Marine delay female fitness plan when over half fail

[Miss Tequila]

www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/01/02/marines-delay-female-fitness-plan-after-half-fail-pullup-test/

More than half of female Marines in boot camp can't do three pull-ups, the minimum standard that was supposed to take effect with the new year, prompting the Marine Corps to delay the requirement, part of the process of equalizing physical standards to integrate women into combat jobs.

The delay rekindled sharp debate in the military on the question of whether women have the physical strength for some military jobs, as service branches move toward opening thousands of combat roles to them in 2016.

Although no new timetable has been set on the delayed physical requirement, Marine Corps Commandant Gen. James Amos wants training officials to "continue to gather data and ensure that female Marines are provided with the best opportunity to succeed," Capt. Maureen Krebs, a Marine spokeswoman, said Thursday.

Starting with the new year, all female Marines were supposed to be able to do at least three pull-ups on their annual physical fitness test and eight for a perfect score. The requirement was tested in 2013 on female recruits at Marine Corps Recruit Depot, Parris Island, S.C., but only 45 percent of women met the minimum, Krebs said.

The Marines had hoped to institute the pull-ups on the belief that pull-ups require the muscular strength necessary to perform common military tasks such as scaling a wall, climbing up a rope or lifting and carrying heavy munitions.

Officials felt there wasn't a medical risk to putting the new standard into effect as planned across the service, but that the risk of losing recruits and hurting retention of women already in the service was unacceptably high, she said.

I am a woman and I find this offensive.  A woman is either qualified or not...and to lower the standards or keep them low because the majority aren't able to meet them proves only one thing...that no matter how much some women want to claim "I can do anything a man can do" are lying to themselves and others.

I never understood why men and women had different standards. 

[swamp]

I can't imagine why a young and fit woman can't do 3 pull-ups. 

[Miss Tequila]

Jan 2, 2014 18:56:51 GMT -5 swamp said:

I can't imagine why a young and fit woman can't do 3 pull-ups. 

I have no upper body strength.  Even when I was young and a runner, I was never able to do one, let alone 3.  My daughter spent a few years in gymnastics (fantastic shape) and the most she ever did was two pull ups.  She could rock climb and beat a bunch of teenage boys when she was 12, but doesn't have the strength to do pull-ups...and she is all of 120 lbs so it isn't like she has a lot of weight to pull up!

[swamp]

Jan 2, 2014 19:00:29 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Jan 2, 2014 18:56:51 GMT -5 swamp said:

I can't imagine why a young and fit woman can't do 3 pull-ups. 

I have no upper body strength.  Even when I was young and a runner, I was never able to do one, let alone 3.  My daughter spent a few years in gymnastics (fantastic shape) and the most she ever did was two pull ups.  She could rock climb and beat a bunch of teenage boys when she was 12, but doesn't have the strength to do pull-ups...and she is all of 120 lbs so it isn't like she has a lot of weight to pull up!

I hung out with a bunch or swimmers. We're beasts. 

[Miss Tequila]

Jan 2, 2014 19:03:13 GMT -5 swamp said:

Jan 2, 2014 19:00:29 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

I have no upper body strength.  Even when I was young and a runner, I was never able to do one, let alone 3.  My daughter spent a few years in gymnastics (fantastic shape) and the most she ever did was two pull ups.  She could rock climb and beat a bunch of teenage boys when she was 12, but doesn't have the strength to do pull-ups...and she is all of 120 lbs so it isn't like she has a lot of weight to pull up!

I hung out with a bunch or swimmers. We're beasts. 

LOL!  I wonder what came first...your upper body strength that made you a good swimmer or all of that swimming gave you such upper body strenght?  Like I said, DD was in gymnastics for about 4 or 5 years (I'm not saying she was olympic quality!lol) and then cheerleading for several more.  She is very toned, athletic but skinny and she struggled to do pull ups. 

[swamp]

Jan 2, 2014 19:12:08 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Jan 2, 2014 19:03:13 GMT -5 swamp said:

I hung out with a bunch or swimmers. We're beasts. 

LOL!  I wonder what came first...your upper body strength that made you a good swimmer or all of that swimming gave you such upper body strenght?  Like I said, DD was in gymnastics for about 4 or 5 years (I'm not saying she was olympic quality!lol) and then cheerleading for several more.  She is very toned, athletic but skinny and she struggled to do pull ups. 

I think it's both. The good female swimmers are all broad shouldered. 

[Miss Tequila]

Jan 2, 2014 19:14:42 GMT -5 swamp said:

Jan 2, 2014 19:12:08 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

LOL!  I wonder what came first...your upper body strength that made you a good swimmer or all of that swimming gave you such upper body strenght?  Like I said, DD was in gymnastics for about 4 or 5 years (I'm not saying she was olympic quality!lol) and then cheerleading for several more.  She is very toned, athletic but skinny and she struggled to do pull ups. 

I think it's both. The good female swimmers are all broad shouldered. 

Makes sense.

[Malarky]

I was going to mention that men tend to have broader shoulders and more muscle mass, making it easier to lift their own bodyweight.

Personally, I don't have the same muscle mass as most men. Even at my fittest, I had no hope of competing with them physically on any level.

[Tennesseer]

The women simply need multiple shots of testosterone.

[zibazinski]

I find it amazing that DD went through OCS at quantico for the marines and over half of her class as well as over half the male class s isn't make it. Most of the time it was for fitness but not always. It seemed pretty even that more men failed than women did but more men started out. Less than half of both classes made it, period. She started with 70 women, 33 made it and some were cut the last 3 days before graduation. Men started out with 90 and ended up with 42. It is what it is. This was summer of 2012. 

[Miss Tequila]

Jan 2, 2014 19:31:46 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

I find it amazing that DD went through OCS at quantico for the marines and over half of her class as well as over half the male class s isn't make it. Most of the time it was for fitness but not always. It seemed pretty even that more men failed than women did but more men started out. Less than half of both classes made it, period. She started with 70 women, 33 made it and some were cut the last 3 days before graduation. Men started out with 90 and ended up with 42. It is what it is. This was summer of 2012. 

Men's standards are much higher.  I wonder how many men would have failed if they had to meet the female standards?

[swamp]

Jan 2, 2014 19:34:11 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Jan 2, 2014 19:31:46 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

I find it amazing that DD went through OCS at quantico for the marines and over half of her class as well as over half the male class s isn't make it. Most of the time it was for fitness but not always. It seemed pretty even that more men failed than women did but more men started out. Less than half of both classes made it, period. She started with 70 women, 33 made it and some were cut the last 3 days before graduation. Men started out with 90 and ended up with 42. It is what it is. This was summer of 2012. 

Men's standards are much higher.  I wonder how many men would have failed if they had to meet the female standards?

DHs nephew. 19 years old and can't do one pull up.  

[zibazinski]

DD did much better than most of the males. There's pics of her actually used still for recruitment purposes. Which is kind of funny since she didn't join after all.

[Miss Tequila]

Jan 2, 2014 19:36:08 GMT -5 swamp said:

Jan 2, 2014 19:34:11 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Men's standards are much higher.  I wonder how many men would have failed if they had to meet the female standards?

DHs nephew. 19 years old and can't do one pull up.  

Something tells me that he isn't the type of guy to try out for the marines...lol

[Miss Tequila]

Jan 2, 2014 19:36:43 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

DD did much better than most of the males. There's pics of her actually used still for recruitment purposes. Which is kind of funny since she didn't join after all.

That is awesome, zib.  I think that a female that is qualified has just as much right as a male to join the military.  Where I have an issue is lowering the standards for women.  We are either qualified or we aren't.  This proves that I"m not racist (I'm also against affirmative action!)...I don't think anyone should get preferential treatment for race, sex, etc...less so when others lives can be in jeopardy by depending on someone less than qualified.

[zibazinski]

Those "helpless" women have to carry the same weight backpacks as the men and also have to carry someone weighing 170 pounds, as in your buddy who might happen to be male that is unable to carry themselves. I'm asking DD how many pull-ups she did vs how many the men had to do. She did more, of course, because she worked damn hard to do so. I remember when you could only make presidential physical fitness by doing pull-ups in elem school and she couldn't then. She worked so darn hard to finally be able to do them and by high school, she could. The coaches of the guys sports use to shame their male athletes by pointing her out. Swimming helps for sure. She is broad shouldered.

[Miss Tequila]

Jan 2, 2014 19:41:57 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

I really do have a problem with this.  There are certain professions that absolutely require minimum ability. 

MrSroo is a FF meaning there is a higher than average probability for him that he will need assistance by a coworker. I would bet that 4 of the 6 women at his department could not drag him (or any member of the public at large) out of a fire. 

I have zero issues with women that can physically do the job. 

At his old department they hired a small statured woman.  She was having issues with the guys.  One day as MrSroo and her were talking, he told her to hang in there and it would get better.  He told her to let him know if there was anything he could do to help.  She looked at him for a minute and asked if he'd go with her out to the truck bay.  Once they got out there, she knocked him on his ass and dragged him across the bay in front of the crew.  

All of them watched, nodded, and from that day on had zero issues with her.  

For the record I have problems with some of the guys at the department, who I suspect couldn't do the job.

Those are exactly my thoughts.  I truly believe I am as good at my job as any guy could be.  But my job depends on my brains not my strength.  i would be pissed if my husband worked at a job where he relied on his co-workers for his saftey and they were not physically up to the job (male or female).

[Miss Tequila]

Jan 2, 2014 19:45:54 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Those "helpless" women have to carry the same weight backpacks as the men and also have to carry someone weighing 170 pounds, as in your buddy who might happen to be male that is unable to carry themselves. I'm asking DD how many pull-ups she did vs how many the men had to do. She did more, of course, because she worked damn hard to do so. I remember when you could only make presidential physical fitness by doing pull-ups in elem school and she couldn't then. She worked so darn hard to finally be able to do them and by high school, she could. The coaches of the guys sports use to shame their male athletes by pointing her out. Swimming helps for sure. She is broad shouldered.

But you aren't explaining why it is ok to have such lower standards.  Are the male standards too high?  Why does a man have to do something that a woman doesn't have to? 

[swamp]

Jan 2, 2014 19:37:53 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Jan 2, 2014 19:36:08 GMT -5 swamp said:

DHs nephew. 19 years old and can't do one pull up.  

Something tells me that he isn't the type of guy to try out for the marines...lol

He did try to enlist. They wouldn't take him. 

[zibazinski]

I'm not sure how much lower you are talking here. But overall, I would think the guys were in worse shape than the women to begin with. I wonder if they thought they'd get fit in the ten weeks? Unfortunately, in order to be PC, women and minorities don't have to follow the rules that white males do. I'm not saying its right. Perhaps when you have a gun, the gun equalizes the policewomen with the men but I have zero faith in firefighters that are women who can't pull my ass out of a house if necessary, or their buddies. Maybe we have some women here that are police or fire and they can shed light on how equal their qualifications are. But I have to admit, I won't go to male doctors because I'm prejudiced against them. So I have my own thing as well. According to my small arms instructors, women are better shots than men but, of course, more men shoot. I'm better than DF for which he is extremely proud and tells everyone I'm going to take out the bad guy while he hides behind the bed and loads my magazines for me.

[Miss Tequila]

Jan 2, 2014 19:53:52 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

Jan 2, 2014 19:49:25 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

But you aren't explaining why it is ok to have such lower standards.  Are the male standards too high?  Why does a man have to do something that a woman doesn't have to? 

Psst I think Zib's agreeing with you. She's saying that her daughter could do it, despite being a women. 

Yeah, I did misread that...thanks for clarifying!

[Miss Tequila]

Jan 2, 2014 19:59:35 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

I'm not sure how much lower you are talking here. But overall, I would think the guys were in worse shape than the women to begin with. I wonder if they thought they'd get fit in the ten weeks? Unfortunately, in order to be PC, women and minorities don't have to follow the rules that white males do. I'm not saying its right. Perhaps when you have a gun, the gun equalizes the policewomen with the men but I have zero faith in firefighters that are women who can't pull my ass out of a house if necessary, or their buddies. Maybe we have some women here that are police or fire and they can shed light on how equal their qualifications are. But I have to admit, I won't go to male doctors because I'm prejudiced against them. So I have my own thing as well. According to my small arms instructors, women are better shots than men but, of course, more men shoot. I'm better than DF for which he is extremely proud and tells everyone I'm going to take out the bad guy while he hides behind the bed and loads my magazines for me.

That is so funny...I won't go to a female because the thought of a female touching my hoo-ha grosses me out!lol

I did misunderstand your prior post.  I thought you were disagreeing with me.

[Deleted]

I do also kind of wonder about the two standards.

I know I'm just another data point of one, but I found I could skill up to guy strength for my weight in HS wrestling.  I'm average guy height and have broad shoulders and broad hips, clearly female in form fitting clothes.  I was very committed to wrestling for self defense training though, and got my braid buzzed off by the assistant wrestling coach along with the longer haired guys.

It took extra weight training after practice and the attitude during practice that either the coach was going to tell us to stop, or my heart would pop, but it would be one or the other before I came to halt.  I'd never really used my upper body much before, so had to start a bit from scratch.

By the end of the school year I didn't look strong, just trim and normal (the subcutaneous fat softened and hid muscles) but I could climb ropes, jump down 10 feet lightly onto concrete, cross over jump rope, slam out push ups better than half the team, and could crush people who got in my grapple radius.  I felt that I weighed X, so I would become as strong my opponents (all males) who weighed X.  It seemed logical, and proved doable.  I wrestled 189s.  My legs were still far stronger that my upper body, but my upper strength was the real deal by the end.  Guys on other teams really didn't want to lose to a girl.  Apparently I also scared guys at the gym, but normally all sorts of people pop right up to me to ask me for assistance, I look pretty approachable.  Something about a girl lifting really heavy stuff unnerves guys I guess, even if she doesn't have obvious muscle   

It surprised me when other guys in class said they could never do exercises with the weight levels I was using.  It's just doing something over and over, slowly improving, until you arrive, in my experience.  A certain amount of obedience to authority and fierceness to learn accelerates the process IME.


Anyway, just something I mull over, because of how strong I found I could get.

[DVM gone riding]

I am torn over this. So half of the female marines can't pass the planned fitness to do what exactly...if it is to be in the infantry well that can't be totally unexpected its not like all men can magically make the cut so the half of women not able to pass the fitness ready test can not possible be in the infantry (right now no woman are allowed) OR is this suppose to be the test that they are suppose to pass to BE marines period? In which case it is a bigger problem

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

...USMC's physical fitness test has to be passed twice yearly to stay in and you have to pass it to graduate boot camp in the first place... it is here that we've seen this statistic unfold... we shall see how things go...

...and, fwiw, I had no problem with gender-specific PFT/CFT minimums until combat MOSs were opened up to women... so, again, we'll see...

 

[EVT1]

Wasn't the problem with women in the military is that they cannot progress up the ranks because of not having the infantry background? 

And I agree some jobs do have some minimum qualifications- police officer for example.  A lot of times if I remember right there are different qualification standards.  Maybe it is a trade off- the men get a bonus on the physical, but the women get a bonus on the mental.
The job takes both.  And of course cops are armed  so that makes up a lot- they do not have to go hands on with a 6'5 drugged out nut- they can shoot their ass.

[Miss Tequila]

Jan 2, 2014 22:15:58 GMT -5 DVM gone riding said:

I am torn over this. So half of the female marines can't pass the planned fitness to do what exactly...if it is to be in the infantry well that can't be totally unexpected its not like all men can magically make the cut so the half of women not able to pass the fitness ready test can not possible be in the infantry (right now no woman are allowed) OR is this suppose to be the test that they are suppose to pass to BE marines period? In which case it is a bigger problem

I am on my phone now so I can't post links. I just read an article in USAtoday.com that said these 55% failed at the end of boot camp...so they failed to even become a marine. Same article said only 1% of men failed this same test at the end of boot camp.

[Sum Dum Gai]

I agree with Miss T on this. I have zero problem with females in combat roles and think they should have to register for the draft like all males do, but the military should have one physical standard and that's it. You either meet it or you don't.

The men use 220 pound dummies for firemen's carry and pull out drills by the way, so even a 140 pound woman that can do pull ups might have serious problems getting through training for combat positions.

[EVT1]

Can I expand my argument- is it OK for the army to only hire generals with infantry experience?  Is it OK to only hire police chiefs with patrol experience?  Does a general or police chief have to fight a war or fight crime directly?  Obama is commander in chief and I doubt he he went through boot camp.

Maybe instead of changing the qualifications for foot soldier we change the qualifications for chief.

[Sum Dum Gai]

Why just the top, let's make it all the way down the line. We'll have a military composed of grunts who are led from squad commanders all the way up by people with no combat experience whatsoever. What could possibly go wrong. Shit, if they need more female generals we can prioritize experience as a hair stylist or nail technician for general ranks. We'll have the greatest military ever.