conviction was overturned in 2013 by the Kansas Court of Appeals, Shumway was to be tried a second time in the clubbing death of Mitchell L. Davis, 28, of Topeka. The trial was to start on March 17. m.cjonline.com/news/2014-01-30/after-1999-slaying-conviction-overturned-shumway-makes-manslaughter-plea

Was she found not guilty or was the verdict of guilty overturned? I honestly don't know.

You can be tried again in the US only for certain reasons.  I haven't finished reading the story you linked to, but I suspect prosecutors were able to bring new evidence?  Not guilty in the US is not guilty unless there's some exception like new evidence.

Shooting from the hip eh?  Prosecutors don't get to bring new evidence- not guilty and it's over.  Things work here in favor of the defendant.  A conviction being overturned is not a finding of not guilty- it is reversible error- a flawed trial.

. 

[EVT1]

Jan 31, 2014 9:46:19 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Jan 30, 2014 22:02:41 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

That first guilty verdict being overturned and Knox freed to leave Italy may be a real problem with an extradition request.  It is going to be messy.

Correct.  The bottom line is that she can only be extradited for a crime that she could be convicted of in the US.  Having been found NOT GUILTY, that's it.  In the US, she could never be put in jeopardy again, so as long as she stays out of Italy, she's never going to be extradited- she can't legally be extradited under US laws.

Not really- your new pal Dershowitz chimed in on it:

    "Look, they let her go back to the United States, even though the case was then pending, knowing that it would be very difficult to get her back in Italy, so the Italian government may be satisfied with convicting her and then letting her spend the rest of her life in the United States -- not able to travel to Europe or to Italy, so it may resolve itself that way."

     And if an extradition request is made, the United States would likely comply, according to Dershowitz.

     "The Italian legal system, though I don't love it, is a legitimate legal system and we have a treaty with Italy so I don't see how we would resist," he told Agence France Presse.

     "I don't know why public opinion is so supportive of her innocence," said Dershowitz, who described the circumstantial case against Knox as compelling, though not overwhelming.

     "This is not a case, as it's been projected in the media, of no evidence at all. It's a case of the kind that would have resulted probably in a conviction in most courts in America. And so yet, because she is attractive, and because she has created a media campaign all over the country, she's become very popular. And I don't think we should do justice by popularity or justice by the way a person looks. This is a case for extradition."

     Dershowitz told CNN last March that, if an extradition request is made and Knox somehow avoids being sent back, "she remains a prisoner in the United States, because Interpol will put a warrant out for her and, if she travels anywhere outside the United States, she'll be immediately arrested and turned over to Italy."

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

"compelling though not overwhelming" is called reasonable doubt. And again, our extradition would only apply to a case that could be brought against her in the United States. The violation of the principle of double jeopardy is both compelling AND overwhelming.

[EVT1]

Feb 6, 2014 16:50:33 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

"compelling though not overwhelming" is called reasonable doubt. And again, our extradition would only apply to a case that could be brought against her in the United States. The violation of the principle of double jeopardy is both compelling AND overwhelming.

Where are you getting this from?  You are 100% wrong.  Not double jeopardy either.  Surely you have heard of cases in the USA where a conviction was thrown out- and a new trial was granted- by your logic they would all be set free.  They are not. 

BTW last time I checked the USA can bring charges for murder and extradition decision are not made based on the sufficiency of the evidence.  Why do you care anyway?  Does your hatred of government extend to all governments?  Are you wanting our government to involve itself in this mess?  Is that a legitimate function to you?  I don't get it.