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Post by vl on Feb 24, 2011 14:01:05 GMT -5
11,999 and counting... DOWN!
11,999 looks of fear on the wall, 11,999 looks of FEAR. If one of those crooked traders should happen to fall, 11,998 looks of fear on the wall (street). Ohhhh... 11,998 looks of fear on the wall, 11,998 looks of FEAR. If one (or more) of those crooked traders should happen to fall, 11,997 looks of fear from audit and reconciliation on the wall.
Let's all sing along now...
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Post by comokate on Feb 24, 2011 18:35:08 GMT -5
Unions are a necessary evil As long as there are people out there who would pay you sub-standard wages they will be necessary. Read more: notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=moneytalk&action=display&thread=3736&page=3#ixzz1Eu3Z4G4cThe worker "chooses" to work for the employer. If you are not paid a rate to which you believe you are worthy, leave. If enough people leave, there is no business...and then the employer will have to pay a higher rate to attract workers. Law of supply and demand works for wages also. Now that the real estate bubble burst and credit for John and Jane Doe has dried up, people are beginning to feel the reality of the income they lost through those years, voluntarily. Read more: notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=moneytalk&action=display&thread=3736&page=3#ixzz1Eu4BsIGVCredit is VERY available for those that are credit worthy. Credit has become less available to those in the lower and mid tier credit ratings. But even those are getting credit for cars again...because sub prime loans are on the rise. How can you possibly try to make this argument when employers are bleeding the US dry of jobs by outsourcing them? There isn't any realistic option, for most, to leave a job in this economy. You need to read a little more about the history of labor in the US, what wages and working conditions were like before you decide Unions are not, as MikeC pointed out, a "necessary evil". People do NOT have the choice of " if they don't like it they can just leave". How does that work out when you have a family , mortgage and need medical insurance? Employers know they have people by the cajones ( sp?). Credit is *not* "very available"...where do you come up with this from? Most banks want cash only sales for homes, credit has virtually disappeared for the average consumer. |
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Post by Steady As She Goes on Feb 24, 2011 19:25:58 GMT -5
Your looking at this basackwards como .........
You don't LEAVE a job and THEN look for a new one!!
You better yourself at your current job, look for new opportunities at BETTER pay and/or benefits, you secure a new position with a guaranteed start date ... and THEN you put your notice in at your current job.
You don't LOSE ANYTHING!!!!
Don't you get it??? Your current employer probably hired you at the pay you both agreed upon. (You probably wanted more and they wanted to pay you less ... but begrudgingly, you both agreed.) After a year or 2 or 3 ... you are now CHEAP LABOR ... even with yearly raises. Not many companies can justify bumping you up 15 or 20 or more percent ... it just doesn't happen that often. You have to take control of your destiny and hunt for that better position. Apply somewhere else ... Ask for 10 or 20K more ... let them talk you down 5K or so and settle. THEY talked you down, they're happy ... YOU got a nice RAISE, you're happy. TaDaaa!
We all have that choice ........... I can't believe how few use it.
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Post by comokate on Feb 24, 2011 20:41:19 GMT -5
Your looking at this basackwards como ......... You don't LEAVE a job and THEN look for a new one!! You better yourself at your current job, look for new opportunities at BETTER pay and/or benefits, you secure a new position with a guaranteed start date ... and THEN you put your notice in at your current job. You don't LOSE ANYTHING!!!! Don't you get it??? Your current employer probably hired you at the pay you both agreed upon. (You probably wanted more and they wanted to pay you less ... but begrudgingly, you both agreed.) After a year or 2 or 3 ... you are now CHEAP LABOR ... even with yearly raises. Not many companies can justify bumping you up 15 or 20 or more percent ... it just doesn't happen that often. You have to take control of your destiny and hunt for that better position. Apply somewhere else ... Ask for 10 or 20K more ... let them talk you down 5K or so and settle. THEY talked you down, they're happy ... YOU got a nice RAISE, you're happy. TaDaaa! We all have that choice ........... I can't believe how few use it. Your advice is incredibly ridiculous, simplistic and unrealistic. With more and more jobs, both low skilled production and highly skilled technical/IT , leaving US soil, employers are telling their employees to "take it or leave it". With no where else to go, those that still have jobs are taking less. Your assertion that you can insist upon a raise of 5-10k will find you booted, and laughed, out the door. |
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kman
Initiate Member
Joined: Oct 8, 2011 20:43:42 GMT -5
Posts: 83
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Post by kman on Feb 24, 2011 20:44:55 GMT -5
defeatist attitude. You may want to try the risk of getting laughed at first.
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Post by frankq on Feb 24, 2011 20:52:07 GMT -5
I can see both sides of this debate. The moral of the story is, pick a profession in demand, be good at it, give you employers your best effort, and you'll never have to worry about being gainfully employed. I am, however, extremely glad to have been associated with unions for just about my entire working life. Many of the things people take for granted, like the 5 day work week, came compliments of organized labor.
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kman
Initiate Member
Joined: Oct 8, 2011 20:43:42 GMT -5
Posts: 83
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Post by kman on Feb 24, 2011 20:54:41 GMT -5
I had a blast in the union..iron workers ...glazers
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Post by comokate on Feb 24, 2011 23:33:51 GMT -5
defeatist attitude. You may want to try the risk of getting laughed at first. Hardly a "defeatist attitude", absolutely a realistic attitude. Next time you're your getting your teeth cleaned at the dental office, your blood drawn at a clinic, or having a chest x-ray at the hospital, ask the worker performing the service what they anticipate the outcome of this idea would be... This might work in a sales environment, maybe. In this economy, for many of us, this would not raise concerns about getting "laughed" at , it could be a matter of losing one's job. Health care is run similarly to the military and this could be considered insubordination ( yes, that's an actual term used in our field). Not only have *many* health care workers taken a cut in wages, hours and benefits, many have been permanently laid off. Several major hospitals here let hundreds of workers, nurses included, go in the last two years. The clinic I work in made all of us part-time ( as did almost all employers of my profession), we no longer have any health care insurance ( oh the irony in that...) nor retirement plan. Personally, with my down time, I'm currently pursuing an additional degree in an entirely different field. |
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kman
Initiate Member
Joined: Oct 8, 2011 20:43:42 GMT -5
Posts: 83
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Post by kman on Feb 25, 2011 0:04:17 GMT -5
Looks like you have your ducks in order.
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Post by comokate on Feb 25, 2011 0:12:34 GMT -5
Looks like you have your ducks in order.   |
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kman
Initiate Member
Joined: Oct 8, 2011 20:43:42 GMT -5
Posts: 83
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Post by kman on Feb 25, 2011 0:24:26 GMT -5
The one with green lips is a little creepy.....George just jumped up on my desk....He will eat this weeks billing....It's time..
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Post by Steady As She Goes on Feb 25, 2011 3:27:43 GMT -5
Re-read my post ... I didn't say to ask your current employer for a 5-10K raise. I said to request 10-20K over your existing salary at a NEW company for a NEW position that you're interviewing for. When that prospective company counters our offer 5 or so K lower, you still make out better than your current salary.
So simple it works.
You keep saying NO and every suggestion is ridiculous and it just won't work ... but I've been doing it for years. My wife didn't believe it, but it worked for her as well ... even after she was laid-off for 9 months. As well as for my son ... and he's in IT. Same for my step son, nephew, brother. You're right ... it may not work for all professions, but it works in most ... unless you're not self improving or have no intention of moving up a corporate ladder (so to speak) and are only looking for the same old position over and over again.
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Post by vl on Feb 25, 2011 7:04:30 GMT -5
Fully untrue, Steady. Most men haven't recovered jobs because there hasn't been any scrutiny into whether the job posted really existed or it was a ruse to gather resumes and pass them back to employers of the searching employees. No one else ever gets a contact.
Your "laid-off" wife is a genuine anomaly. 9 months off and she got in where? Burger King? As what? Cashier? Challenger Gray Christmas tracks this stuff. It has been a routine routing out of the workforce. After you reach the last benefit extension, you drop off the tracking data. There isn't a tracking of the drop-offs. That said, if you look back to the workforce 5 years ago and lop off the eldest ages as actual retirees, you still have some 75 MILLION people either completely unemployed or struggling with one or more very low pay alternative jobs.
That figure doesn't consider the entire segment of the working class who went back to school, perpetually retake classes, were working low paying jobs previously, were home with children or are home with children now while the spouse works 2 or more jobs.
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reasonfreedom
Well-Known Member
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 8:50:21 GMT -5
Posts: 1,722
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Post by reasonfreedom on Feb 25, 2011 7:52:18 GMT -5
I hate getting into Union Debates...As bad as Religon and Politics I am a union memeber 39 years IBEW Unions are a necessary evil As long as there are people out there who would pay you sub-standard wages they will be necessary. Evil as they protect the bad worker as well as the good ones. People in my line of work who are not capable or willing to work at a level i "feel" I do get the same pay and protections I enjoy... That is the price we ALL pay for the first part. the fact that some would pay you peanuts if they could Necessary evil is just a falsehood, no evil is necessary. That is a ridiculous statement. |
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reasonfreedom
Well-Known Member
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 8:50:21 GMT -5
Posts: 1,722
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Post by reasonfreedom on Feb 25, 2011 8:02:47 GMT -5
Your looking at this basackwards como ......... You don't LEAVE a job and THEN look for a new one!! You better yourself at your current job, look for new opportunities at BETTER pay and/or benefits, you secure a new position with a guaranteed start date ... and THEN you put your notice in at your current job. You don't LOSE ANYTHING!!!! Don't you get it??? Your current employer probably hired you at the pay you both agreed upon. (You probably wanted more and they wanted to pay you less ... but begrudgingly, you both agreed.) After a year or 2 or 3 ... you are now CHEAP LABOR ... even with yearly raises. Not many companies can justify bumping you up 15 or 20 or more percent ... it just doesn't happen that often. You have to take control of your destiny and hunt for that better position. Apply somewhere else ... Ask for 10 or 20K more ... let them talk you down 5K or so and settle. THEY talked you down, they're happy ... YOU got a nice RAISE, you're happy. TaDaaa! We all have that choice ........... I can't believe how few use it. Your advice is incredibly ridiculous, simplistic and unrealistic. With more and more jobs, both low skilled production and highly skilled technical/IT , leaving US soil, employers are telling their employees to "take it or leave it". With no where else to go, those that still have jobs are taking less. Your assertion that you can insist upon a raise of 5-10k will find you booted, and laughed, out the door. I agree with you on this Kate. Corporations have a false since of efficiency nowadays plus they know with the high unemployment that anybody is replaceable. Steady's advice might work with somebody that has 30 years experience, but not somebody with little to no experience. I have noticed a lot of companies are using temp companies now(another reason why I think the middle class is deteriorating). You can tell your interviewer that you want 5 to 10k more, but more than likely they are going to tell you that you get what they are offering. You can't bargain with somebody that has 500 applications for one job, they will just tell you that they can find somebody with better experience that will take less pay. |
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Post by mikec on Feb 25, 2011 8:41:41 GMT -5
I stand by my statement that unions are a necessary evil.
People would pay peanuts if they could and the unions set the standards for what they need to pay even non-union people to do the work they need.
In my company we bargain with the VPs and every management person between us and them root for us to get as much as possible as that is what they get at the end of the day...
of course the VPs pay them selves 6 figure bonuses every year whether they deserve them or not as they try every time to cut every nickel they can from us
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Post by vl on Feb 25, 2011 14:58:03 GMT -5
If there were no more unions, Mike, one of YOU would be the VP and the current VP would be scrambling to figure out what to do to recover a six-figure income without knowing the trade or putting in a fair day's labor for it.
Personally, I'd like to see the corporate veil of anonymity abolished and if unions go, boards of directors go too. What we need is to pay the one with the skills, wisdom and guts to lead, not the degree all-too-willing to bleed us dry while spending the day at the golf course.
Think it through... any business worth being in business will quickly find a way to balance management and staff or fall apart. The assets can then be auctioned off to enterprising people who get it. Platforms-- gone. Law Firms-- gone. Banks-- hiring people who know the job, not people who give other people the business and pretending to be superior.
Wisconsin just passed the ban on collective bargaining rights. Didn't lop a penny off the debt but you can bet it made people who no longer have rights wonder if Wisconsin is worth the hassle. That loss ADDS to the debt, so, that assembly literally caused all of Wisconsin a tax INCREASE. Go GOP!!!
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Post by Steady As She Goes on Feb 26, 2011 2:18:59 GMT -5
You really like being a jerk, don't you V_L? Burger King  Nope ... she got hired by a well known engineering firm ... with (like I said) an almost 20% increase in salary from her previous salary from the firm she got laid-off from. And NO ... she doesn't have 30 years experience in her field ... only about 6 years. You don't have to believe it if you don't want. Your choice. I could care less. But it's all true. Challenges can be overcome ... we're proof. Good luck in your life challenges. |
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Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger
Senior Associate
Viva La Revolucion!
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:22:04 GMT -5
Posts: 12,758
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Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Feb 26, 2011 2:47:03 GMT -5
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Post by Steady As She Goes on Feb 26, 2011 2:58:41 GMT -5
Thanks "Ah" ... right back atcha!
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Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger
Senior Associate
Viva La Revolucion!
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:22:04 GMT -5
Posts: 12,758
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Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Feb 26, 2011 3:41:52 GMT -5
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Post by Steady As She Goes on Feb 26, 2011 4:50:03 GMT -5
No reason to go overboard "Ah" ... but thanks all the same.  Last payback ;D |
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Post by vl on Feb 26, 2011 7:44:40 GMT -5
So... your wife gets picked up by an engineering firm after 9 months unemployment with only 6 years in the field and with a 20% pay increase... over the THOUSANDS of engineers with many more years experience, who may be the breadwinner for an entire family. Why? What special talent set her apart above all the rest of the applicants?
You can try, but no one has been able to answer that one without shoving their entire foot in their mouth. YOU didn't read Kate's posts well. YOU think button pushing is here to stay, but the truth of the matter is-- companies are hiring AROUND an entire generation, not because those folks are any less qualified, but because they can CONTROL your generation through electronic devices. If you're opposed to that, put your button box down this weekend and live without it. Bet you can't.
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Post by frankq on Feb 26, 2011 10:21:03 GMT -5
V.L.
If you have the skills wanted, there is work. You attitude that everyone is working a McDonalds is way off base. The market may be soft for mortgage brokers, but engineers, HVAC people and numeric control specialists are doing pretty good these days.
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decoy409
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 27, 2010 11:17:19 GMT -5
Posts: 7,582
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Post by decoy409 on Feb 26, 2011 10:31:38 GMT -5
Frank, good morning to you. I believe this falls back into play with economics 101 Supply and Demand theory.
We certainly have the demand, but the supply is lacking production of, here at home. And this would go back to the 10,500 manufacturing plants (and counting) here in the states dilluted elswhere outside of the states.
And this is where I throw in the over population factor here at home, and lack of employment in which I base my own look at consumer demand for product, and the affordabilty their of.
Which in turn of course I look to the market and see what's hot and what's not and why some things certainly should not be hot while others are.
I do believe Frank that the perception is distorted and has been for a very long time,and as well serious corrective 'change' will have to occur in order to rebalance.
And then I blend in all of the other pertinent crazy and wild things that have been brought in for these coming times because a majority are simply unaware of what has transpired and indeed it is going to be a very awaking day for more rather than less.
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Post by mikec on Feb 26, 2011 14:22:29 GMT -5
Steady as she goes.
I would like to stick up for my friend VL. He really does not enjoy being a jerk......
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tyfighter3
Well-Known Member
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 13:01:17 GMT -5
Posts: 1,806
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Post by tyfighter3 on Feb 26, 2011 15:19:44 GMT -5
The Term ( Buy America) has never been so right as right now.
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decoy409
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 27, 2010 11:17:19 GMT -5
Posts: 7,582
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Post by decoy409 on Feb 26, 2011 16:29:07 GMT -5
I am spreading the WONDERFUL NEWS on the WALL STREET FUNDING! Just released it in The Decoy 409 Post this morning! Pull the nipple from the babies mouth, I want to hear it cry (but do it and leave this board open at the same time!  |
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Post by Steady As She Goes on Feb 26, 2011 18:08:35 GMT -5
Come on V_L ... do I really need to explain this to you? Can you really NOT see the big picture here? What make any employee hire a particular person over the other applicants. There are many MANY reasons. Surely you must know this?!?!
You're probably right in that there may be THOUSANDS of engineers out of work ... but those THOUSANDS may not ALL be in this area or applying for the same job.
NINE MONTHS V_L ... she looked for work for NINE MONTHS. That doesn't mean NO ONE was being hired during that 9 months. That doesn't mean that there were NO jobs during that time ... it doesn't mean that this was the first and only job that became available during that time ... and it doesn't mean that she was the ONLY one hired ... my wife was one of SEVERAL that were hired.
She applied for positions at several firms over that 9 months ... other engineers, who fit the needs and skills those other firms were looking for, got hired instead of her. Fortunately, there was one firm that was looking for the skill-set my wife possessed. Why can't you see that? Why, in your eyes, do you see that as wrong or being a bad thing? And why would you accuse that my wife and I are suddenly taking money out a breadwinner that needs it? I know of no employer that shares all the other applicant's personal information or circumstances with each and every applicant.
Just an observation, V_L ... but you seem to go out of your way to denigrate the good fortune of some with your ever expanding "reasons" of why it shouldn't be for the latest reason you come up with.
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Post by Steady As She Goes on Feb 26, 2011 18:28:25 GMT -5
You lost me V_L .... Where did I mention or give you the indication that I think button pushing is here to stay?  ? What generation are companies hiring around? Which companies? What generation are they trying to control? What generation do you think I'm in? Who is they? |
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